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[Edit: wrong section, this should go into Rules Question... my bad :( ]
Hi everyone!
I will be playing a Legacy of Fire campaign, modified from 3.5 to Pathfinder, in a couple of days, and I came up with an interesting character concept that would require both the Tetori and Monk of the Four Winds archetypes.
Alas, upon further inspection, the two archetypes are not compatible for they both require giving up the Abundan Step class feature. But then I took a closer look at the Quigong Monk, and it seems almost to good, so please tell me if I am wrong.
1) Quigong Monk is a normal monk archetype and can stack with other archetypes.
2) Differently from other archetypes, Quigong Monk does not force you to switch every class feature, but lets you pick and chose wich ones to keep and wich ones to trade in. While the text says "A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities", some tables seem to contradict this (I am looking at you, Abundant Step) so I'm not quite sure here.
3) "Even if a qinggong monk selects a different ki power in place of a standard monk ability, she can select that monk ability later as one of her ki powers." This means that a character can trade Abundant Step at 12th level for, say, Shadow Walk, and then later trade Quivering Palm at 15th for Abundant Step.
So, question: is it possible/legal to:
a) combine Quigong, Tetori and Four Winds, not trading a single monk ability for Quigong powers until level 15;
b) reach 12th level and trade standard monk's Abundant Step with the Tetori's class ability;
c) proceed levelling till 15th, trade standard monk's Quivering Palm with the lower-level Quigong's Abundant Step
d) trade that Abundant Step for the Four Winds ability that requires Abundant Step
End Result: A full Tetori/Monk of the Four Winds hybrid that gains Abundat Step "two times", one at 12th level and the other at 15th, both traded for different abilities from the two archetypes.
Is this legal? Overall, it seems slightly less powerful than either normal build, since it gives up a 15th level ability for a 12th level one -and yet I can't shake the feeling that this is horribly munchkin-y and not the way Quigong is supposed to be used...
I feel it wasn't intended this way. And i can see the potential danger that comes with allowing this chain-swapping of class abilities. Also RAW I think you are not able to do that since the clausole "A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature" prevents you from even selecting 2 archetypes that trade the same ability, regardless of how many times you get that ability. It's the same thing that a magus can't select 2 archetype that trade spell recall even if they do not trade the improved version of it.
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The qinggong monk is pretty much the only archetype you can stack with any other, since it allows you to *choose* when you want to replace a class feature. It doesn't automatically replace it like other archetypes. As thus, any archetype combination that still possess at least one of the base monk class features may be stacked with the qinggong. If you possess a monk archetype that replace a class feature the qinggong also allows you to replace, you can't by RAW replace the alternate class feature from your other archetype instead (like replacing the level 12 Tetori class feature that replace abundant step with another quinggong power of level 12 or lower). As an example, my own level 15 Tetori monk just got Abundant Step by replacing Quivering Palm.
It was a level-up patch intended to make the monk more interesting and efficient, and it succeeded at the job.
1) yes
2) yes
3) yes
a) no
b) yes
c) yes
d) no
The Monk of the Four Winds archetype needs to trade the 12th level abundant step monk ability for the slow time ability. He cannot trade the abundant step qinggong archetype ability for slow time, because archetype abilities replace base class abilities.
Yes qinggong monk is a patch to the monk so it works differently.
Honestly, most of the ki powers aren't even worth it. There's probably 6-9 decent to really good options over the entire 20 levels. And many many many trap options.
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I think there is an error in understanding archetypes here.
They are not a prestige class that you apply to each level as you gain it. They are a package deal that modifies the class starting at 1st level.. you cannot justify the "legality" of any combination based on sleight-of-hand with class abilities at specific levels. It needs to be a legal combination from 1st level onward, or it is a no-go.
The developers have said more than once in the threads on the Ninja and Samuari, as well as discussing the AntiPaladin... an archetype is the same as an Alternate Class. It simply does not have the level-by-level table showing all changes spelled out the way an Alternate Class does.
You cannot stack Mot4W and Tetori, they both replace Timeless Body.
True. One more reason that makes this build invalid.
I think there is an error in understanding archetypes here.
They are not a prestige class that you apply to each level as you gain it. They are a package deal that modifies the class starting at 1st level..
This leaves me more confused than ever. Does it mean that a Quigong monk -must- chose which of his class features he's going to trade at 1st level?
you cannot justify the "legality" of any combination based on sleight-of-hand with class abilities at specific levels. It needs to be a legal combination from 1st level onward, or it is a no-go.
Now this is what I meant when I said "confused".
While I understand what you are saying about being legal at 1st level and the difference with prestige classes, that seems to be implicit with archetypes only because they can't be implemented partially (that is, one must accept all of their class abilities) by RAW -and- most of them require you to trade some ability right at 1st level.However, there are some archetypes that do not literally come into play until 4th level (I think Monk of the Healing Hand does), so that begs the question whether one should declare such archetype at 1st or 4th level.
Quigong Monk could also be considered a bit of an headache here, since it has been listed as an archetype but lets you chose whether to keep or trade any abilities at all, so that means that either a Quigong-er is required to declare all of his choices at 1st level (or at whathever level he is required to make his first choice), or that anyone wishing to play a standard Monk is better served by declaring to be a Quigong and chosing his style at each level (possibly even not trading any ability at all).
The first option seems a little... artificial, and does open up discussions such as the possibility of weird archetype hybriding, so, yes, it seems that the Quigong monk is more like a patch to the standard Monk than an archetype.
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The qinggong monk chooses at first level the possibility to change class features. Again, it is a bad example of how archetypes work since it is the only archetype for which you have the choice to decide whether or not you want to replace base class features. Treat -all- base monks as being qinggong to better understand how it works.
Technically, by RAW you have to choose your archetype at first level, because even archetypes that only provide a feature at higher levels may also change proficiencies, for example.
But an archetype may also obviously be used as character development at some time if he doesn't get anything changed on first levels.
The qinggong indeed is more a patch than an archetype, but it still is written as to perfectly work as such, with the exceptions written previously : you get to choose what to replace, and you do it at the appropriate levels, as long as you still possess the base class feature you wish to replace.
You cannot stack Mot4W and Tetori, they both replace Timeless Body.True. One more reason that makes this build invalid.
I think there is an error in understanding archetypes here.
They are not a prestige class that you apply to each level as you gain it. They are a package deal that modifies the class starting at 1st level..
This leaves me more confused than ever. Does it mean that a Quigong monk -must- chose which of his class features he's going to trade at 1st level?
However, there are some archetypes that do not literally come into play until 4th level (I think Monk of the Healing Hand does), so that begs the question whether one should declare such archetype at 1st or 4th level.
Quigong Monk could also be considered a bit of an headache here, since it has been listed as an archetype but lets you chose whether to keep or trade any abilities at all, so that means that either a Quigong-er is required to declare all of his choices at 1st level (or at whathever level he is required to make his first choice), or that anyone wishing to play a standard Monk is better served by declaring to be a Quigong and chosing his style at each level (possibly even not trading any ability at all).
When a character selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class features found in the Core Rulebook or those listed in one of the archetypes presented here.
So, technically, when you take your first level of Monk, you choose to be a standard Monk, or a Tetori, or a Qinggong, etc. If that's your first character level overall, or your first level of Monk after being a Fighter for five levels, that doesn't change.
A flexible GM might let you decide at level 4 that you've "really been a Monk of the Healing Hand all along" ... but that's a house rule, not the standard rule.
Players with existing characters should talk with their GM about whether on not these alternate class features are available in her game, and if so, whether they can recreate their characters to adopt them.
So, when a new archetype is published, a GM can allow a player to add it and revise the character. That seems to be the only RAW occasion for adding an archetype after taking your first level in the class.
The Qinggong Monk is, as others have noted, a poor example to base your understanding of Archetypes on, because its special ability is to NOT work like other Archetypes, if you see what I mean. I would sugges that you forget the Qinggong Monk intially when trying to understand how archetypes work, then look at the Qinggong as an extra-flexible archetype. It will NOT let you mix other archetypes, though, and it probably cannot be combined with other archetypes itself because it allows you to change ANY ki-based class ability.. and you cannot mix archetypes that change the same class base class ability. Does that help?
This leaves me more confused than ever. Does it mean that a Quigong monk -must- chose which of his class features he's going to trade at 1st level?
No, but the fact that he could change it is what disqualifies him. The only archetype that stacks with Qinggong is Sensei.
No, but the fact that he could change it is what disqualifies him. The only archetype that stacks with Qinggong is Sensei.
This leaves me more confused than ever. Does it mean that a Quigong monk -must- chose which of his class features he's going to trade at 1st level?
I understand it differently. If you choose an archtype that swaps out powers X Y and Z you cannot choose another archtype that also swaps out powers X Y and Z. However, Qinggong Monk allows you to swap out only powers that you choose. Thus, you can choose not to swap out X Y and Z thereby remaining legal for combination with other archtypes.
As a result Qinggong Monk is legal with ALL archtypes provided you do not try to alter the same powers as the other archtypes. - Gauss
No, but the fact that he could change it is what disqualifies him. The only archetype that stacks with Qinggong is Sensei.
That's not how optional ability replacements work when determining which archetypes are compatible. Qinggong doesn't actually replace anything unless you choose to replace a particular power; it is usable with every other monk archetype.
This has been clarified on the boards before, but I lack the time to search it up right now. If I get a chance later tonight I'll dig around and post the link.
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That's not how optional ability replacements work when determining which archetypes are compatible. Qinggong doesn't actually replace anything unless you choose to replace a particular power; it is usable with every other monk archetype.
^ True.
Qinggong gives you the choice to replace almost all you monk base class features when you reach the appropriate level.
By taking an archetype that replaces base class features that the qinggong monk allows you to trade, you effectively don't get the base class feature. As such, you can't replace them at said level with a qinggong power.
So that's quite the opposite : qinggong stacks with everything, but the "efficiency" of this archetype depends entirely on the number of features you finally get to replace. If you already have several monk archetypes, you have almost no base class feature remaining since they are replaced, so your choices are more limited.
That's not how optional ability replacements work when determining which archetypes are compatible. Qinggong doesn't actually replace anything unless you choose to replace a particular power; it is usable with every other monk archetype.^ True.
Qinggong gives you the choice to replace almost all you monk base class features when you reach the appropriate level.
By taking an archetype that replaces base class features that the qinggong monk allows you to trade, you effectively don't get the base class feature. As such, you can't replace them at said level with a qinggong power.So that's quite the opposite : qinggong stacks with everything, but the "efficiency" of this archetype depends entirely on the number of features you finally get to replace. If you already have several monk archetypes, you have almost no base class feature remaining since they are replaced, so your choices are more limited.
To get back to the OP's question, though, even if Qinggong stacks with any other archetype, its abilities cannot be used to make an "illegal" combination "legal" due to manipulating when abilities are gained.
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To get back to the OP's question, though, even if Qinggong stacks with any other archetype, its abilities cannot be used to make an "illegal" combination "legal" due to manipulating when abilities are gained.
Indeed. Note that even if it's impossible by RAW, a comprehensive DM may rule it differently for the sake of fun and efficiency, though. I played an obese hobo qinggong drunken monk of the moutain's lotus, and I asked to replace some abilities that suck hard from drunken and mountain monk for funnier powers : puking venom (Poison), uncanny/unforeseeable precision (True Strike), and alcoholic allergic reaction (Barkskin, instead of the ability adding AC and immunity to maneuvers when you don't move from your square). I would have added Dragon Breath to belch fire, but had the possibility to ressuscitate a previous character that I was fond of.
Never hurts to ask kindly if you have a cool concept and the DM greenlights it. My character was obviously considered illegal under the system, but we all had a lot of fun with him, so it's a win.