Arcane Bond

[Talandor]

Hello everyone,

I am once more confused by arcane bond and its interaction with multiclassing.
Is it an ability modifiying your spellcasting limited to the granting class or not?
--> Could a Magus or Bard use it for their spells?
Please read following pre answering:

Examples

Spoiler:

Magus 5/Wizard 1
a) May he use arcane bond to cast lvl 2 spells from the magus list?
b) Does he have to make a concentration check when casting a lvl2 magus slot spell not wearing the bond item?
--> It seems logic both come together - also a bit strange that an additional ability (bond) should hamper previous casting ability (no concentration check without bond).

Relevant Quote from FAQ:

Spoiler:

Quote:

General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)

—Jason Bulmahn, 10/21/10"

Several points that seem to indicate it is not limited to the wizard class (are these different "arcane bond abilities?):
* Arcane Duelist gains it as an ability and does obviously use it for his spells
* Arcane Bloodline and or "Eldritch Heritage Feat" gain it and use it for sorcerer spells (although its specifically mentioned and one might argue it is a different "arcane bond abilitiy".

This would however also mean that spellcasting would require concentration checks for all spells without the bond.
Do Arcane Duelist and Arcane Bond from Arcane Bloodline make you do concentration checks when not wearing the bond?

Cheers

[rat_ bastard]

As a budding Mystic Theurge I too am wondering the answer to this question.

[Bwang]

My reading and use in game has been 'YES', primarily due to no prohibitive text.

Arcane Bond in my game is also used by various magical societies as identify-ers and 'secret decoder rings'. The members of the Crystal Orb carry such on staves, amulets, etc. The social mores about wearing other peoples' are roughly the same as getting a Hell's Angels tattoo (subject to removal with a rusty knife).

On this thread/thought, perhaps the great Meepo could craft a Magus archetype that employs an Arcane Bond. Hint, hint...

[LazarX]

Bwang wrote:

My reading and use in game has been 'YES', primarily due to no prohibitive text.

Arcane Bond in my game is also used by various magical societies as identify-ers and 'secret decoder rings'. The members of the Crystal Orb carry such on staves, amulets, etc. The social mores about wearing other peoples' are roughly the same as getting a Hell's Angels tattoo (subject to removal with a rusty knife).

On this thread/thought, perhaps the great Meepo could craft a Magus archetype that employs an Arcane Bond. Hint, hint...

The Bladebound forum is that way ------>

[Talandor]

The arcane bond remains unresolved here ;)

@Bwang
Is that a double yes: Yes for not restricted to a class and Yes for concentration to all classes?

[ShadowcatX]

No, a magus 5 / wizard 1 can't use it to cast a magus spell.

arcane bond wrote:

A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared.

[Talandor]

ShadowcatX wrote:

No, a magus 5 / wizard 1 can't use it to cast a magus spell.

arcane bond wrote:

A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared.

How would this fit with the arcane bond feature of the arcane duelist? Strictly following your interpretation this would be no use as the arcane duelist has no wizard spells at all that he could cast.

Also how would arcane bond by eldritch heritage (arcane bloodline) work, if I picked it as a magus or bard?

Both seem to indicate "wizard" is not meaning the actual class, but the character who happens to be a wizard in the original rules.

[ShadowcatX]

Talandor wrote:

ShadowcatX wrote:

No, a magus 5 / wizard 1 can't use it to cast a magus spell.

arcane bond wrote:

A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared.

How would this fit with the arcane bond feature of the arcane duelist? Strictly following your interpretation this would be no use as the arcane duelist has no wizard spells at all that he could cast.

This seems to indicate "wizard" is not meaning the actual class, but the character who happens to be a wizard in the original rules.

By RAW, you may be correct (though its not "no benefit" as he can still enchant it without the proper feat). However, RAI its pretty obvious that it is meant to allow a bard to cast a spell from his list when gained by the bard class through a bardic class feature.

A mystic theurge can't use it to cast a spell from his cleric side because RAI and RAW, he doesn't have his cleric spells in his spell book. However, any cleric spell he tried to cast would require him to have his arcane bond in hand (by RAW, probably not RAI).

[Sangalor]

Talandor wrote:

Hello everyone,

I am once more confused by arcane bond and its interaction with multiclassing.
Is it an ability modifiying your spellcasting limited to the granting class or not?
--> Could a Magus or Bard use it for their spells?
Please read following pre answering:

Examples
Spoiler:

Magus 5/Wizard 1
a) May he use arcane bond to cast lvl 2 spells from the magus list?
b) Does he have to make a concentration check when casting a lvl2 magus slot spell not wearing the bond item?
--> It seems logic both come together - also a bit strange that an additional ability (bond) should hamper previous casting ability (no concentration check without bond).

Relevant Quote from FAQ:
Spoiler:
Quote:

General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)

—Jason Bulmahn, 10/21/10"

Several points that seem to indicate it is not limited to the wizard class (are these different "arcane bond abilities?):
* Arcane Duelist gains it as an ability and does obviously use it for his spells
* Arcane Bloodline and or "Eldritch Heritage Feat" gain it and use it for sorcerer spells (although its specifically mentioned and one might argue it is a different "arcane bond abilitiy".

This would however also mean that spellcasting would require concentration checks for all spells without the bond.
Do Arcane Duelist and Arcane Bond from Arcane Bloodline make you do concentration checks when not wearing the bond?

Cheers

Arcane bond always applies to the class and its spells you gain it for. See the wizard's arcane bond description:

Wizard arcane bond wrote:

A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities. The bonded object cannot be used to cast spells from the wizard's opposition schools (see arcane school below).

It makes it clear that it only applies to the wizard's spells.

So to answer your parts from above:
1.a) Magus and bard could not use it for their spells (unless they have their own arcane bond class feature which would affect only their spells as well)
1.b) The wizard does not have to make concentration checks to cast magus spells if he has a wizard arcane bond.

The examples you mention to are not fitting:
2.a) Arcane duelist gets this ability on its own. Just because the wizard (and arcane sorcerer and some other bard archetypes) gain it, does not mean that it is tied to the wizard class. That would be like saying because a wizard chose conjuration as an opposed school the same same wizard would have to spend two slots to memorize (and cast) a divine conjuration spell when he picks up a level cleric. And that is not the case :-)
2.b) When you get the arcane bond through the eldritch heritage feat it is completely useless since it is tied to your character level and not any class level with spells. It might only apply if you had a race that gets spell casting (not SLA or SUs) as a racial ability, and there it gets really wonky.
For the sorcerer it's pretty clear: It applies to his sorcerer spells.

[Talandor]

Sangalore wrote:

1.b) The WIZARD does not have to make concentration checks to cast magus spells if he has a WIZARD arcane bond.

There we are - you used WIZARD to identify the character with a wizard lvl and the class. What tells you this is not the case for the arcane bond rule?

Nothing makes clear the arcane bond is a class ability in contrast to a character ability. It has no class level dependent variables.

Both examples (arcane duelist, eldritch heritage (arcane bloodline) indicate the ability is applicable to other spellcaster classes. This does not proof anything, but atleast for me it indicates it is not an ability strongly tied to a class/wizard, but a character.

[Talandor]

ShadowcatX wrote:

A mystic theurge can't use it to cast a spell from his cleric side because RAI and RAW, he doesn't have his cleric spells in his spell book. However, any cleric spell he tried to cast would require him to have his arcane bond in hand (by RAW, probably not RAI).

This is not consistent with your no for magus spell use?

Either the bond is wizard class related - no casting / no concentration check for multiclass caster levels;

OR it is character related:
cast any spellbook (we agree on arcane only) spell available to the character using the bond / make a concentration check when not wearing the bond for any character spell casting.

[Sangalor]

Talandor wrote:

Sangalore wrote:

1.b) The WIZARD does not have to make concentration checks to cast magus spells if he has a WIZARD arcane bond.

There we are - you used WIZARD to identify the character with a wizard lvl and the class. What tells you this is not the case for the arcane bond rule?

Nothing makes clear the arcane bond is a class ability in contrast to a character ability. It has no class level dependent variables.

Both examples (arcane duelist, eldritch heritage (arcane bloodline) indicate the ability is applicable to other spellcaster classes. This does not proof anything, but atleast for me it indicates it is not an ability strongly tied to a class/wizard, but a character.

The ability is gained through the wizard class, so it is a class feature and applies to the wizard class. If you gain it through another class it applies to that class.

They do not need to clarify that it applies to the class ability because they already marked it as spell-like ("Sp"), which is defined here.

Bloodline arcana are untyped (no Su/Sp/Ex/...) rating, so they get special treatment.

So it's quite clear IMO :-)

[Talandor]

Sangalor wrote:

The ability is gained through the wizard class, so it is a class feature and applies to the wizard class. If you gain it through another class it applies to that class.

According to this interpretation the Eldritch Heritage Feat would work to get a bond for Magus or Bard.

Sangalor wrote:

They do not need to clarify that it applies to the class ability because they already marked it as spell-like ("Sp"), which is defined here.

Bloodline arcana are untyped (no Su/Sp/Ex/...) rating, so they get special treatment.

So it's quite clear IMO :-)

Nice catch there! However the markers for arcane bond are very messy:

- Wizard (Ex or Sp)
- Arcane Duelist (Ex)
- Arcane Bloodline (Su)

If the wizard's bond really is "Sp" then you could dispel it. Further there is no spell granting such bond - thus it can not be spell like!? Good point for errate ;)

Therefore I d say it remains unresolved.

[Sangalor]

Talandor wrote:

Sangalor wrote:

The ability is gained through the wizard class, so it is a class feature and applies to the wizard class. If you gain it through another class it applies to that class.

According to this interpretation the Eldritch Heritage Feat would work to get a bond for Magus or Bard.

Uhm, no, because eldritch heritage is 1. not gained through any class I know and 2. gained as a feat it says to apply at a sorcerer level = your character level -2 -> character.

Talandor wrote:

Sangalor wrote:

They do not need to clarify that it applies to the class ability because they already marked it as spell-like ("Sp"), which is defined here.

Bloodline arcana are untyped (no Su/Sp/Ex/...) rating, so they get special treatment.

So it's quite clear IMO :-)

Nice catch there! However the markers for arcane bond are very messy:

- Wizard (Ex or Sp)
- Arcane Duelist (Ex)
- Arcane Bloodline (Su)

If the wizard's bond really is "Sp" then you could dispel it. Further there is no spell granting such bond - thus it can not be spell like!? Good point for errate ;)

Therefore I d say it remains unresolved.

Ah, nice catch :-)

So that either means
a) it's messy
b) it's more powerful for arcane duelist and sorcerer (because EX and SU are better than SP) on purpose... :-/

[Talandor]

If we agree on messy - I d appreciate a faq hit.

Till then I hope to get it resolved with my GM.