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As a lifelong gamer and recently out bi man I was thrilled to find this forum thread this morning :D Having been in lots of gaming groups where all of the guys made constant jokes about elves being gay, crit hits being "totally raping that guy!" and various comments about "running a train" on the female villain, I've been really appreciating the range of my current group. We have a straight monogamous married couple, a single bi woman, a single straight man, a poly gay fur, and my wife and I who are both bi and occasionally open. As a result we've had characters and NPCs who are all over the gender and sexuality spectrum (as well as shenanigans with the belt of sex change) and everyone in the group is completely comfortable with it. It's been wonderfully refreshing.
I've quit several groups because the atmosphere of the first section of your note was prevalent, but what was bad was the 'What? There's something wrong with describing it like that?' Or even worse 'So, it's a bad word, we're using it in the way it was intended. What's *your* problem? You've been fine with it in the past.'
(Truth in Print: Before someone who was very kind and understanding pulled me off to the side and asked me to *think* about the terms being used, I used to fall into the category.)
It's really awesome that you've found a nice solid, diverse group that works together well, and welcome to this forum thread. It's always nice to see new people, because then we all learn a little bit more as a result.
Kind of new myself, though, so mileage may vary on what weight my welcome may bear?
I enjoy every little victory the LGBT-community (is that hyphen necessary?) gets but isn't an Office for LGBT Affairs going a little overboard?! I think its only natural that a government (no matter the size or scale) should listen to, and try to solve, the problems voiced by the LGBT community (trying it without the hyphen... Feels like this is the right one... Not 100% on it yet though). I don't think we need an entire Office/Department dedicated to it. Really, all the issues that we run into are of a discriminatory nature. Rather than set ourselves apart, by making us the special snowflakes who get extra attention, wouldn't it be better to create an office to fight discrimination (there has to be a more elegant way to describe this) and have LGBT affairs included as a division within that office?!
No, the hyphen isn't necessary, because its omission would not change the meaning, unlike (say) the difference between "brown bag" and "brown-bagging". :)
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So, what follows is a bit of shameless (but applicable to the topic) promotion. Scroll on past if it doesn't interest you. And if this isn't appropriate for the thread, please let me know! I'll gladly remove it/get it taken down. I really just wanted to make sure folks in this thread know about us and can even discuss it in a thread (generally) safe from trolling of safe spaces in gaming.
GaymerX is an annual convention focused on games and gaming culture. We focus on creating a fun and safe space for gamers and gaymers of all identities to have fun and hang out with like minded folks. GaymerX is a “queer space”, in that many of the panels revolve around queer issues or queer devs, but GX is made for everyone and everyone is welcome!
For its third year, the event will take place under the name “GX3: Everyone Games”, celebrating a space where all can join in discussion, play, and community without fear of harassment or discomfort for being who and what they are. GX3 will take place in San Jose, California at the San Jose Marriott and Convention Center on December 11th-13th 2015.
I'm very proud to announce we're going to have a large variety of tabletop games programming on our schedule this year. You can see some of our organized play offerings, including Pathfinder Society, on our Warhorn site.. We've also got a number of Tabletop Industry guests, including Paizo's Editor-in-Chief, Wesley Schneider, you can read more about in this blog post. A summary of all our offerings can be found on [url=http://www.gaymerx.com]our website[url].
So, disclaimer: I work for GaymerX. I got started doing so, however, running Pathfinder Society for them at their first convention. It came about because as someone who has done organized t tabletop for much of their life, I was very tired of not having an explicitly queer space for it. And it was one of the best times I've ever had playing a tabletop game, hands down. It is also an exceptionally welcoming, cozy, and fun place to hang out with other LGBTQ+ gamers. I really can't talk up enough how great a space it is for folks in our community who game.
My involvement with them began with Pathfinder, but because of my background as a social worker, I ended up offering to do their Safer Spaces/Inclusivity training for volunteers (which they are required to do) and have helped them build a formal Code of Conduct and Harassment Policy. I can confidently say we are very committed to an inclusive convention because I've had the privilege of working with them to make it that way. My role remains focused on our volunteers and efforts at building an inclusive space, but I still work very closely with our Tabletop Coordinator (He's big on 5th Ed. I'm trying to convert him to Pathfinder, give me time!). I've always enjoyed this thread on the Paizo Boards and hope that some of you may be able to come to GX3 or our future events.
If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me!
The best way to freeze something in its tracks, indeed calcify it, is to create an office for it. If you want to annihilate it, make that a national department.
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Yes, that's why creating the FDA caused food and drugs to become less safe, the creation of the Patent and Trademark Office stifled innovation, the department of labor has resulted in worse working conditions, and the department of justice has made interactions between law enforcement agencies in different locations worse.
Wait, what? Sorry, exactly the opposite of what I just said.
Radical anti-governmentism is just sad, Sissyl.
No, the hyphen isn't necessary, because its omission would not change the meaning, unlike (say) the difference between "brown bag" and "brown-bagging". :)
Thank you! Apparently my instinct was correct. Now I just need to remember it.
I enjoy every little victory the LGBT-community (is that hyphen necessary?) gets but isn't an Office for LGBT Affairs going a little overboard?! I think its only natural that a government (no matter the size or scale) should listen to, and try to solve, the problems voiced by the LGBT community (trying it without the hyphen... Feels like this is the right one... Not 100% on it yet though). I don't think we need an entire Office/Department dedicated to it. Really, all the issues that we run into are of a discriminatory nature. Rather than set ourselves apart, by making us the special snowflakes who get extra attention, wouldn't it be better to create an office to fight discrimination (there has to be a more elegant way to describe this) and have LGBT affairs included as a division within that office?!Well the People of the City and County of Philadelphia voted overwhelmingly to amend the city charter to make the position a permanent part of the Mayor's office along with the Disabled, Immigrants, and the Elderly.
Ah, see, thats better. We're not singled out! I still don't like that its spelled out like that, I would've preferred something more... general, really.
One of the things said office did was start a Google Map listing and 'reviewing' gender neutral restrooms inside the city. With the recent passage of the ordinance (unanimously) making all single occupancy bathrooms (to be labeled: Toilet, Restroom, Bathroom, etc) they expect that to grow a lot. The head of the Office was also discussing the benefits to the non-T community. Shorter waits, no issues with parents/children/caregivers, etc and the forces of ignorance had a hard time playing the 'perverts will attack our kids' card regarding it.
I didn't address this bit in my last post. This is a nice improvement. I've never understood the need for segregated bathrooms in the first place. That said I was very surprised to learn that this was such a hot button issue (no hyphens, yes?!). It really shouldn't have been. We live in a weird world...
bdk86, thats really cool! Too bad there's like half the planet between the two locations or I would've come to check it out!
I'd put a hyphen between hot and button simply for clarity, i.e. to make to it obvious that you mean a hot-button issue, rather than a hot button-issue. :)
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Found a kind of obscure, bit of sort of trans media that's pretty interesting. "Secrets of Synthesis," by Moog pioneer Wendy Carlos. She goes through the various properties of synthesized sound (circa 1987), using excerpts from her classical Moog albums and her score for Tron. (She also did the scores for A Clockwork Orange and The Shining, as well as Switched On Bach, an album of Bach pieces performed on the Moog, which was a bit of a hit in the 60s, and some classical follow-up albums.)
Kind of cool listening to her lecture. I'm also teaching myself how to play synth right now, so it's kind of nice to be listening to a trans woman who pioneered the medium talking about it.
I'd put a hyphen between hot and button simply for clarity, i.e. to make to it obvious that you mean a hot-button issue, rather than a hot button-issue. :)
Damn it! I was so close to doing it right. Well... I did... But... You know... Better!
Ooh! I like Moog!
Yes! This is a very random post.
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Hi again, everyone.
So, having been without computer and internet access for -- uh, I think -- two yearsish, I had no idea what my old password was (or even which e-mail I'd used) so I just made a new account.
If you remember Alitan, you remember me; if you don't, no big deal.
But anyway, back in the digital world again; glad to be back here.
Welcome back, buddy. I do remember you.
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Hey Ithsay/Altan!
On an unrelated note:
My gaming group currently consists of:
- An asexual (not aromantic, though) transguy
- Me (lesbian transgirl)
- Bigender gay person, who currently has a boyfriend
- And three completely supportive cishet friends.
I am soooo happy right now!
My current-but-now-internet-based group is a quartet of gay men, plus the stepson of one of them (we don't know how his orientation will gel; he hasn't hit the point of noticing boys or girls yet, if he does).
Hi! I'm looking for some advice regarding a situation in my game. I'm GMing a game. A male straight (probably) cis player plays a male character. For some in-game reason, his character became a female character.
To my surprise, when offered a girdle of opposite gender by a NPC to make him more comfortable by having his body reflect his gender, he declined.
I fully support the player's choice to say no. I offered as a GM because I know that some people have difficulties playing someone of an opposite gender.
But then I realized this. His character is now a trans man and I don't think that my player friend realize this himself. While his identity is still male, as a player and a character, he is getting used to not being in his body and not looking like the gender he is. From a character arc perspective, this could be a great journey for his character to accept himself. As a GM, as I tell the main story, I want to nudge him along his story arc while he continues to make his own decisions (just like when he refused my girdle).
So my question would be... What in-game elements would you draw from to craft a character arc about a cis person becoming trans?
I'm thinking that Arshea might use their divine powers to contact him to have a chat about gender fluidity. His character could perhaps interact with a NPC who happens to also be trans and maybe they could develop a friendship.
It may be heavy handed but I also see it a way to bring a LGBT topic to my table.
Ps: I'm a male bi cis player playing with a bunch of macho cis straight males.
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Andros,
Personally, I wouldn't be heavy-handed with it. Quite the opposite. The player seems to be giving you the opportunity, but test with smaller things first. Are women treated differently to men in the campaign? Women's work/man's work, expected to be silent when the real men are talking? If so, it would be enough to use that against him occasionally. If he doesn't like it, stop. If he seems to be enjoying playing out the challenges, keep it up. As a GM I would usually ask the player if plot like this is what they want before stepping in. "Your character is now a man in a woman's body. Do you want me to play with that in future? Or ignore it?" Also watch the other players' reactions the first time you bring it up. If they're uncomfortable, also stop. Do not dive in straight away. Edge up to it.
Reflecting the character's previous treatment of women bck on him might also work. Especially if he's been a rake or white kight or other negative male stereotype when it comes to interacting with women.
But do not go big on this until you're suer the player and the group are on board.
EDIT: To be clear, I'm a cis-het, male gamer in a primarily cis-het male group, so advice may not be appropriate. We've had female chracters for male players before but it's never made a big deal of and one player even forgot our cleric was female becuase the player was male, which caused some amusement amongst players or a couple weeks.
If presented with the opportunity to turn back he refused is he really a he or is she a she or she/he really doesn't care about gender?
This reminds me of a support article for one of the Adventure Paths that details some Gray Maidens. There's one that was a man that obtained a girdle to infiltrate the Gray Maidens and rescue his sister (IIRC), after Ileosa's defeat, she stayed a woman, as she didn't feel the need to be a man again.
Hey... anybody on here living in the Salem, Oregon, area? Just moved here from Anchorage, and am facing the thrilling fun (tedious hell) of putting together a new social circle from scratch. Especially nice to find some gaymers in the area. Feel free to PM me -- or respond in the clear, either way.
Thanx
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If presented with the opportunity to turn back he refused is he really a he or is she a she or she/he really doesn't care about gender?
Two things:
First, Andros' player sounds like he's probably cis (either that or not out about being trans). If he is, he may not have much knowledge of trans folk or what they experience (body dysphoria, etc.). They may simply not have put much thought into their character's gender identity.
Second, it sounds like the character has retained his male identity, and that's all that really matters regarding what gender he is. Just because he now has a slightly different body and is apparently comfortable with it doesn't affect his gender (except, arguably, to make him transgender instead of cisgender). While gendered body dysphoria is common among trans people, not all trans people experience it. Your gender identity is the core of your gender, and your comfort level with your body and gender expeession flows from that.
Edit: I may elaborate more on this in another post, as well as actually offering some advice to Andros. :P
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My advice is with Paul's: go slow and go light, if you dive into this at all. Have your NPCs react to the character's apparent gender as they normally would. Some NPCs might be trans, too, having experienced magical transformations or just being trans in the usual way. You could have some characters ignorant of such issues, and some who know more about it and don't assume anyone's gender based on their appearance.
These are some things to think about for your own world. But before you start getting the player super involved in gender stuff, check in with him and see if he evens wants to deal with it. Trans characters don't have to be defined by their gender, and it's probably best to deal with a trans character's gender in game as much as you deal with a cis character's: which is to say, as much as people want to deal with it and are comfortable dealing with it. Sometimes it's relevant and important, and sometimes you're busy fighting skeletons.
Wise words, spoken softly.
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System Administrator
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I would generally say that playing in other peoples playgrounds can get kind of problematic. Be careful and realize that someone at that table might be trans and you or even they might not know it. But if the character becomes a joke or receives a ton of ridicule the person at the table will feel that. I know this from first hand experience. It is painful and probably a large reason of why I didn't come out sooner.
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Happy thanksgiving to all my Brothers and Sisters
I hope everyone landed safely today with family (whether its by blood or creation) and friends.
We have survived another year and we are still here!!
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So, with T-day over.
I had my first Thanksgiving with my folks since I came out as trans to them. It was...nice, actually. It went about pretty much how it always used to go. I gave my mom a couple of gentle nudges when she forgot, and she was good about it. It was a huge relief. It was also the first time I'd seen them since I came out to them.
It helps that there wasn't any other family around, though. But that was intentional.
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Glad you had a good get together Mandy.
It was 5 years before I returned home after my transition, and it was slow going to start with.
My mom still makes mistakes when she is talking about me to friends, but it is neither malicious or intentional.
Though she makes the same mistake when talking about my partner also, and my sister had to get on her case about this "Mom you never knew her before, why do you say him?"
I have not had the same issues with the younger generation (the Millennials).
We have made so many strides over the years, but like many Minorities, there is still so far to go.
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So just this last Friday I saw a live production called Night of Ashes here in Portland, which was a play about the events leading up to the most recent AP Hell's Rebels. It was super great, and my favorite part was that it featured a prominent trans character, and he was only ever misgendered by the clear villains. I don't know how many people picked up on that (in the group of people I know who went anyway), but I really appreciated it.
There are plays out there for the Adventure Paths? I have never heard of this!
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Tom Becket has written a few based on pathfinder ap's. This one was specifically based on The Night of Ashes referenced in the Hell's Rebels. He also did one based on Burnt Offerings about 4 years ago and did another one that I can't remember about 2 years ago. He's a lovely fellow and I'd tell you to check it out but this weekend was the only weekend hes doing it. His youngest was a bit young for a high school play but he did pretty great as a gnome illusionist.
That's really awesome. It's not often you see gaming plays. I mean, you sometimes see movies but actual plays? Wow.
*gets nostalgic for senior year in high school, when he did a bit of theater in the winter and spring..*
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Sorry for the double post, but wanted to get this here soonest!
There is no such thing as a 'male' or 'female' brain, study shows
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So they determined what is a "malelike" and "femalelike" brain feature by its commonality in one particular sex, if I'm reading this right? Obviously it's simplified from the original study, but I think that's the gist of it.
It makes sense to approach it that way if you're trying to observe the difference between female and male brains, but the premise and language are still rooted in a binary gender conception.
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The title of the article is not accurate based on the content. What they found is there is a continuum of male-associated and female-associated traits.
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Sex as differentiated from gender by physical bodily structures is not particularly accurate, I think. Even at the most separation of the sex binary and gender binary as ideas, they're both equally socially constructed. I think they're closely related enough that the sex binary is essentially the gender binary wearing a lab coat.
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Sex as differentiated from gender by physical bodily structures is not particularly accurate, I think. Even at the most separation of the sex binary and gender binary as ideas, they're both equally socially constructed. I think they're closely related enough that the sex binary is essentially the gender binary wearing a lab coat.Then I have no idea what you mean.
Is physical sex socially constructed? (Leaving intersex people out for the moment.) Or do you mean something else by sex binary?
That is precisely what I mean. Sex is socially constructed.
Consider this brain study: the clickbait title aside, the results of the study show that physical brain structure varies from person to person with little regard for gender. Consider what other markers of physical sex exist: even leaving genitalia aside, there's chromosomal makeup, hormone levels, bone structure, etc. If brain structure has more variance than cohesion between sexes, then why should any other physical characteristic?
It's also unhelpful to regard the physical body's sex as a different thing from its gender. I'm nonbinary. My physical body is not a physically male or female body. To say "Okay, but what is your physical sex?" as if it differs from gender reveals the societal construction of sex. Because that question doesn't mean "What are your hormone levels and chromosomes?" It means "What sex did doctors assign you at birth based on looking at your infant genitalia?"
And to bring intersex conditions back in: there are a number of wildly different ways to be intersex. A lot of them aren't immediately obvious, even to the person who has intersex traits. Some require specific blood work tests to confirm. Even though not all intersex conditions are alike, they're still socially part of the same category because they're in contrast to the sex binary.
So that's what I mean when I say that sex is socially constructed.
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What that article says is, as far as I can read it from the abstract (it's behind a 10$ pay wall):
There are structures and measurements that are more common in mens' brains. There are structures and measurements that are more common in womens' brains. Some structures and measurements are not more common in either sex. When measuring these, they have found that very few brains have ONLY traits common in males, or ONLY traits common in females. Thus (and this is where they lose me), there are no differences between men and women regarding the structure of their brains...?
Sure, if what they wanted to disprove was that every male brain has only male traits, and every female brain only female traits, sure. It... is far from a surprising find, though, and equally far from useful.
If there are traits and measurements that are more common in male brains, and similarly for female brains, that is already saying that there are sexual differences between male and female brains. And yes, if you take a random male MRI, you will find, on average, more male traits than female traits, but most will have some female traits. Which is what has been claimed all along by those who accept sexual differences in people's brains. I have never heard anyone try to claim that "male brains have only male traits, female brains only female". The entire study, unless the full text holds some formidable surprises, is a straw man. It is on the level of "here is a whole research team that has spent thousands of hours and uncounted dollars on finding something useless".
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That's not quite right. There are very few brains with only "male" or "female" traits in 10 regions, and that small number is even less in brains that aren't quite done developing, or have only just stopped (ages 18-26).
But it's not that a brain tends to have more traits in common with either side of its gender spectrum.
In other words, there were very few individuals whose brain regions were all malelike or femalelike. And there was no clear continuum between the two endpoints. Instead, across both gray and white matter and in connectivity patterns, brains are so overlapping that calling a particular form male or female is meaningless, Joel and her colleagues wrote.
It's not that brains are mostly one gender or the other along a line. They don't hold to any binary and have zero (Edit: "zero" might be an exaggeration, but not by much it seems) sexual dimorphism whatsoever.
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What that article says is, as far as I can read it from the abstract (it's behind a 10$ pay wall):
There are structures and measurements that are more common in mens' brains. There are structures and measurements that are more common in womens' brains. Some structures and measurements are not more common in either sex. When measuring these, they have found that very few brains have ONLY traits common in males, or ONLY traits common in females. Thus (and this is where they lose me), there are no differences between men and women regarding the structure of their brains...?
Sure, if what they wanted to disprove was that every male brain has only male traits, and every female brain only female traits, sure. It... is far from a surprising find, though, and equally far from useful.
If there are traits and measurements that are more common in male brains, and similarly for female brains, that is already saying that there are sexual differences between male and female brains. And yes, if you take a random male MRI, you will find, on average, more male traits than female traits, but most will have some female traits. Which is what has been claimed all along by those who accept sexual differences in people's brains. I have never heard anyone try to claim that "male brains have only male traits, female brains only female". The entire study, unless the full text holds some formidable surprises, is a straw man. It is on the level of "here is a whole research team that has spent thousands of hours and uncounted dollars on finding something useless".
After reading the full article, this is pretty accurate.
That's not quite right. There are very few brains with only "male" or "female" traits in 10 regions, and that small number is even less in brains that aren't quite done developing, or have only just stopped (ages 18-26).
But it's not that a brain tends to have more traits in common with either side of its gender spectrum.
In other words, there were very few individuals whose brain regions were all malelike or femalelike. And there was no clear continuum between the two endpoints. Instead, across both gray and white matter and in connectivity patterns, brains are so overlapping that calling a particular form male or female is meaningless, Joel and her colleagues wrote.It's not that brains are mostly one gender or the other along a line. They don't hold to any binary and have zero (Edit: "zero" might be an exaggeration, but not by much it seems) sexual dimorphism whatsoever.
Except they were able to assign values of masculinity and femininity to the traits in the first place, which more or less disproves their conclusion.
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Except they were able to assign values of masculinity and femininity to the traits in the first place, which more or less disproves their conclusion.That's not quite right. There are very few brains with only "male" or "female" traits in 10 regions, and that small number is even less in brains that aren't quite done developing, or have only just stopped (ages 18-26).
But it's not that a brain tends to have more traits in common with either side of its gender spectrum.
In other words, there were very few individuals whose brain regions were all malelike or femalelike. And there was no clear continuum between the two endpoints. Instead, across both gray and white matter and in connectivity patterns, brains are so overlapping that calling a particular form male or female is meaningless, Joel and her colleagues wrote.It's not that brains are mostly one gender or the other along a line. They don't hold to any binary and have zero (Edit: "zero" might be an exaggeration, but not by much it seems) sexual dimorphism whatsoever.
Not exactly. Here's how they determined malelike and femalelike structures:
In the first analysis, using brain scans from 169 men and 112 women, the researchers defined "malelike" and "femalelike" as the 33% most extreme gender-difference scores on gray matter from 10 regions. Even with this generous designation of "male" and "female" scores, the researchers found little evidence of the consistency they would need to prove brain dimorphism.
So masculinity and femininity don't factor in, in their usual meanings (maybe you're using those words in place of "having x-like brain structure"? Let me know if I'm misunderstanding you). They determined what is a "malelike" brain structure by its commonality in men, but its not necessarily associated with what are considered "masculine" traits.