I'm looking at Oterisk's guide and it seems like the Bard isn't the most optimal choice for DD.
If I end up playing this character, I'll end up being level 8, heading over the hill into the higher levels soon enough.
What do you think the best build would be for a Dragon Disciple in general?
Can a Bard keep up with those?
My character is currently an Oracle, and I'm making this character as a Backup character.
I like the Bard because I could bring back an old character I was playing. I was thinking of going with Savage Skald because I don't want to give up Versatile Performance with Arcane Duelist.
I was looking at builds that incorporated a couple of levels of Barbarian for the beast totem, and that appeals to me, but then I miss out on the 6th spell level of Bard - though I'd probably never reach that point anyway.
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If going Bard/DD your primary goal is (and should be) ridiculous melee capability boosted by Bard Buff Spells. It's the only thing that particular build really excels at above, say, a Sorcerer/DD.
So, max your Strength, go Half-Orc or Half-elf for the two handed weapon proficiency, grab Arcane Strike, and Power Attack, and go to town. Your defenses should be pretty good, if you can arrange that, and shored up by spells as well.
Performance-wise, you want 7 levels of Bard to get starting one as a Move Action (this will also get you two Versatile Performances, and over 20 rounds of Performance a day, which ought to do) so get those immediately. You can go DD from then on until you decide to stop.
Spell-wise, your CL will suffer some, and your focus on Str may hurt DC, so I'd focus on various buff spells, both offensive (like Good Hope) and defensive (like Mirror Image).
Honestly, though? I'd just go straight melee Bard. The benefits of DD aren't worth the costs for you. Hell, I'm not sure they're worth them for a Sorcerer.
I'm going to run some numbers in a bit here with Shoelessinsight's DPR calculator...
But wouldn't Human be the equivalent of the Half-Elf in the end? The bonus feat could be used as an Exotic Weapon proficiency if I want, but couldn't I just focus on natural attacks to a degree and keep a sword and board for when I run out of Claw time?
While in Dragon Form, I'd get 5 natural attacks all enhanced by Arcane Strike after all.
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I'm going to run some numbers in a bit here with Shoelessinsight's DPR calculator...
Good call.
But wouldn't Human be the equivalent of the Half-Elf in the end? The bonus feat could be used as an Exotic Weapon proficiency if I want,
Everything else Half Elves get is better than +1 Skill Point per level.
but couldn't I just focus on natural attacks to a degree and keep a sword and board for when I run out of Claw time?
You really only have those for something less than ten rounds a day.
While in Dragon Form, I'd get 5 natural attacks all enhanced by Arcane Strike after all.
And this you have for five minutes once a day. A level before a straight Bard gets his third attack without it.
Hmm... It's looking like a Melee Bard isn't adding up in general, much less as a Dragon Disciple.
The DD has one advantage over the straight bard though, and that's the extra bite attack. It adds about 10 damage per round at level 14 in comparison to just attacking with a greatsword. The +2 strength is slightly better at that level than the +3 he'd be getting from inspire courage too (Though straight I have the option of activating Inspire Courage as a Swift action instead of a Move.)
Both the builds I've got laid out get their 3rd attacks at level 15.
Dragon form is about 4 damage less than the party's barbarian, at least with Multiattack and using Arcane Strike.
This is before factoring in Inspire Courage on the Barbarian, which adds about 22 damage to the barbarian in comparison to the straight bard's 33.
Actually, that's probably the best argument for the Straight Melee Bard - and that's the extra effect of his inspire courage...
However, Just did a straight damage comparison with a normal bard...
Greatsword + Bite is a difference of 39 damage a round vs. 53 damage with the Bite and the Strength Modifiers.
However, the Barbarian does enjoy a +10 to his damage each round from inspire courage... It's looking like the DD edges out here...
If you want to do the Bard/DD I'd use one of those melee oriented Archetypes:
- Arcane Duelist: Arcane strike as bonus feat and later some anti-caster bonus feats. One Stong buff later than you want to go, at level 10 he gets medium armor prof and can cast in medium armor.
- Dawnflower Dervish: Has to be a follower of Sarenrae but gets Dervish dance as bonus feat without needing weapon finesse. Good if you want to build around Dex instead of Strength. His inspire courage only buffs himself but with double the bonus.
Dervish Dancer: At first glance similar to the dawnflower dervish but very different at second. He doesn't get dervish dance but later on his Battle dance is stronger, granting him haste (6th level) and improved critical (8th level).
Let's talk a little more about Half Elf vs. Human.
Half Elves get:
- Low-Light Vision
- Elf Blood (When does THAT come up :P)
- Immunity to sleep and +2 vs. Enchantments
- +2 perception
- Falchion Proficiency
- Ability to get Favored Class bonus from DD
Humans get:
- Bonus Feat (Could be spent on Falchion Proficiency)
- +1 skill point per level which is in addition to the favored class bonus he can get for a bard, which could get him more spells known...
I think you're probably right that Half-Elf is better. You could even argue that the extra round of Bardic Performance per day mitigates the level loss from DD.
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Hmm... It's looking like a Melee Bard isn't adding up in general, much less as a Dragon Disciple.
Toss on some buff spells and you'll look a lot better, I suspect. these'll be basically identical for the two builds, though.
Actually, that's probably the best argument for the Straight Melee Bard - and that's the extra effect of his inspire courage...
However, Just did a straight damage comparison with a normal bard...
Greatsword + Bite is a difference of 39 damage a round vs. 53 damage with the Bite and the Strength Modifiers.
However, the Barbarian does enjoy a +10 to his damage each round from inspire courage... It's looking like the DD edges out here...
Only for the 3+Cha rounds per day you have the bite available. If you go full Bard you can keep the Performance going basically all fight every fight. And remember the Healing Paladin, Archer, and Rogue, who will all also recieve the Inspire Courage bonus. Every +1 to hit actually tends to really jack up Rogue damage in particular.
Your casting is also two levels behind, and you lose out on things like Virtuoso Performance with Inspire Courage and Inspire Heroics to realy jack up the party as a whole for that one big fight.
Plus, on the non-combat side of things, losing 4 skill points a level for 1 HP a level is a crappy trade. I guess it goes down to 3 a level once the Int bonus kicks in...but that's still not that good a deal.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
Since when do you get Fav Class bonus from/for PrCs?
With the APG allowed I'd take the Alternate Racial Trait of a Human bard, who's getting +1 spell known at each level over +1 round/day of bardic performance as Half-Elf anytime .
Besides, why do you need all the skill points? You've got a rogue in your group already - let him/her cover that. With 6+Int (+1 for being human) for the first 7 levels should give you most/all of the skills you'll ever need.
Why do you need falchion proficiency? Are you going for the crit range? Otherwise I'd grab a longsword and wield it as a two-handed weapon. Have you thought about using a longspear for reach purposes and go combat reflexes/lunge/step up/battle field controlling-style-route (or something similar)?
If you want to have all the iconic bard stuff, stay vanilla bard, grab Arcane Strike at first level as bonus feat for being a Human and build your char from there.
To me, you need to make a choice whether you want to keep up in pure damage dealing with e. g. the barbarian (which you never will, IMO) or you want to have a tiny bit more versatility and keep your skill points at a maximum.
The bard/DD combo is a great concept (what in PF beats a dragon-like looking PC soaring in the skies on his own wings? I mean, c'mon!), which I really like and will play as next PC, should my ranger die. Since we do 4d6, drop lowest and allow rerolling should a "heroic mean" of 72 for an array of the 6 stats not be reached, I hope for high STR and high Cha to get more out of my claw/claw/bite.
Anyways, I am curious what your final build will be - please keep us/me posted!
Ruyan.
Hmm... It's looking like a Melee Bard isn't adding up in general, much less as a Dragon Disciple.Toss on some buff spells and you'll look a lot better, I suspect. these'll be basically identical for the two builds, though.
Actually, that's probably the best argument for the Straight Melee Bard - and that's the extra effect of his inspire courage...
However, Just did a straight damage comparison with a normal bard...
Greatsword + Bite is a difference of 39 damage a round vs. 53 damage with the Bite and the Strength Modifiers.
However, the Barbarian does enjoy a +10 to his damage each round from inspire courage... It's looking like the DD edges out here...
Only for the 3+Cha rounds per day you have the bite available. If you go full Bard you can keep the Performance going basically all fight every fight. And remember the Healing Paladin, Archer, and Rogue, who will all also recieve the Inspire Courage bonus. Every +1 to hit actually tends to really jack up Rogue damage in particular.
Your casting is also two levels behind, and you lose out on things like Virtuoso Performance with Inspire Courage and Inspire Heroics to realy jack up the party as a whole for that one big fight.
Plus, on the non-combat side of things, losing 4 skill points a level for 1 HP a level is a crappy trade. I guess it goes down to 3 a level once the Int bonus kicks in...but that's still not that good a deal.
Huh, I guess I skim read the bite being only out when the claws were thing...
That DOES make a difference.
Also, wouldn't it be an average of 2 HP a level because of the d12 hp vs d8 (or at least 1 and some change)? And then once the Constitution bonus hits, it becomes 2-3 HP a level.
Still, that does nothing for DAMAGE which is kind of the point of this glass cannon build.
And you're right, I'm not factoring in the Rogue which could mean a big difference.
Well drat, it doesn't look like this PrC is working out after all. Here I thought I found a PrC I'd actually like.
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I'm looking at Oterisk's guide and it seems like the Bard isn't the most optimal choice for DD.
If I end up playing this character, I'll end up being level 8, heading over the hill into the higher levels soon enough.
What do you think the best build would be for a Dragon Disciple in general?
Can a Bard keep up with those?
Something to seriously consider - the Eldritch Heritage feat line for the Orcish Bloodline. Particularly suited for Half-Orc.
My primary is a Paladin 11/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 8. I pretty much chose my spells for utility and focused on being a potent melee combatant. The strength bonuses and natural armor bonuses from those feats stack with those offered by Dragon Disciple, granting me an unenhanced 30 Strength and +7 Natural Armor bonus at level 17 - which gets bumped up to 36 Strength and +11 Natural armor bonus when I use Power of Giants which I pretty much always do. At higher levels he also keeps the battlefield perma-shaken due to Dreadful Carnage which is a nice bonus. The character is utterly indomitable, and that doesn't include Smite Evil or the trait Opportunistic Gambler for use with Touch of Rage. Damage-wise he flat out smokes Barbarians or anyone else I've come across and he's much, much more survivable with Paladin immunities, ridiculously high saves and high armor class, swift self-heals and spells. Let me know if you want the build.
In your case I'd consider something like 7 levels of Bard then 4 levels of DD then 9 more levels of Bard, taking the Eldritch Heritage feats along the way. That will only cost you 1 level of spell-casting ability but you'll get +4 Strength, +2 Natural Armor, your Dragon Bite and your Breath Weapon out of the deal... and then all of the Orc Bloodline benefits as well.
Just my 2 cp.
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I'm looking at Oterisk's guide and it seems like the Bard isn't the most optimal choice for DD.
If I end up playing this character, I'll end up being level 8, heading over the hill into the higher levels soon enough.
What do you think the best build would be for a Dragon Disciple in general?
Can a Bard keep up with those?
Also something to consider - five characters that already appear to be optimized for damage, you might just be better off making a Bard as a pure support character. I recently finished one for my group who is in the same situation, a Geisha-Bard based on the Inara Serra character from Firefly and she's working out superbly. She buffs, heals, faces and uses some pretty powerful control spells to handle threats the rest of the party can't simply blast into oblivion. She could never keep up with any of them damage-wise so she doesn't try to, instead focusing on excelling in areas the rest of them lack. The truth is, she probably deals more damage than anyone else in the party once you consider the damage buffs to every attack from Inspire Courage, the 1d6 damage bonus to every attack from the Discordant Voice feat and the bonuses she grants to attack rolls from Inspire Courage and spells like Good Hope. Remember, every time they hit when they otherwise wouldn't have without your buffs, that's basically damage YOU dealt.
Just a thought.
If you really want to deal damage, just go fighter 1/Bard 4 then your levels of dragon disciple. But that's not the best way to play a DD imho.
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Huh, I guess I skim read the bite being only out when the claws were thing...
That DOES make a difference.
Yeah, it's unfortunate.
Also, wouldn't it be an average of 2 HP a level because of the d12 hp vs d8 (or at least 1 and some change)? And then once the Constitution bonus hits, it becomes 2-3 HP a level.
I'm counting FC being added to HP. You're right about the Con though.
Still, that does nothing for DAMAGE which is kind of the point of this glass cannon build.
Bard's a great class but maybe not the best ever for being a cannon of any sort.
And you're right, I'm not factoring in the Rogue which could mean a big difference.
Yeah, Rogues tend to benefit a lot from Bards or other to-hit bonuses.
Well drat, it doesn't look like this PrC is working out after all. Here I thought I found a PrC I'd actually like.
There are builds where it's good...Bard/DD is just not really one of them.
A Bard isn't the best DD in my opinion as well. The sample build of a bard in my guide is the best build I've seen for them, but since the strict beast build is not the best DD build, and in fact loses in damage contests with most straight melee classes.
Some of the best stuff for your DD comes through the bloodline, and so I really recommend the Sorcerer route. The Summoner is a little cheesy, but you get a wand monkey and some early entry into some good spells. The Bard can heal, but healing isn't optimal. The Bard gets some good enchantment spells, but the DD will likely be low on their DC's. The Bard is great in itself, but doesn't fit the abilities of the DD as well as the other two choices do.
Either of the 3/4 casting classes that you use for your DD becomes a 1/2 caster with DD levels, and any melee character you go for is about a 3/4 melee character. If you think you can outdo a wizard for blasting and a barbarian for casting, forget it. If you can do 80-90% of the damage of the barbarian and still cast 4th-5th level spells, you still pull your own weight in the group.
If you want to be a support character, there are plenty of better options than the DD. It doesn't always play with others well, which makes sense because Dragons are solitary creatures.
Well drat, it doesn't look like this PrC is working out after all. Here I thought I found a PrC I'd actually like.
I guess it depends on what you want to do. There are REALLY good ways of being a Bard and REALLY good ways of being a Dragon Disciple... just not many good ways of being both.
Just wanted to add that if a bite is what you want, you could go half orc and select the toothy trait (replaces orc ferocity). Or take half orc and pick up the razortusk feat :-)
This is just me being silly with RAW again...
But couldn't a Magus get access to Dragon Disciple with Preferred Spell? Or a Wizard with Bonded Item?
It says:
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.
Read as written, if you took, I dunno, Shocking Grasp or Enlarge Person as a preferred spell, shouldn't you qualify? I suppose preferred spell says you sacrifice a prepared slot, suggesting you had to prepare in the first place...
Bonded objects though... it says "A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. "
In other words you cast without preparation.
Wizard could have a few advantages over a Sorcerer with DD. You could even get away with a single level dip.
If you interpret Preferred Spell as being capable of qualifying a Magus for the Dragon Disciple, would it be worth doing it?
This is just me being silly with RAW again...
But couldn't a Magus get access to Dragon Disciple with Preferred Spell? Or a Wizard with Bonded Item?
It says:
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.
Read as written, if you took, I dunno, Shocking Grasp or Enlarge Person as a preferred spell, shouldn't you qualify? I suppose preferred spell says you sacrifice a prepared slot, suggesting you had to prepare in the first place...
Bonded objects though... it says "A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. "
In other words you cast without preparation.
Wizard could have a few advantages over a Sorcerer with DD. You could even get away with a single level dip.
If you interpret Preferred Spell as being capable of qualifying a Magus for the Dragon Disciple, would it be worth doing it?
This is legal, RAW and - IMO - RAI as well. I usually recommend it to others if they want DD but also a prepared class. You have the cost of two feats, but it's a legal and also well-payed for way :-)
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If you're still looking at this and interested in a Natural Attack DD, pick a race with a bite attack then go (Archeologist) Bard 1/(Whatever) Ranger 2 (Natural weapon style). At level 3 you have 3 natural attacks permanently, pick up Lingering Performance as a 1st level feat and take Fates Favoured, +2 Luck to virtually everything for pretty much every combat all day and out of it as well if need be.
After that continue Ranger to 4 if you want an AC (Boon Companion feat is almost mandatory with this route) or go Barbarian/Fighter/whatever martial you prefer until taking DD at 6th for at least 4 levels, also thinking about picking up Eldritch Heritage given your Cha should be fine and you can get some very nice boosts at 11th with the Improved version. This all adds up to a ton of melee damage, high BAB whilst still having some excellent face skills and a bunch of other useful abilities as well as things like CLW on your spell list (as for spells, Saving Finale is amazing, even more so if you decide to play a good guy and go Bard 1/Ranger 2/Paladin 2).
Mybe this is a little late...
I have start recently a quest(pathfinder rise of the runelord) I'am iconic Lem(so cha and dex based) but I'll gonna be a DD. I know it will not be the best character; nor for the melee, nor for the caster, not even for pure bard... But I love the Dragon and Love the bard that basically is good at a lot of things but not the best in 1 things...
So for me at 20 lvl, it will be, 10 bard and 10 DD.I know that I'm not the character that will do the most damage, But I will do what it will be fun for me to roleplay.
still doing some of everything.
Thank you for the old post, It help me a lot
I agree with you. DD is just fun! There have been a few new options since Oterisk wrote his wonderful guide. You should consider the Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster feat chain. Keeping full spellcasting progression is really nice and the extra hit points or skill ranks are also nice.