There's probably no such thing as a truly "broken" synthesist - they're good, but not invulnerable. As for the number of attacks: there's a maximum, based on the summoner's class level; starting at three and maxing at seven.
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As for the number of attacks: there's a maximum, based on the summoner's class level; starting at three and maxing at seven.
Isn't that just for natural attacks? I didn't think it applied to weapon attacks, assuming you had enough arms to wield a butt load of weapons.
Max. Attacks
This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
As for the number of attacks: there's a maximum, based on the summoner's class level; starting at three and maxing at seven.Isn't that just for natural attacks? I didn't think it applied to weapon attacks, assuming you had enough arms to wield a butt load of weapons.
Max. Attacks
This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
Holy crap. I didn't see that part.
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This feat comes to mind...
Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks
with multiple weapons.Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons
are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with
off hands.Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty
on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty
on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one
primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-
Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting
feat for creatures with more than two arms.
Along those lines, If an eidolon has 10 pairs of limbs, how does one determine which attacks are primary and which are secondary? If each pair of limbs holds two flails, is that 10 primary and 10 secondary attacks? If each pair of limbs holds one two-handed weapon, is that 10 primary attacks?
Given the text of Multiweapon Fighting, I would guess that one hand is the main hand and all the rest are offhand. For two-handed weapons, it would be reasonable to say that one of the weapons was a main-hand attack and the others used the offhand penalties (as if a human TWFed with a greatsword and, say, an unarmed strike, for the sake of argument).
Note that this is only if the extra hands provide more attacks than normal. If you have eight arms and four greatswords but have a high enough BAB to get four attacks (e.g., +16/+11/+6/+1), you can make one attack with each greatsword if you wish, and no TWF penalties apply.
That seems strange to me. So fighting with four greatswords would be functionally the same as fighting with one greatsword? If you have a BAB of +16, you would get +16/+11/+6/+1 either way?
Only if you don't use TWF. The same character could make four attacks with one greatsword as well without using TWF.
Then TWF comes into play. You can make four attacks with one greatsword using the iterative attack BAB and main-hand penalty, then one attack with each other greatsword as offhand attacks. (Note that at that point you're often better off with one-handed weapons for your off-hand attacks--you'll get way more attacks.)
It'd be 16/11/6/1 and three 11s mixed in wherever. Note that this is before the TWF penalties (in this case, -6/-6/-6/-6 and three -10s). Also, note that you can decide which hand is the main hand every time you make a full attack; there is no real handedness in PF.
Switch the greatswords out for daggers and you get 16/11/6/1 and seven (!) 11s, and the penalties go down to -4/-4/-4/-4 and seven -8s. Add MWF and you get -2s for all eleven attacks.
Multiarmed creatures are beastly.
Actually, don't the offhand attacks use your highest BAB as the base, now that I think of it? Hmm. Gonna have to look into that.
Edit: Yes, I'm pretty certain. So all those offhand 11s are actually offhand 16s.
I would say it is very advantaged in a low level point buy game (since you can use strength and dex as dump stats, max out your mental attributes, climb into your eidolon and use it's strength.
My favorite moment of lower level power came from the combination of a reach weapon of the eidolon's size, and the fact that enlarge person is a summoner spell...
... the enemy caster was not ready to be in the middle of a large-sized reach weapon death zone.
If you are rolling for stats instead of buying them, the statistical advantage of the synthesist is less pronounced. Also, they don't keep getting 'double' hit dice for ever, so if you look pasts 1st and 2nd level, they aren't as ridiculous as they appear the 1st time you are teamed up with one in a 1st level party, and the summoner seems like something of a glory hog.
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Theres also the practicality of having that many attacks.
One you have to outfit every arm and weapons get expensive if you want magic on them.
The other problem is annoying your fellow players if you have to make 8+ attacks a round as this can take a while. This is why my Synthesist prefers a nice greatsword.
Also the question is kind of flawed as there is no "Best" summoner due to the flexibility of the class.
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Think "Reach" would apply to all attacks made with a specific type of weapon? Say, the 12 daggers the Eidolon has?
Reach (Ex)
One of an eidolon’s attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon’s reach with that attack increases by 5 feet. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
I'm making a build, will let you guys know when it is complete.
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Here is what I got so far. I'm torn on what weapon to use - should I stick with tons of daggers, or should I break out a feat for a weapon proficiency with a good two handed exotic weapon. I'm leaning towards the two handed, so that I can get primary attacks and help overcome DR.
I'm also conflicted about spell resistance. Obviously, an eidolon has a lot to lose to spells. Should Spell resistance be a high priority?
Anywho, here it is:
We are looking at a few things with this Eidolon. We want plenty of attacks, but we also want to make sure that he stays relatively tankish. Also, we really want pounce for those full round attacks. Let's get to it!
We are going to use the quadruped build for this, because he is the only guy that can get pounce. Now, the main drawback of this is that his "bad" save is will - something which will be a problem again and again. However, pounce is just too good to overlook, so we are going to try to mitigate the low will with feats and such. Don't forget that we are a Half elf, which means we get an additional 1 evolution point every four levels!
Why are we wielding so many weapons instead of using natural attacks? Because natural attacks cost evolution points. Each pair of claws costs three points - two for the limbs and one for the claws. Also, these only deal d4 damage. However, equipping a pair of limbs with a manufactured weapon only costs two evolution points (for the limbs). Damage here is important, but we are also trying to tank out, so evolution points are scarce.
Though being Huge is awesome, sometimes it's just not realistic. I've included alternatives for simply being large at level 16 and 20. If even being large is too much, simply replace it with two sets of limbs.
We are always going to have bite and two pairs of limbs (legs).
Level (Evolution Pool)
Level 1 (3): Pounce, Limbs.
Level 4 (5): Pounce, Limbs, Limbs.
Level 8 (13): Pounce, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Limbs, Limbs, Limbs, Large
Level 12 (19): Pounce, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Limbs, Limbs, Limbs, Damage Reduction 10, Large
Level 16 (25): Pounce, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Limbs, Limbs, Limbs, Damage Reduction 10, Huge
Level 16 (25) for smaller dungeons: Pounce, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Limbs, Limbs, Limbs, Limbs, Limbs Damage Reduction 10, Large
Level 20 (31): Pounce, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Limbs, Limbs, Limbs, Limbs, Damage Reduction 10, Huge, Spell Resistance
Level 20 (31) for smaller dungeons: Pounce, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Limbs, Limbs, Limbs, Limbs, Limbs, Limbs, Damage Reduction 10, Large, Spell Resistance
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Though I am wondering - can I even take multiweapon fighting as a feat?
And I am still confused about number of attacks. Let's say that the Eidolon is wielding 3 elven curve blades, and his BAB is +11.
Without any feats: 11/6/1
With multiweapon fighting? or Two Weapon Fighting?: 11/11/11/11/6/1. Because none of these weapons are on an off hand?
Does Two-weapon fighting apply to more than two weapons?
Aren't all of the weapons 'off hand' except one?
"Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms."
You'll also notice that the Eidolon's Base attack Bonus is not rendered with iterative attacks. I think that is intentional, as the Multi-attack feature they get at 7th covers their iterative attack ability.
So... your level 16 millipede with its base two claws and 6 armss would get...
Claw/Claw/ 1 additional Claw at -5 (see multiattack)all secondary(-5)
and then 1 primary one handed weapon attack and 5 1-handed secondary attacks.
In any case, all the weapon attacks are at -4 from the Multiweapon fighting. The secondary claw attacks are at -5/-5/-10
Think "Reach" would apply to all attacks made with a specific type of weapon? Say, the 12 daggers the Eidolon has?
Reach (Ex)
One of an eidolon’s attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon’s reach with that attack increases by 5 feet. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
I'm making a build, will let you guys know when it is complete.
As i understand the evolutions, an "attack" the eidolon has is one that is inherent to the creature. Ultimately a GM call, but I doubt any of the GM's that I play with would let that slide.
You probably be better off dropping the last pair of limbs, and paying for the claws... all the natural weapons are Primary attack (full BAB/ full Str to dmg) and a single evo point enchants them all as magic, 2 more points gives +1d6 energy damage to all of them, and most GMs would rule the improved damage evo (1 point) would apply to all the attacks of the same type "claws"
You will swing less... miss less... and your game master will probably respect you more.
btw, I didn't see this in your build, so you should include the non-proficiency penalty in you math
Weapon Training (Ex)(2points): An eidolon learns to use a weapon, gaining Simple Weapon Proficiency as a bonus feat. If 2 additional evolution points are spent, it gains proficiency with all martial weapons as well.
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Thanks for the advice MC! Right now, I have him/the summoner gaining exotic weapon proficiency as a feat to use the elven curve blade (which has a nice crit range). Also, the angry caterpillar isn't really making natural attacks - he is making attacks with weapons, so the magic/+1d6 energy damage couldn't apply.
I'm considering picking up a one-handed light weapon instead (either the dagger so I don't have to waste a feat or something else - summoners have simple weapon proficiencies). That would decrease the penalties by less, and give him more opportunities to apply his massive strength to damage and attack.
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You probably be better off dropping the last pair of limbs, and paying for the claws... all the natural weapons are Primary attack (full BAB/ full Str to dmg) and a single evo point enchants them all as magic, 2 more points gives +1d6 energy damage to all of them, and most GMs would rule the improved damage evo (1 point) would apply to all the attacks of the same type "claws"
Personally, for a Synthesist I'd just use the Arcane Strike feat instead of spending an evo point. That gets you magic weapons and bonus damage. That's not to mention (Greater) Magic Fang.
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You asked for awesome "broken" builds. I threw this together many moons ago, ostensibly for a one-off duel against another player (long story).
Jonah Sunstar
LG Female Gnome Paladin 2/Summoner 12
Str 5
Dex 9/13
Con 16/20
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 22/28
Fort 18/20
Ref 12/14
Will 20
170 HP
Feats:
1 Toughness
3 Weapon Finesse
5 Point Blank Shot
7 Rapid Shot
9 Manyshot
11 Combat Casting
13 Dimensional Agility
Spells
4 (5/day)- Wall of Stone, Dismissal, Greater Evolution Surge, Teleport
3 (6/day)- Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Dispel Magic
2 (7/day)- Summon Eidelon, Haste, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Slow
1 (8/day)- Feather Fall, Grease, Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Protection from Chaos, Summon Minor Monster
Eidelon - Serpentine Form
Str 17
Dex 28/32
Con 14/18
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 22/28
AC: 41 (42 w/Haste, 46 w/Haste + Mage Armor)
Touch AC: 21/22 Hasted
Fort: 24
Reflex: 28 (Evasion)
Will: 27 (+4 vs Enchantments)
Initiative: +11
120HP
Evolutions:
Limbs (arms) 2
+6 Dex 6
+4 Natural Armor 2
23 Spell Resistance 4
Flight 2
Gear:
Headband of Charisma +6 (36k)
Ring of Freedom of Movement (40k)
Ring of Delayed Doom x3 (15k)
Necklace of Adaptation (9k)
Belt of Physical Might Dex/Con +4 (40k)
Magic Intelligent Seeking Compound Longbow +1 (+3 Strength), Echolocation 1/day (27.4k)
Agile Rapier +1 (8k)
Efficient Quiver (1.8k)
60 Arrows, Cold Iron (.06k)
10 Arrows, Adamantine (.6k)
Spell Component Pouch (.05k)
Stoneskin Components x 2 (.5k)
Scroll of Stoneskin x2 (1.5k)
Scroll of Greater Invisibility (.525k)
Scroll of Rejuvenate Eidelon (.525k)
Handy Haversack (2k)
Hat of Disguise (1.8k)
Total: 184.17
So she's fairly versatile, both in and out of combat. Eidelon'd up, she's pretty much a glass cannon, without the glass. I put her attack at a +23 with a masterwork ranged or finesse weapon, and with an AC in the 40's, Touch AC in the 20's (both before things like Haste or Mage Armor), and almost 300 combined HP to play with (not counting Stoneskin or Rejuvenate Eidelon), she's no slouch as a tank. She could also pick up a shield if a tank was what was really needed.
I didn't bother with skills at this level, but I imagine her diplomacy score would be sky high, so as a face or a spy I think she'd do pretty well, especially with Alter Self and a Hat of Disguise at her disposal.
She's no dedicated healer, but in a pinch she can even lay on hands to heal a d6 worth of damage ten times a day. May seem piddly at level 14, but bear in mind that magical healing will stabilize a dying ally.
Even in her Gnome form, she's not bad. If she's woken up in the middle of the night, she could start firing off 6th level Summon Monsters as a standard action, and she can sleep in Elven Chain, if need be. She's also not terrible as a controller, with stuff like Black Tentacles and Wall of Stone to supplement the critters. No arcane spell failure for SLA's means that she can strap on Full Plate and fire off those Summons every round, and DimDoor when she needs to (no somatic component, no arcane failure).
What's she bad at? Sneaking and skill monkeying. Which Greater Evolution Surge could fix.
What's her weakness? Um... Maze (if it can get through her SR). Tetori Monk (Evolution Surge can add the Grab and Constrict Evolutions, though). Anti-Paladin (maybe).
This is about the best build I ever put together for any class, not just Synthesist. I liked it so much that, when the duel never actually materialized, I decided to start this character from level one. I'm currently slogging her through level two as a straight Paladin, with a slightly different point spread (20 pt build, STR 5, DEX 10, CON 17, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 18). With 28 HP, a 17ish AC, she basically gets a shot off with the light xbow and then holds up her shield and acts as a punching bag for the bad guys, whilst gunslinger, druid, wizard buddies clean up the kobolds. Can't wait for level 3.
Captain America was the inspiration for this character, btw.