Rapier melee build

[Sir Dante]

I'm thinking of creating a rapier wielding character build, influences are from characters such as Raphael in Soul Calibur, Lucius Emperors children in WH40k.

Now what I intend and would like is to make as working and powerful as possible from a rapier or similar weapon wielding character.
Also I'm going to use skills for a cliche maybe but flamboyant character who prides himself as the best and is arrogant to a point of flaw.

What kind of stats and how would I optimise a duelist like character, full fighter or fighter/duelist etc. ?

Opinions how to do this and opinions on the very concept.

Thank you! :)

[Jiggy]

Use Weapon Finesse, then when you can afford it get a +1 Agile rapier to get DEX to damage.

Other than that... kinda hard to mess up.

One thing you might consider is a dip into Urban Barbarian for "Controlled Rage". You get a +4 to your choice of physical stats (you would choose DEX, except maybe prior to getting an Agile rapier you might get STR for more damage), and you don't get the usual AC penalty, will save boost, or inability to focus on things.

Basically, you'd just go into "fast mode", which would seem great for a spiffy duelist-type.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm making a Dawnflower Dervish bard currently. They get Dervish Dance for free at level 1, which makes scimitar use dex for attack and damage, and treats it as a 1H piercing weapon for other effects, like the Duelist class features. Requires keeping a hand free. Doing some levels in there may be a good start. Especially for being charismatic and flamboyant. The fact that the archetype's version of inspire courage is doubled in effect but "selfish" (only can benefit you) would fit well.

Crane Style is also worth looking into. It makes fighting defensively much less painful on your attack mod, and the 2nd feat in the chain, Crane Wing, lets you deflect one melee attack per round that would have hit you, and likewise requires a free hand to work.

So perhaps Dawnflower Dervish / Unarmed Fighter into Duelist?

[Jiggy]

Here's something a little more specific.

I'll assume a 20pt buy and no high-impact houserules.

Mr. Rapier
Human

STR 12 (need a little carrying capacity)
DEX 18 (16+2)
CON 14
INT 11
WIS 10
CHA 12 (Seems to fit your concept)

01:Fighter1[Lore Warden]:[Bonus Feat(Weapon Finesse)], Dodge, Toughness
02:Fighter2[Lore Warden]:[Bonus Feat(Combat Expertise)][Bonus Feat(Weapon Focus:Rapier)]
03:Barbarian1[Urban]:[Controlled Rage][Crowd Control], Extra Rage
Lore Warden from here on out.

[Atarlost]

You cannot two hand a rapier for damage. That pretty much nixes using a rapier alone. You'll suffer weak damage and get absolutely nothing in return.

You can't wield two of them because they're not light. That hurts fighter TWF, though other classes can TWF with a rapier and something else and not lose weapon specialization. A main gauche is traditional, but doesn't exist in Pathfinder. If your GM accepts 3.5 content it's at d210srd but sadly exotic. On the other hand it's a 3.5 exotic so there's a chance it's worth the feat (it appears to be about as good as the dodge feat, which is not normally a feat you would take twice). Or you could be ahistorical and fight with a rapier and kukri.

You can use it in a sword and board build and not lose anything except damage type. Light shields are light weapons and therefore finesseable, though I'm not sure if a low strength sword and board build is viable. The reduced stat spreading probably doesn't make up for needing to get the agile enchantment on two weapons.

At one time I would have suggested a martial artist with a dip in cleric worshiping Cayden Cailean and Crusader's Flurry, but the flurry nerf kills that.

[Eben TheQuiet]

I don't know that it's all that hopeless. It's not going to win any DPR races, but you could probably do fine.

Most Dex melee builds short of rogues struggle with damage output. The above Dervish Dancer is an exception, from what I understand.

[Jiggy]

Also, if you use Lore Warden levels to get a "free" Combat Expertise, then later you can pick up the thematically-golden Improved Disarm. If you also find a quick and easy way into Crane Style, then you're "parrying" blows and responding with lightning-fast counterattacks and disarms.

Crane Style is a duelist in monk's clothing. ;)

[BYC]

Or just do a STR rapier build. It's better anyways. High STR doesn't mean have to look like a body builder.

[Jiggy]

BYC wrote:

Or just do a STR rapier build. It's better anyways. High STR doesn't mean have to look like a body builder.

Side note:

One of these days, I'm going to get around to making a Duelist who favors the morningstar - after all, it's a one-handed piercing weapon!

[Atarlost]

I forgot. Magus can pseudo-flurry with a one handed weapon with spellstrike. A two level magus dip on a fighter might be beneficial in a low level game or just going magus if your GM lets you spellstrike arcane mark. Or just go straight Magus: if dervish dance weren't a thing rapier would probably be the preferred weapon for that class.

[ShadowcatX]

Would you be open to wielding a short sword (or better yet, a wakizashi) and simply reskinning it a rapier? Its a significantly better weapon, it can be used in 2wf (not great, but something), can be used with piranha strike (pure win for a dex build), and can be used as a slashing weapon if need be (for some DR).

Other than that Jiggy's build is probably the best idea.

[JohnF]

Jiggy wrote:

Use Weapon Finesse, then when you can afford it get a +1 Agile rapier to get DEX to damage.

Which book is the Agile rapier in? I'm having trouble finding it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Oh, ick... Duelist requires Weapon Finesse... Yet another reason to just be a "duelist without duelist"...

[ShadowcatX]

JohnF wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Use Weapon Finesse, then when you can afford it get a +1 Agile rapier to get DEX to damage.

Which book is the Agile rapier in? I'm having trouble finding it.

I believe it is pathfinder field guide. It is just an agile property that can be applied to a magic weapon (like flaming).

[voska66]

There is the archetypes for Aldori Swordlord and Rondelero duelist. I think the Aldori SwordLord could fit here. With Crane Style they can fight defensively for no penalty to attack with the Steel Net feature. You can grab the Aldori Dueling Master feat and treat the Aldori dueling sword and piecing weapon to get that same feel as the rapier. If you wanted to you could still get the Duelist Prestige class and weapon finesse works with Aldori Dueling sword.

[DBlue]

So, how would one go about doing a strength based rapier build?

I've liked the rapier fighter concept for a while, but I could never get the mechanics to my liking.

Single hand is right out, and the rules specifically disallow two handing it.

If you go with two weapon fighting, double weapons, or two light weapons are objectively much better.

Maybe focus on using the offhand for disarm/trip? You could throw break guard and impaling critical in too to buff damage. Sure, damage would only be moderate, but most opponents after a round in melee would end up prone, with their weapon knocked away, and full of rapier holes.

Hey, that's not a bad idea. Gonna go build it, see if I can find any flaws.

[Eben TheQuiet]

IF you go with a Strength build, wouldn't AC suffer, making the Crane Style option more attractive?

[JohnF]

ShadowcatX wrote:

JohnF wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Use Weapon Finesse, then when you can afford it get a +1 Agile rapier to get DEX to damage.

Which book is the Agile rapier in? I'm having trouble finding it.

I believe it is pathfinder field guide. It is just an agile property that can be applied to a magic weapon (like flaming).

Thanks - that is indeed where it is. I knew I'd seen it somewhere!

[Sylvanite]

Lore Warden 5/Master of Many Styles 2/Duelist 10

I'd try to cram in Kirin Style and Kirin Strike, along with Crane Style, Crane Wing, and Crane Riposte.

With Gloves of Dueling and an Agile Rapier, if you got your Int and Dex pretty high you'd be able to do some pretty heavy damage, especially when crit fishing. Your defenses would also be solid with Crane Wing and Dex Int and Wisdom to AC. Find a way to get Mage Armor when it becomes needed.

You can bump UMD to use wands of shield if you have the chance too.

Being small might even help in the long run here.

You'd be taking a -1 penalty for a +7 boost to AC from fighting defensively later in this build. That's just fun.

Just thinking about it fairly quickly and even under-estimating a few things, this build would eeeeasily crack 50 AC (probably end up much closer to being 60+ if you really pumped it) as well as being able to auto parry attacks and such.

Damage wise, you could end up with a static mod of around +30, plus Kirin Strike for another 12 or so once per round, should you go that route. With a crit range of 15-20, you could certainly do pretty solid damage, and you'd get extra attacks from your ripostes, too, so maybe you could win out in volume like an archer does.