I read the following last night, and my head exploded a little:
Sweeping Fend (Ex): At 13th level, a polearm master
can use any spear or pole arm to make a bull rush or trip
maneuver, though he takes a –4 penalty to his CMB when
making such attempts. Weapons with the trip property
do not incur this penalty on trip maneuvers. This ability
replaces weapon training 3. Advanced's Player Guide p. 106.
Does that imply that I can't make a trip attempt with a bardiche (for example) if I'm not a Fighter (Polearm Master) 13 !?!
If that's the case the Trip manoeuver is tripe that got me tripping !
Has that been errated or is there something here I utterly fail to grasp ? I understand the restriction on Bull Rush manoeuver that this feat is supposed to alleviate, but aren't you supposed to be able to Trip with any weapon ?
The Trip manoeuver description in the Core Rulebook (Core Rulebook p. 201) does not say anything about restriction on Trip attempts associated with weapons type, only that "You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack."
When I attack with my bardiche it's always a melee attack for me, even if my target is 10 ft. away !
.... Wait, it just occured to me : is the feat supposed to make possible Trip attacks on target who are adjacent to you ?! But isn't this what Polefighting is there for :
Pole Fighting (Ex): At 2nd level, as an immediate action,
a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or
polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets.
This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that
weapon until he spends another immediate action to return
to the normal grip.
If some kind soul could shed some light on all this obscurity I would be grateful :-).
trip works how you think. the archetype ability is partially superfluous.
trip was semi-recently clarified via FAQ, and clearly some of the writers doing archetypes in that book didn't understand the rules like you do. there was confusion over it before, because while trip was worded exactly as you quote (in place of melee attack), the trip WEAPON QUALITY had a line saying how that weapon could deliver a trip attack... i.e. very similar to the sweeping fend ability's wording... it was also superfluous, and didn't imply that non-trip weapons couldn't deliver trips. (there was also a short-lived FAQ before that ruling, with unique functionality not remotely suggested by the RAW, but that was over-ruled in favor of the current official reading)
the only benefit of trip weapon quality is that you can drop it if you would otherwise be tripped yourself, and that they can also deliver drag and reposition maneuvers (which normally aren't delivered by weapons).
if you want to see the official Trip FAQ, check the FAQ for the core rule product, from the core rule product page, or the FAQ page.
I don't have the developer quote on me (I'm sure somebody else does), but you are able to make trip attempts with any weapon you want, including a bardiche (for example). Half of the Sweeping Fend ability is, indeed, largely useless since it allows you to do something you could do already.
EDIT: Ninja'd while distracted browsing website to help friend with order problems.
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I don't have the developer quote on me (I'm sure somebody else does), but you are able to make trip attempts with any weapon you want, including a bardiche (for example). Half of the Sweeping Fend ability is, indeed, largely useless since it allows you to do something you could do already.
EDIT: Ninja'd while distracted browsing website to help friend with order problems.
If that's true, then the Trip weapon quality itself is entirely superfluous.
Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.
I thought the trip weapon quality also allowed you to use any bonuses on the weapon attack roll (such as weapon focus, magical enhancement, fighter weapon training or archetype stuff) on the cmb roll...?
Or can you do that with any weapon, regardless of the cm qualities?
dotting
I thought the trip weapon quality also allowed you to use any bonuses on the weapon attack roll (such as weapon focus, magical enhancement, fighter weapon training or archetype stuff) on the cmb roll...?
Or can you do that with any weapon, regardless of the cm qualities?
You can use the weapon's bonuses regardless of type on disarm, sunder and trips made with any weapon. Relevent Blog Post
Funny, I actually thought that trip weapons gave you a +2 to trip checks like disarm weapons do. Guess I care even less about the trip property now....
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For those of you looking for it:
FAQ
Trip Weapons: If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature.
Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.On a related note, you don't have to use a weapon with the disarm special feature (a.k.a. a "disarm weapon") when making a disarm combat maneuver--you can use any weapon.
Note: This is a revision of this FAQ entry based on a Paizo blog about combat maneuvers with weapons. The previous version of this FAQ stated that using a trip weapon was the only way you could apply weapon enhancement bonuses, Weapon Focus bonuses, and other such bonuses to the trip combat maneuver roll. The clarification in that blog means any weapon used to trip applies these bonuses when making a trip combat maneuver, so this FAQ was updated to omit the "only trip weapons let you apply these bonuses" limitation.
—Sean K Reynolds, 03/15/11
Link to Paizo Blog on it for more reading.
and part of the blog dealing with polearm master:
Additionally, the polearm master fighter archetype (Advanced Player’s Guide 106) has an ability called sweeping fend that allows the fighter to use any spear or polearm to make bull rush or trip maneuvers. For the bull rush, this is a specific exception that overrides the general rule of “weapon bonuses don’t apply on bull rushes.” For the trip, the text as written is redundant because anyone can already use a weapon as part of a trip attempt, so giving the polearm master this ability has no effect. This ability needs to be updated as follows.
Update: On page 106 of the Advanced Player’s Guide, Polearm Master, Sweeping Fend ability, delete the second sentence. Replace the first sentence with “At 13th level, a polearm master can use any spear or polearm to make bull rush maneuvers, though he takes a –4 penalty on combat maneuver checks when making such attempts. When using a spear or polearm to make a trip maneuver, he treats these weapons as if they had the trip weapon feature.”
To those who snub the trip property: may you never roll a 1 against a large enemy with multiple attacks.
While a natural 1 is an automatic miss, it's not an automatic miss by 10+.
Meaning, if your CMB for trip is +15, and you roll a natural one against a creature with trip CMD 25, you fail but don't get tripped yourself.
Eh, can't say I'm a fan of the ruling. The idea of tripping with a longsword sounds a little preposterous to me, though it could just be imaginative bias telling me that someone's legs would just get cut off.
a longsword can be used to deliver non-lethal damage, albeit at penalty, presumably with the flat of the blade... that still gets weapon-specific attack bonuses, etc. if you don't care about doing damage in any form (lethal or non-), but just want to trip, it seems reasonable to not apply an attack penalty since using the flat of the blade isn't hindering to trying to trip them.
My issue with the ruling is it makes a long spear pretty powerful if you can trip with it, since your opponent can't AOO you unless they have reach as well.
The Guisarme is a reach weapon and it has the trip property. Granted it's martial instead of simple, but most of the good tripper's will have all martial weapons anyway.
So the 13th level ability of a fighter archetype is that they can make lousy bull rushes from 10 feet away? Seems like it should do more, but maybe that's just me.
To the OP, you may trip with any polearm as others have stated. The rules have been clarified and the person who wrote the APG archetypes may have not been aware of the designer clarification (which was made after the APG came out) or the intent of the tripping rules (which were always pretty wonky).
So, if you use a weapon that does not have the trip property then you will a) be able to trip b) be able to add the weapon's enhancement bonuses or weapon focus bonuses to the CMB roll but not c) drop the weapon if you fail miserably at tripping and you will not be able to avoid falling prone.
The long spear is already pretty powerful for a simple weapon (1d8, reach and brace, which is probably why it was a martial weapon in 3.0) but it's not quite as good as the martial versions (trip generally being more useful than brace, IMO.)
Yeah... because brace is really used all that much...
Yeah, they.. ahem.. "clarified" the trip weapon quality to do.. pretty much nothing now so you can trip with anything.
Well, Trip property isn't totally worthless. From the blog:
"There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons)."
Trip weapons let you use them to drag or reposition people and thus apply weapon bonuses, dex mod if you have weapon finesse, and so forth. Since you can trip unarmed, presumably that means you can do unarmed drag and reposition attacks with dex if you have weapon finesse (or wis if you have the guided weapon property, or so forth). Right? Right?
Makes total sense. *eyeroll*
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Wow. There's a ruling I'll be immediately houseruling.
Why does the first sentence of the Trip quality even exist if you can trip someone with any weapon?
Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.
Compare to the disarm quality description.
Disarm: When you use a disarm weapon, you get a +2 bonus on Combat Maneuver Checks to disarm an enemy.
This is clear enough; these weapons are better for disarming, but do not enable the feature. The trip quality has always made it sound like these are the weapons that allow you to trip, and each is themed around that idea. Shouldn't you take a significant penalty to your trip attempt with a greatclub as opposed to say, a weapon that was made specifically for tripping? Or at least throw in the +2 bonus from disarm to make the trip quality reflect the weapon in question's primary use?
Note: This is a revision of this FAQ entry based on a Paizo blog about combat maneuvers with weapons. The previous version of this FAQ stated that using a trip weapon was the only way you could apply weapon enhancement bonuses, Weapon Focus bonuses, and other such bonuses to the trip combat maneuver roll. The clarification in that blog means any weapon used to trip applies these bonuses when making a trip combat maneuver, so this FAQ was updated to omit the "only trip weapons let you apply these bonuses" limitation.
Ah... Seems that FAQ update had slipped past my attention.
Now that is... Well...
The transformative weapon of my phalanx soldier suddenly got a lot less cost-effective.
Why bother changing it into a horsechopper (or any trip weapon) when the only benefit is being able to drop it on a totally failed trip attempt?
Retrieving the weapon is a move action that provokes an AoO.
Getting up from prone is a move action that provokes an AoO.
In both cases, if I'm starting my turn with a trip attempt (as a standard action) and fail it by more than 10, I can use my move action to recover, and most enemies won't even threaten me at this point.
Failing a trip attempt at a later point during my full attack by more than 10 is possible, but unlikely, since it probably means that I have failed all the other trip attempts of my full attack routine - because honestly, if I want to trip someone, I try to do so starting with my first attack to get the +4 bonus for a prone enemy for the rest of my attacks. And if I realize with my first (and maybe second) attack that tripping doesn't look like it has any chance of success, I'll use the rest of my attacks for something else, like disarming (if my reach weapon doesn't need trip, I can take one with another quality) or actually attacking for damage. But now, IF I make a trip attempt with one of my last iterative attacks and fail by more than 10, the two possiblites are:
a) Trip weapon: I drop it, which probably leaves unarmed now and not threatening anymore (or at least not at reach) - a phalanx soldier will still have his shield, others should hope for armor spikes or IUS. So either I stay in the square with my weapon and watch in awe, as my opponent just moves around me to attack my squishy friends or takes a 5ft step to full attack me, and hope I'm be able to pick up my weapon afterwards, or, if I haven't taken it before my full attack, I take a 5ft step back to deny my opponent the possibility of a full attack, otherwise resort to watching, and possibly not get my weapon back until the fight is over, so I better have some decent backup weapons with me.
b) Normal weapon: I'm now prone, -4 attack and AC in melee, but still threatening at reach, so my opponent is probably invited to taking a 5ft step and full attacking me while I hope I'm able to stand up afterwards, but he could also try anything else, likely provoking an AoO from me.
TL;DR: Getting tripped as a result of failing your own trip attempt can be better than being disarmed as a result of said attempt, depending on your style of play. If you act wisely, you won't fail by 10 or more anyway, so trip weapon quality isn't so great anymore.
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Note: This is a revision of this FAQ entry based on a Paizo blog about combat maneuvers with weapons. The previous version of this FAQ stated that using a trip weapon was the only way you could apply weapon enhancement bonuses, Weapon Focus bonuses, and other such bonuses to the trip combat maneuver roll. The clarification in that blog means any weapon used to trip applies these bonuses when making a trip combat maneuver, so this FAQ was updated to omit the "only trip weapons let you apply these bonuses" limitation.Ah... Seems that FAQ update had slipped past my attention.
Now that is... Well...
The transformative weapon of my phalanx soldier suddenly got a lot less cost-effective.
Why bother changing it into a horsechopper (or any trip weapon) when the only benefit is being able to drop it on a totally failed trip attempt?Retrieving the weapon is a move action that provokes an AoO.
Getting up from prone is a move action that provokes an AoO.
Retrieving the weapon doesn't come with a built in -4 to melee attacks and AC against melee attacks.
Shouldn't you take a significant penalty to your trip attempt with a greatclub as opposed to say, a weapon that was made specifically for tripping? Or at least throw in the +2 bonus from disarm to make the trip quality reflect the weapon in question's primary use?
Totally. As it is now, tripping someone with a small butterfly knife or wushu dart is as easy as tripping someone with an ogre hook, a guisarme, a spiked chain or scythe. Makes sense, right?
Retrieving the weapon doesn't come with a built in -4 to melee attacks and AC against melee attacks.
Read on.
b) Normal weapon: I'm now prone, -4 attack and AC in melee, but still threatening at reach, so my opponent is probably invited to taking a 5ft step and full attacking me while I hope I'm able to stand up afterwards, but he could also try anything else, likely provoking an AoO from me.
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I would rather they buff the trip property with a +2 then remove the ability to use trip with all weapons.
Remember that you choose how you picture the trip attempt coming about. With the dagger, I picture crouching down quickly and putting the flat end behind the opponent's knee. With a longsword, maybe it's just a whack at the shin that doesn't really do any damage but makes the enemy fall prone.
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Retrieving the weapon doesn't come with a built in -4 to melee attacks and AC against melee attacks.Read on.
b) Normal weapon: I'm now prone, -4 attack and AC in melee, but still threatening at reach, so my opponent is probably invited to taking a 5ft step and full attacking me while I hope I'm able to stand up afterwards, but he could also try anything else, likely provoking an AoO from me.
Yeah, derp. :) I shouldn't post when I'm tired.
I also would not mind in trip weapons just gave a +2 like disarm does. But that's not what the rules are currently, and the "drop it to avoid falling prone" thing is weaksauce. If I can fail by 10+, that means I had at best a ~50% chance of tripping in the first place. I would probably not try tripping at all in that case. And unless you can use weapon cords, I would much rather be left prone than disarmed anyway.
I would rather they buff the trip property with a +2 then remove the ability to use trip with all weapons.
Remember that you choose how you picture the trip attempt coming about. With the dagger, I picture crouching down quickly and putting the flat end behind the opponent's knee. With a longsword, maybe it's just a whack at the shin that doesn't really do any damage but makes the enemy fall prone.
Maybe more like +2 for a light, +4 for a one-handed, and +6 for a two-handed trip weapon.
Of course you can picture the attempt any way you want, but I think that's more a case of explaining the positive result. Achieving that result should be of varying difficulty, depending on how well the weapon you use is suited for it.
And, taking your example, if you just smack your opponents leg with your longsword or trip-hook, you fail your attempt by 10+ and suddenly realize that your opponent stays on his feet - a) why on earth do you fall down in the first place? and b) why and how can you avoid falling down by dropping of a hook, but not by dropping a sword? oO
TL;DR: The trip rules don't make sense.
TL;DR: The trip rules don't make sense.
Your opinion.
My opinion: trip rules didn't make sense in the first place. Where you couldn't use a weapon (like a quarterstaff) to trip someone at all. That makes sense right?
I have been an advocate for Trip weapons to confer an additional +2 to the attempt (like disarm weapons). Sean also said he is leaning that way so he and Jason are in the process of discussing ossible trip property fixes for the upcoming Ultimate Equipment book.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Trip weapons let you use them to drag or reposition people and thus apply weapon bonuses, dex mod if you have weapon finesse, and so forth. Since you can trip unarmed, presumably that means you can do unarmed drag and reposition attacks with dex if you have weapon finesse (or wis if you have the guided weapon property, or so forth). Right? Right?
Interestingly, the referenced blog (and subsequent posts from Sean K Reynolds in the discussion thread) says that most maneuvers are performed "without a weapon" and that unarmed strikes count as "weapons" for this purpose. Additionally, Weapon Finesse counts as a weapon-related bonus.
So if you want to drag or reposition and use your DEX instead of STR, you need to either use Weapon Finesse and a (finessable) Trip weapon, or take Agile Maneuvers.
To get your DEX mod for other maneuvers (like bull rush or whatever), Agile Maneuvers is your only option.
@Mergy: yeah, okay. If you visualize it with your opponent helping you... Still, the other question remains. I swing my weapon, supposedly lose balance, and am about to fall down - but I can drop some kinds of weapons to remain standing, which doesn't work with others...
@Stynkk: true. I think the FAQ ruling before the current one was better - the one that said you could use any weapon, but only get to use your bonuses with a trip weapon. That didn't solve that "you can only drop some weapons" issue, but at least it gave weapons with the trip quality a tangible benefit. But yeah, a flat bonus would be okay, too.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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To the OP, you may trip with any polearm as others have stated. The rules have been clarified and the person who wrote the APG archetypes may have not been aware of the designer clarification (which was made after the APG came out) or the intent of the tripping rules (which were always pretty wonky).
Yup. All through 3rd Ed I had been of the understanding that you needed a trip weapon (or unarmed strike) to trip. Shoot, I even played with people who worked at WotC and Paizo and they thought it worked that way too.
So, I wrote up what I thought was an ability that did something, but it turns out not so much.
Long story short: You can trip with any polearm. The trip ability just lets you drop the weapon to avoid a counter-trip. That's it. FWIW, I agree that's kinda lame.
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I personally think they should bring back the 3.5 rule that if you attempt a trip with a Trip weapon you do not provoke an AoO, even if you don't have Improved Trip. For those people who wish to trip this might make trip weapons more attractive as you now don't have to give up a feat to avoid the AoO.
Yup. All through 3rd Ed I had been of the understanding that you needed a trip weapon (or unarmed strike) to trip. Shoot, I even played with people who worked at WotC and Paizo and they thought it worked that way too.
That IS how it worked through all of 3rd edition. Heck, that's how it worked in PF, too, up until that blog. Just like with the current flurry debacle, that "clarification" was a rules change. Plain and simple. Except nerfing an entire base class (and one that was already the weakest) is a much worse thing than...nerfing a guisarme. People don't care as much about that.
I personally think they should bring back the 3.5 rule that if you attempt a trip with a Trip weapon you do not provoke an AoO, even if you don't have Improved Trip. For those people who wish to trip this might make trip weapons more attractive as you now don't have to give up a feat to avoid the AoO.
I also think if you have IUS, you should be able to do an unarmed trip w/o provoking an AoO. I always hated that this was not the case in 3E.
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TL;DR: The trip rules don't make sense.Your opinion.
My opinion: trip rules didn't make sense in the first place. Where you couldn't use a weapon (like a quarterstaff) to trip someone at all. That makes sense right?
I have been an advocate for Trip weapons to confer an additional +2 to the attempt (like disarm weapons). Sean also said he is leaning that way so he and Jason are in the process of discussing possible trip property fixes for the upcoming Ultimate Equipment book.
I do agree it should be possible to trip with a quarterstaff. But compared to a guisarme or flail? It's much more difficult to trip someone with a straight rod than with a hook or chain. Or try cleanly tripping someone with a dagger in the middle of combat. That would require a bit of training.
What if the improved trip feat could "unlock" all melee weapons to allow trips, and confer the bonus only to those weapons with the Trip property? Best of both worlds.
Yup. All through 3rd Ed I had been of the understanding that you needed a trip weapon (or unarmed strike) to trip. Shoot, I even played with people who worked at WotC and Paizo and they thought it worked that way too.That IS how it worked through all of 3rd edition. Heck, that's how it worked in PF, too, up until that blog. Just like with the current flurry debacle, that "clarification" was a rules change. Plain and simple.
You're leaving out the intermediary step of Paizo publishing the PRPG rule-set.
That changed the wording of Trip, to use the same 'in place of attack' wording that Disarm used, and no longer mention UAS at all (which 3.5 did). The wording of Trip in PRPG is and was substantially different from 3.5 from the moment it was published, long before any FAQs.PRPG Trip's wording ALWAYS used the exact same wording as Disarm, 'in place of a melee attack'. I.e. if you can take an attack (no restriction on weapons mentioned), you can make a Trip with that attack. The wording for Trip Weapon Quality wasn't properly edited to reflect that, but per strict RAW, the wording there (saying you can Trip with a Trip Quality weapon) didn't change anything to impose a restriction on non-Trip Weapon Quality tripping... Any more than saying 'Australians can speak English' implies that anybody who is not Australian cannot speak English. ...And never mind that a specialized rule in the Equipment chapter isn't the place to impose a restriction on a general combat rule. There was never a valid argument about RAW, people could only argue about RAI (until Paizo clarified that with the FAQ).
The FAQ didn't change the rules at all, it just confirmed that the Trip Weapon Quality's statement that you can use them to Trip was superfluous, just like the Pole-Arm Archetype's mention that you can Trip with Pole-Arms is superfluous. Now, superfluous statements like Trip Weapon Quality that may INTIMATE something that isn't true is certainly not helpful to anybody, in fact it's just bad editing, but that doesn't change what the actual RAW rules are/were.
The FAQ didn't change the rules at all, it just confirmed that the Trip Weapon Quality's statement that you can use them to Trip was superfluous, just like the Pole-Arm Archetype's mention that you can Trip with Pole-Arms is superfluous. Now, superfluous statements like Trip Weapon Quality that may INTIMATE something that isn't true is certainly not helpful to anybody, in fact it's just bad editing, but that doesn't change what the actual RAW rules are/were.
This is my feeling as well. I think people are holding on to 3.5 a little too tightly in some cases. PF is a different game so the rules have to be digested and applied differently without preconceptions.
@Jason Nelson:
Jason! Sorry I seem to be pummeling you right and left around the boards. I appreciate the contributions of the Fighter Archetypes and I know you wanted to improve the game. So thank you for trying, but I think the archetype reviewers could have given you a heads up on the official stance.
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Hmmm, I wonder when they will get the blog change regarding Polearm Master into the actual FAQ. Finding blogs that change the rules is difficult. - Gauss
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The FAQ didn't change the rules at all, it just confirmed that the Trip Weapon Quality's statement that you can use them to Trip was superfluous, just like the Pole-Arm Archetype's mention that you can Trip with Pole-Arms is superfluous. Now, superfluous statements like Trip Weapon Quality that may INTIMATE something that isn't true is certainly not helpful to anybody, in fact it's just bad editing, but that doesn't change what the actual RAW rules are/were.This is my feeling as well. I think people are holding on to 3.5 a little too tightly in some cases. PF is a different game so the rules have to be digested and applied differently without preconceptions.
@Jason Nelson:
Jason! Sorry I seem to be pummeling you right and left around the boards. I appreciate the contributions of the Fighter Archetypes and I know you wanted to improve the game. So thank you for trying, but I think the archetype reviewers could have given you a heads up on the official stance.
Oh, what else where you pummeling me over? :)
Oh, what else where you pummeling me over? :)
during the tripping FAQ thing, there was something else with the fighter archetypes... I think the Ranged Combat Maneuvers? I forget, but thanks for keeping the dialogue open :)