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Good morning. It's been requested a few times over the years (usually with summaries of "this site was taken down because of unauthorized use" or "well, Paizo might be working on it." or "let's wait until the community use map is updated" or "yeah, great idea, but no clue how to do it!" or even "check MapLib.net! It's slow as hell, but there are some unflagged versions over there!") but let's reopen the can of worms:
Now, I know nothing about the Google Maps API, but I *am* a programmer- and writer-by-trade, so it couldn't be that incredibly hard, yeah? So, I spent a few hours this morning learning how to make this proof of concept: http://www.disobey.com/detergent/2012/golarion-google-map/ Now, there's a metric omgload of things "wrong" with this proof of concept but, generally, POCs are meant to be demonstrated, then thrown away and rewritten "right". And that's about where I am at this point: "huh, yeah, I think I can get this to work!"
To step back a bit, when I envision an Inner Sea Google Map, I see:
- Baselining on the locations in the Inner Sea Map Folio.
- All locations pinned, with an info window that shows source material.
- Adding "unofficial placements" of official locations based on new monthly materials.
- A region overlay that can be flagged on and off.
- A dropdown list of all markers so you can search by name, not location.
- A pie riding a pony.
And I think most of that's possible (take a look at mapwow.com for one such example - there are many more).
But, and this is probably where previous map efforts have stagnated: the community use map is simply too small. AnnNNd, I/we don't have any rights to use the latest version from the Inner Sea Map Folio PDF (which is giiigannNtic and would work just fine for Google Maps). It's also generally non-portable: if I sit down and pin out every location in the Inner Sea, that data is unlikely to port over to a "better" or higher-res version of the map - meaning a lot lotta rework.
I think our options are thusly:
- "Settle" for this low-res version, knowing it's the best we can get Right Now, but that any amount of work we spend on it will be "wasted" if anything better comes along. This also means that the burned labels on there will have to stay - I have no capability to remove them (unlike the version in the Inner Sea Map Folio). Incidentally, does anyone know what font that is?
- Use the official Inner Sea Map Folio high-res version and make it Google Maps capable, and distribute everything *but* the imagery. You'd get all the markers, data, and code, but it'd be up to you to figure out how to get it running locally from your own purchased PDF (this would mean exporting the unlabeled image, running a script to slice it into tiles, etc.). I'd give instructions as best I could, but it is not going to be ideal.
- Plea with Paizo. Give me permission to use the unlabeled high-res version from the Inner Sea Map Folio PDF. I'll open source the underlying code and markers (or not; tell me!). I'll pay for a domain and server for it. I'll walk you through what I did so if I get run over by a bus, you can use it yourself. Or, make it a work-for-hire for pennies a day (give or take) and make it all official.
I'm interested in doing this, but I'd rather do it "right" and with the best materials onhand.
This would be an AMAZING resource. If at all possible, I'd love if Pazio allowed the use of the high-res maps for this. Plead, plead, plead.
I wonder if you could patch together the more detailed maps from specific products? To give you even more detail than the Inner Sea Map Folio would give.
Not without Paizo's permission for each and every one. Generally speaking, the only Inner Sea map (from a macro or micro level) we are currently allowed for non-private use is the one in the demo above (and technically I'm not using it "right" as I have not yet included this URL in the community resources list).
I like pie!
Now the most pressing questions:
- What flavour of pie?
- And what class is it?
- What type of pony and does it have any templates?
- Does the pie's location change?
Additional bland questions:
- What is meant by region overlay?
- Will there be political overlays?
- Geographical overlays?
- Would there be an ability for each person to be able to create a custom overlay? For running a home game to detail geo/poli changes, trade routes, and etc.
Now the most pressing questions:
- What flavour of pie?
- And what class is it?
- What type of pony and does it have any templates?
- Does the pie's location change?
Strawberry rhubarb or key lime have always been favorites of mine, and tend to be in classes all they're own. The pie rides atop an Archon Pony, which has the special ability of raising the sun at dawn and bringing about the day. A sun mark is barely visible on each of the pony's flanks, obscured by spilt pie innards caused by the bouncing of rough terrain.
Additional bland questions:
- What is meant by region overlay?
- Will there be political overlays?
- Geographical overlays?
- Would there be an ability for each person to be able to create a custom overlay?
That's exactly what I meant by overlays, yes - political/geographical regions that would color a particular section so you'd know, say, what areas Cheliax considers its own, how "big" Varisia is, and so forth. I dunno how to do them yet but I've seen them down elsewhere, so I know they're possible.
As for allowing folks to chart their own progress, that'd be incredibly awesome and I'd love to do such a thing. I don't believe it's possible with the native Google Maps interface (i.e., HTML + JS only), but if I hooked the whole thing up to a content management system, yes, I can imagine a way to do it. That'd be faaaaaaaar down the road though, and I don't necessarily think I'd /want/ to put that much effort into it unless we're using the hi-res official maps from the Map Folio.
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You may not use artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials.
Emphasis mine.
If you can find someone to make new "interpretations" of the maps, you could probably make them as detailed and high-resolution as you want. That's a pretty big "if", I know, but it is an option. (And I have seen some pretty good maps produced by people here on these boards...)
I wonder if you could patch together the more detailed maps from specific products? To give you even more detail than the Inner Sea Map Folio would give.Not without Paizo's permission for each and every one. Generally speaking, the only Inner Sea map (from a macro or micro level) we are currently allowed for non-private use is the one in the demo above (and technically I'm not using it "right" as I have not yet included this URL in the community resources list).
You also do not have a Community Use Declaration anywhere on that page. Please either adhere to the terms of the Policy or take the page down.
Generally speaking, the only Inner Sea map (from a macro or micro level) we are currently allowed for non-private use is the one in the demo above (and technically I'm not using it "right" as I have not yet included this URL in the community resources list).You also do not have a Community Use Declaration anywhere on that page. Please either adhere to the terms of the Policy or take the page down.
As indicated in the lead, this is a proof of concept. I have no intention of keeping this proof of concept up for any length of time longer than this discussion - it was meant to be "thrown away". Also mentioned in the lead: there are plenty of things "wrong" with it, including the CU policies (which, as you've quoted, I'm well aware of).
As a proof of concept, its existence ultimately serves only to settle upon an answer to the three possibilities: start over "for realz" using the low-res version, offer the underlying code necessary for the high-res version, or plead with Paizo to let me do it "right" with the hi-res version. @Ross Byers: Are you able to connect me to the right people to respond to those pleadings?
To more explicitly indicate and respect my intent, however, I will take the proof of concept down by Friday, April 27th.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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@Ross Byers: Are you able to connect me to the right people to respond to those pleadings?
To more explicitly indicate and respect my intent, however, I will take the proof of concept down by Friday, April 27th.
Just check out the Community Use area of the Paizo site, sign up for the registry, and add the community use notice. Should not take much time to do those items and allow you to keep the page up.
Just check out the Community Use area of the Paizo site, sign up for the registry, and add the community use notice. Should not take much time to do those items and allow you to keep the page up.
Not palatable. I don't currently have a URL where the "real" map would be - it certainly wasn't ever intended to live forever shoved three layers deep in a year-dated directory of my domain's archives and tweedledums. Adding *this* URL to the registry would corrupt it further (have you *been* to the registry of late? For every one resource that works, there are ten that don't), given that the time-to-live of this page was never long (as indicated by the lead, where I said it was written to be thrown away).
The truth is: I don't want to keep the page up! Dear Gozreh, that was never the intent! The intent was to say "hey, look, this is really easy! I busted this out in a few hours! Now, consider granting me the permission to do it right, ppLleasESEEe!" If the final decision is simply "NO, NEVAH!", then I have to decide if I want to "waste" all the non-portable effort on a low-res version done properly. Regardless of the decision, the current URL was never intended for longevity. That's what a proof of concept means!
[EDIT: Added the CUD, in hopes that we can get the thread back on-topic.]
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Copyrights, terms and all all that political nonsense always has a way of gumming up the gears of awesome ideas, such as yours. I know they can't bend the rules, but they don't have to enforce them I suppose.
I really hope they let you do this, that would be amazing. I've been wanting to do something similar in GIMP, having details down to the individual houses in cities.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Copyrights, terms and all all that political nonsense always has a way of gumming up the gears of awesome ideas, such as yours. I know they can't bend the rules, but they don't have to enforce them I suppose.
Actually, we do need to enforce them. Failure to protect one's intellectual property is the surest way to completely void any right you have to it. So when we find people in violation of copyright law or any other protection of Paizo's intellectual property, we have to enforce it.
Hey @Mark! Same question as to Ross: are you able to summon the right people to give a YAY or NAY to these pleadings?
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It wouldn't hurt if you actually followed the existing policies as you plead your case. As opposed to refusing to do so and telling them you'll be in violation for (at the moment) 10 more days.
You think that makes them more or less inclined to facilitate what you want to accomplish?
It wouldn't hurt if you actually followed the existing policies as you plead your case. As opposed to refusing to do so and telling them you'll be in violation for (at the moment) 10 more days.
You think that makes them more or less inclined to facilitate what you want to accomplish?
I didn't refuse to do so. The CUD is on the page. The only thing I haven't done is added it to registry because, as mentioned a zillion times so far, this demo was written to be thrown away and has absolutely no shelf life past this discussion. Adding it to the registry would serve only to make the registry suck even more than it does now (i.e., there are far more broken links then there are working links, and I do not want to contribute another broken link). I'm pretty sure the intent of the registry is for long-lasting resources, not those that exist for only a week.
With that said though, your mention of "10 days" made me realize I made an error - I did not intend for it to be up until the 27th - I was thinking this week, not next week. I meant to say it'd be taken down by Friday the 20th (i.e., the proof of concept would have been up for less than a week). There's a logical reason why I screwed up, but it's boring to hear (involves multiple birthdays happening this month in my family).
If you drew your own map, based on Paizo's map, would that still be copyright infrigement?No. You may make your own versions of our cartography.
So you could in theory make a map, the same dimensions as the PDF, with all roads, cities, and terrain marked in approximately the same places.
I'm picturing very simple art, a dozen colors used maybe, triangles marking mountain ranges, dots to mark towns, squares to mark cities, stuff like that.This would be an accurate representation of the geography of Golarion, but would use none of Paizo's art work. Would you be allowed to mark locations with their names without infringement?
Would this theoretical map be allowed to be distributed for free? for profit? would it fall under the CUP?
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If you drew your own map, based on Paizo's map, would that still be copyright infrigement?No. You may make your own versions of our cartography.So you could in theory make a map, the same dimensions as the PDF, with all roads, cities, and terrain marked in approximately the same places.
I'm picturing very simple art, a dozen colors used maybe, triangles marking mountain ranges, dots to mark towns, squares to mark cities, stuff like that.
This would be an accurate representation of the geography of Golarion, but would use none of Paizo's art work. Would you be allowed to mark locations with their names without infringement?Would this theoretical map be allowed to be distributed for free? for profit? would it fall under the CUP?
Similar to te fan made maps Here? There is even a tutorial on how those are made (note some maps there are CUP)
FWIW, I've started to write the "real" version of the code, but there's still time for Paizo to "officially" weigh in on my pleading to use the hi-res version from the Inner Sea Poster Map Folio. The "real" version isn't public anywhere yet, but supports multiple marker colors (blue for regions, green for terrain, white for cities, and red for sites) as well as a sidebar list of all locations currently defined (which, at the moment, is only 4 as I'm still holding out for an exalted granting of perms). After I get that fully finessed, I'll add in filters ("don't show me regions!") and then I'll likely start doing monkey data entry for a bit (i.e., defining markers for locations, providing book lists for locations, etc.). The original proof of concept (which, at the moment, is only serving as an example for any Paizo onlookers) will still be deleted this Friday. The "real" version will likely go live sometime next week, when it's a little more stable. I'll make a new thread when it does, since this one turned kinda negative.
but there's still time for Paizo to "officially" weigh in on my pleading
I really suggest you contact Vic Wertz if you have any questions regarding our policies. The forums aren't the best place to get an official answer for particulars like this.
As an aside, unless an image has been indicated as OK for community use (like the CU packages available for download for example), it can't be used in CU projects.
Thanks @Chris. I'll send him a PM.
EDIT: Incidentally, I don't have a question on the policies - it is quite clear that the CU says I *cannot* use the image from the Inner Sea Poster Map Folio, which is why I've started with the image available in the CUP. That has never been in question. Instead, I'm contacting him regarding permission or officiallyness or worky-for-hireyness sorta things to making the best resource I can make for the Pathfinder community at large. For this project, I tend to think that starts with the hi-res imagery.
The Community Use Policy is clear on what you can and can't do, and on what you need to do. Please abide by it in all respects.
Which doesn't really answer my question, but is likely the best I'll get.
Thanks all. Taking down the proof of concept. I'll have something better next week.
Love it. Keep it coming!
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Morbus Iff, would you be okay with the interactive map being hosted on the Pathfinder Wiki if there was credit on the site to you for coding this beast?
I think this is a brilliant idea, but I do think the resource's online 'home' should be nestled with the rest of Golarion's lore on the web, rather than being on a separate site (where less Golarion fans will find it).
From a marketing point of view, this resource would be a fantastic advertising tool for Paizo publishing. Let's say I'm GMing a campaign and the heroes are in Cheliax. I need to find some Cheliax based adventures, and fast. I head to Pathfinder Wiki, check out Morbus's map and zoom in to Cheliax. I can then find all the links to all the PFS scenarios and published modules based in Cheliax, especially the ones that my heroes are geographically closest to. I follow the links, buy the pdf and get preparing!
Really hopeful to see this project do well!
Seconded! I would love a map that lets me see where the different locations and events in products are, especially in relation to each other.
For some bizarre reason, I didn't get dotted for these responses. Sorry. Anyways, see:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5mff?Maps-Of-Golarioncom-Google-Map-of-the-Inne r-Sea
It contains my in-progress work.
As for PathfinderWiki, they've already been informed of it too:
http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Forum:My_Inner_Sea_ Google_Map_uses_the_Wiki