I don't know anyone who is that "hardline" about it, as Snorter has suggested. I guess I am in the "hardline" group in this discussion since I require my players to use their reroll before I tell them if they pass/fail, but I'm not THAT hardline.
And regarding telling the players what kind of spell/ability is being cast/used...I see that as giving them more info than they need. If an NPC wizard is casting Dominate Person on the Fighter, I do not say "Make a Will save vs. compulsion" because the Fighter would have no idea that it's a compulsion spell. His party's wizard or cleric may use spellcraft to identify it and shout out what spell it is...that's fine, and then he can know. But if his ally spellcasters are busy doing something else and he has know way to know that a compulsion spell is being cast, I'm not going to give that to him for free. And we usually don't have a dwarf, an elf, and a paladin in the group anyway, so we usually don't have a ton of questions, and even if we do have a race with a specific bonus, they will usually tell me "My save is 14, 16 if it's a spell" or "My save is 18, 20 if it's an enchantment."
Yeah, I don't let party members use their spell craft check to tell what's going on either unless they are affected. Things are happening too fast in combat for the cleric to tell the fighter he's about to be hit with a hold person spell. AFTER the spell is cast (whether saved or no), then the spellcrafter of the party can ask me what it is.
Next to perception , spellcraft is a very handy thing to have in my games :D
What happens when they make a Perception check to see what is going on? How do you handle talking in combat? Are they too busy to hear that too? For any verbal spell, you're going to hear the mumbo-jumbo they're saying. What's different from processing those sounds to figure out their meaning (aka: spellcraft) from processing sounds to figure out what your ally just said to you?
We even announce AC and DR once a fight gets going, so one guy can be making his rolls and adding up damage while the next guy makes his move on the board.
In the end, you don't lose much suspense by telling the guys what they're looking for on the roll, and it makes the game flow faster, which is a huge problem in Pathfinder.
Just about the only roll we don't make the DC known up front is perception, for obvious reasons.
Any character can automatically see if someone in range is casting on them (if the enemy is specifically hding, long range, etc, I may have a perception check done first). Spellcraft is used to tell WHAT that enemy is casting on you. And since casting happens quite quickly in PF, the PC who is being affected must make the spellcraft check if he wants to know what he is being hit with. His friends can make the check too, but I wouldn't annouce it to them until after it hits, since he would hear what I say at the table. My general rule is that there's not enough time once a spellcaster starts a normal spell for a seperate person to identify it, yell "Hey, Hold Person coming your way" *and* for the PC to decide what to do about it. The decision has to be made on the fly by the targeted PC.
Yeah, I don't let party members use their spell craft check to tell what's going on either unless they are affected. Things are happening too fast in combat for the cleric to tell the fighter he's about to be hit with a hold person spell. AFTER the spell is cast (whether saved or no), then the spellcrafter of the party can ask me what it is.
This basically nerfs counterspelling to death, you know.
Chances are if you are into counterspelling, you are also the one with the team's highest spellcrafting :)
If you're counterspelling, I belive, you have to hold an action to react to the enemy casting. In that case, then, yes, you could identify and counter that spell if you have the right things memorized. Sure. That does NOT mean, however, that the target of that spell should know what the enemy is casting (and, in turn, be able to use that knowledge to determine if he wants to reroll a save). It's been a long time since I've even had a player attempt a counterspell, but if it was, for whatever reason, necessary for him to know before I annouced the results, I would give him a note with the info.
Chances are if you are into counterspelling, you are also the one with the team's highest spellcrafting :)
If you're counterspelling, I belive, you have to hold an action to react to the enemy casting. In that case, then, yes, you could identify and counter that spell if you have the right things memorized. Sure. That does NOT mean, however, that the target of that spell should know what the enemy is casting (and, in turn, be able to use that knowledge to determine if he wants to reroll a save). It's been a long time since I've even had a player attempt a counterspell, but if it was, for whatever reason, necessary for him to know before I annouced the results, I would give him a note with the info.
then they should be able to tell the other player. If they recognize the spell, speech is but a free action
In my groups there's no "rule" as to whether you MUST say the DC before or after... but sometimes there are reasons you don't want to reveal the DC -- for opposed rolls for example, if I tell you an NPC's Bluff result before you make your Sense Motive check, then you know if you've failed--where the whole point if he's bluffed you, you shouldn't know, right? Sometimes concealing a DC discourages metagaming.
And sometimes I want to know your exact result, especially for a skill or ability check, because I want to judge based on degree of success or failure. If I say, "make a DC 10 skill check" someone might just say, "Okay I got it," whereas if I say, "Make a Knowledge check, just tell me the result you get," and they say, "34," then they REALLY beat that DC 10 check and I can tell them more information than I otherwise would have.
On the other hand, sometimes it's just easier to shout out the DC and tell me whether they hit or not. In fact I commonly commit a grievous faux pas and give out the ACs of the enemies. Why?
Well, it starts with that I ran a 14-19th level campaign for 2 years. I discovered trying to make the players guess the AC just led to endless combat--did I hit? Did I hit? Did I hit? Did I hit now? It was just easier to say the ACs up front and then they could do all their rolling and tell me whether they hit or not (I trust them to evaluate/calculate fairly--indeed, one of my players tends to forget bonuses and say he's missed when he hasn't...).
So it's all about judging what's best for the situation and what works best for your players.
And AS FOR reroll abilities or "roll 2 dice, keep best" type things--normally these are abilities that are fairly limited use. Whether you know the DC or not, they should generally be saved for when the best result possible is absolutely essential -- for example, when you absolutely MUST succeed on the Bluff or Acrobatics check. So while it can be a dilemma for the player, it shouldn't pop up too frequently, I don't think.
If you want to be an obliging GM but not give away the DC, you could always give a gentle, "This is going to be hard, so remember you have that roll twice ability..." That way you don't give the full game away but it gives a hint to the player to consider it.
then they should be able to tell the other player. If they recognize the spell, speech is but a free action
He can but only after the spell has been cast, not before the player makes the hero point decision.
"Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. "
That limits thing is really up to the GM. I believe that it DOES take you a second or two to identify what spell is being cast and another few seconds to say something to a friend. By the time, the spell is cast. If you're holding an action to counter spell, you're too busy identifying and then immediately casting the counter to yell to your friend what is about to happen to him/her.
Why is telling the AC such a big deal? Its a hell of a time saver sometimes.
Regarding it taking awhile (relatively speaking) to identify a spell, I guess that is up to the GM but to me, it seems like a free action should be free. I mean, if you are super well versed in something, like a wizard would be regarding spells, then just a slight gesture combined with the beginnings of a phrase would be enough. Kinda like that old game show Name That Tune. Just the very beginning would be enough. Especially considering that they wouldn't be counteracting the spell, there wouldn't be anything the target could do to stop it, ergo IMO there would be no reason not to allow the free action announcement
@JCServant:
Sorry; I was under the impression that you wouldn't let someone make their Spellcraft roll against a spell that didn't affect them rather than simply restricting them from telling anybody about the result. Re: the latter, hey, it's your table. It seems to be solving a problem that doesn't need solving, though. 19 times out of 20, the listener won't be able to do anything in response to the information anyway. 1 time out of 100 might make for one of those heroic moments that people talk about long after the session is over. Might as well let 'em have their fun.
Well, players earn and burn an average of 1 hero point / session. Then there are a couple of item/spells which can give them a temp hero point here and there. So, yeah, I see them at my table used more often than most. :)
I gave my RP flavored reason for not allowing this above, but it is backed by a different line of reasoning as well.
From a meta standpoint, Blahpers, hero points are pretty darn powerful. They take the power of the DM to fudge dice rolls, and put that in the hands of the player. Having used them for over a year in several campaigns, I really do like them. However, as written, they are very powerful.
If I let everyone roll spellcraft every time an enemy casts a spell, so that if anyone in the party rolls the DC I inform all the players about the spell being cast, then the victim will know what he's going to be hit with 90% of the time because someone is BOUND to get that spellcraft roll. Making this knowledge nearly a sure thing makes what is already a powerful ability that much more powerful. Now, players can have that ability (To spellcraft a majority of spells they are being hit with), but it requires an investment of skill points.
If I was not using the hero point system, and we only has the feats that allow a reroll once/day, then I would contemplate doing exactly what you suggest. The feat to reroll once/day feels awefully underpowered IMHO (and very few players I know take them), so it may as well be used when it really matters the most. But, that's just me.
Fair enough. I didn't take the hero point system into account when I made the "19 times out of 20" statement above. Never used it myself.
It's a pretty fun system, actually. I never 'fudge' dice rolls anymore. I let the players have the power. (After all, the dice can be mighty evil at times). They also enjoy receiving hero points for doing the journal, super heroic moments, good RP, etc. Since I keep everyone at the same XP level in the party, it's a good way to reward them for going above and beyond.