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link to the rule in PRD Master Summoner (UM)
TL;DR: 5+Cha per day uses of summon, no limit to number that can be up at any one time, so long as Eidolon is down.
Either I can't read, or Summoning Mastery is broken. Did I miss a rule?
Are they really supposed to have 8 eagles/dogs/poison frogs at level 1?
I note their duration is also buffed to 1 minute/level.
So how to fix this, without just banhammering the archetype?
edit: Fixed URL.
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The same solution as with every caster. Avoid one-encounter adventure days, extend combat encounters but adding waves of opponents.
Moppy wrote:
So how to fix this, without just banhammering the archetype?
Don't freak out, run them like every other PC. If they throw everything at the first encounter have 2-3 more encounters where they will regret that. Never let them know how many encounters they will have in a day, etc.
In other words, just DM them like every other character,
James
I wouldn't call them broken, but they are boring to play. Yes you can spam all your summons in an encounter, but it's not the smartest tactic if you have 4-6 encounters in a day. Your spells are very limited and your eidolon is extremely weak after 3rd level. All you have is summon monster to throw out every encounter.
--Vrocking grasp
Master Summoner is regarded as one of the strongest builds in the game.
I was worried about this. I think the idea of pacing adventures (encounters per day) is a very new phenomenon. Maybe I just know too many AD&D-age players who are happy to clear a dungeon at the rate of 1 room per day, accompanied by siege engineers to fortify each room as they advance.
However, I do accept your point regarding burning too much power too quickly in single encounters.
But it really should not have the ability to do that in the first place. What changes to the class would you suggest to bring it more in line with the standard power curve?
I think it is probably balanced around level 5-10? (Not yet tried it)
At low levels, it should not have so many minions with so many special abilities or hit dice (compared to the adventurers) and is clearly over-strong.
Once the party gets 5th/6th+ level spells it's almost impossible to stop them controlling the encounters-per-day rate themselves. Old school parties will quite happily teleport in, strike one guy, teleport out and rest up, or just sit in their sanctums all day spamming rock to mud until the whole dungeon is liquid. So, fortunately the master summoner (probably?) isn't broken around this level. :-)
Unfortuntely, the class gets Gate later on. The problem then isn't really mob hit dice, it's the special and travel powers.
The master summoner is one of the most marginalizing builds in the game, easily capable of soloing entire encounters.
This is my shot at making it less marginalizing. Well, the first draft. They no longer can flood the battle field, but can do interesting things with the summons.
Cheaply:
In terms of game mechanics, I agree with the direction you are taking it. However, in terms of flavour, it doesn't have an Eidolon and I am uncomfortable with calling it a Summoner. It really feels more like a "kit" for wizard or sorc.
Paizo barred it from PFS play. That should tell you something.
What it can also easily do is drag on encounters especially from players not prepared to run a horde of monsters at once. I don't allow Summoners at all, save from players who I know can handle it and are willing to use the right tools to prepare themselves. In fact, I make such preparation mandatory for anyone who's going to be using Summon Monster or Nature's
Ally spells.
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LazarX wrote: Paizo barred it from PFS play. That should tell you something.
According to the Additional Resources list, Master Summoner is not banned from PFS. Broodmaster Summoner is, however.
Watch out for master summoners that can summon shadow demons. That's a devastating incorporeal buddy that can hang around for ages.
And so we have come full circle. Whereas once people disparaged the Summoner for not really being a summoner at all due to the focus on this creature you gate in from your imagination known as the Eidolon, people are now starting to say that without the Eidolon, the Summoner, even if they focus exclusively on summons, is not a Summoner :)
The reason for dropping the eidolon completely was that people just used it as a skill monkey / scout, which uh...further marginalizes the rogue. Master Summoners don't use their eidolons except for out of combat. So, just dropped that and gave them a familiar as a pet. You could theoretically modify it slightly so that they get Evolved Familiar now and then. But then they'd just be spent on Skilled, which is much the same as the Eidolon...
Moppy wrote: I was worried about this. I think the idea of pacing adventures (encounters per day) is a very new phenomenon. Maybe I just know too many AD&D-age players who are happy to clear a dungeon at the rate of 1 room per day, accompanied by siege engineers to fortify each room as they advance.
Roleplay the denizens of the dungeon.. have them react to the PCs rather than just waiting in their rooms.
If you make the dungeon feel like a living thing, then while the players might want that luxury, they don't get it.
Somethings attack back, combine forces, or leave.
After they've made the 'fort' and then sally forth only to find hurriedly abandoned rooms the next day, possibly a few traps left behind, etc. A few days later the party returns to their town to find that it was assaulted by a myriad of monsters..
Don't worry about a specific class or archetype overmuch. Represent the game world as a living breathing entity and you will be perfectly fine. If you give the PCs 15minute workdays then limited resource classes seem to overbalance the stamina classes. It's not the fault of the classes..
-James
alientude wrote: LazarX wrote: Paizo barred it from PFS play. That should tell you something.
According to the Additional Resources list, Master Summoner is not banned from PFS. Broodmaster Summoner is, however. Correct. I think the Broodmaster may have been banned because it breaks the 1 animal companion/eidolon rule.
It comes down to what you consider to be the iconic powers for the class.
I fully support dropping the Master Summoner's Eidolon for reasons of balance but I would then rename the class. The Eidolon is the key distinguishing feature that makes this guy's concept different from a conjuration wizard. Without it, that's basically what you are playing.
I was never playing Pathfinder way back when the class was "borrowed" from Final Fantasy(!) so I don't know what people thought of it then.
james maissen wrote: Roleplay the denizens of the dungeon.. have them react to the PCs rather than just waiting in their rooms.
After they've made the 'fort' and then sally forth only to find hurriedly abandoned rooms the next day, possibly a few traps left behind, etc. A few days later the party returns to their town to find that it was assaulted by a myriad of monsters..
This only works if the DM is either (a) genius enough to outsmart the combined, collective hive-mind of all his/her players, or (b) cheats.
A while ago there was a war (in real life). A child asked me "What happens if they attack us while we send all our soldiers to their country?" and I replied "The army will not do that".
In my experience, neither are the sort of players who want to play in an RPG that includes things like logistics. Sure if you get a bunch of "just charge in and get the loot" guys, that would work on them becuase they are playing a different game.
If you get a bunch of AD&D grognard Mad Planners who can actually not die in Tomb of Horrors, and see an RPG as "Us vs the DM" then you have no chance of pulling that off without DM cheating.
The problem with DM cheating is that it will be immediately obvious to that kind of player. It's like when a computer strategy game AI wins by exceeding the unit build limits or resource supply. Even a poor player will notice that.
Edit to add: I have just got back into D&D (well PF) after a long absence. The sort of games we used run, and will no doubt redo, are the ones where if just walk casually into the front door of the kobold dungeon, you will trigger an alarm and then get ganked by a co-ordinated military response from _every_ kobold in the place. I mean, they have human level intelligence. In fact I remember it was once higher. You don't simply march into the Gates of Greyhawk looking for a fight, so you don't do it in my kobold towns either :)
edit: rephrased something slightly as it gave the wrong impression
edit2: I should one day re-tell the story of 10th level party of Hack and Slashers that I/we killed with kobolds. Basically: Narrow tunnels, Kobolds made them small because they are small, and because any guerilla fighter knows to make hidden tunnels "crawl only" for defensive reasons. So PC are crawling and can't turn around. There's a kobold behind them with a crossbow. Is the PC at the rear facing backwards and carrying a shield? (Like he should be?) No? Oops... OK, that one kolbold will autokill him even if it takes him all day to roll enough 20s. Now I guess in a modern game players would just up and leave, but that is how we used to play. I am fairly sure this is a fairly common story from certain types of play groups. :)
Moppy wrote: james maissen wrote: Roleplay the denizens of the dungeon.. have them react to the PCs rather than just waiting in their rooms.
After they've made the 'fort' and then sally forth only to find hurriedly abandoned rooms the next day, possibly a few traps left behind, etc. A few days later the party returns to their town to find that it was assaulted by a myriad of monsters..
This only works if the DM is either (a) genius enough to outsmart the combined, collective hive-mind of all his/her players, or (b) cheats.
Not really. Most groups are not over-stealthy. Moreover most combats are not over-quiet.
If the monsters are reasonably intelligent they will react to such a dynamic change in their ecology.
Some responses include:
1. Making alliances against the interlopers.
2. Looking to make alliances with the interlopers (rarer, as they are an unknown quantity.. especially with likely prejudice/stereotype of the adventurer invader)
3. Look to raid the interloper as they are recovering from a fight, or just finishing a fight.
4. Look to evade the interlopers.
5. Mass exodus on the removal of a key element of the ecology (they killed Bob! Run!)..
It's this last one that I was commenting on the natural outcome of a number of dangerous things forced to flee. They come upon a poorly defended town. Now whether this is D&D monsters or a fleeing band of mercenaries, they can see the town as a source of materials that they might wish to have...
Now if the party has set up defenses for the town that's great. You get to reward them with finding out that these defenses were tested by some of the bees that that kicked over beehive spewed forth..
-James
As you correctly point out, it is far easier for the PCs to kill bugbears in a sacked town, or while the bugbears march home laden with loot, than it is in the bugbear base. It [givng up the town on purpose] is also allowable under any alignment too, depending on the situation.
You can name a big long list of all the things the DM could do, but if the players are of the "us vs DM" type, they have already collaborated on that behind the DM's back! So I need to either cheat, or be 4x as smart (not likely) or just allow them their freedom to dictate certain things like the pace of certain encounters.
Another thing to consider is why players of this type would actually raid a dungeon. There's better ways to get XP, and they aren't the type to proceed linearly though a module. They would want someone or something inside that dungeon, or the dungeon itself as a base. Otherwise they'd pursue their own plans to take over some country or something.
So I'd be pretty damn Monty Haul if i give them a free cave comple by having everyone march out.
Which reminds me, I need to think really hard about the levels of NPCs in Golarion to determine if it is suitable. Unlike Forgettable Realms there is no Elmunster or Symbol to pop up and meddle so a 12th level party (when they get that far) probably has enough firepower to declare themselves kings (at least of a tiny bit).
If we suddenly have an influx of superheroes to counter this it would be obvious cheese and I would have failed as DM. If the superheroes had been there all along, then all the times the PCs "saved the world" must have been just a sick test and I would also have failed :-)
Hrm, where are my old D&D notes? :)
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