|
Unsure whether this is a rule or lore question, but here goes: There is a precedent in Pathfinder of Lawful Neutral deities having paladin followers, the most visible being Abadar. I was wondering if, as a Lawful Neutral deity, with the potential for Lawful Good followers, the Master of Masters may have people who crusade in his name, doing things like preserving old knowledge, protecting transcendent thinkers from being censored, and perfecting themselves through service, that kind of thing.
I can see where there might be issues, as Irori is a very hands-off god and each of his worshipers seeks enlightenment in their own way, so it's not like paladins can enforce his tenets or smite his enemies. I also understand that technically you could consider a Lawful Good monk or cleric a functional paladin, but I'm thinking more about specifically taking the Paladin class.
Am I unenlightened here, or am I on to something?
There was supposed to be a paladin code for Irori in the Dragon Empires Primer, but it fell through the cracks and JJ and Sean Reynolds have since decided that Iroridins are too few and far between to have a unified code.
There was supposed to be a paladin code for Irori in the Dragon Empires Primer, but it fell through the cracks
Where did you hear this?
I never liked the city god of civilization having paladins myself, and Irori seems to be to monastic to have horse and armour types. But if you model your paladin after a whirling dervish... A stealthy holy warrior with a pair of scimitars in monks robes... Lawful Good wandering the land... hmm no that's more like Sarenrae... Take away the scimitars and give him a staff but keep the monks robes... Yeah. A Sohei bent on the thwarting of evil in the land... Kind of like having a Paladin Rogue, sneaking around the castle keeping out the demons and such that may be sneaking in :)
|
There's an upcoming prestige class book?
Yes, there is. It's Golarion specific and sounds pretty awesome.
|
There was supposed to be a paladin code for Irori in the Dragon Empires Primer, but it fell through the cracksWhere did you hear this?
OK, I can roll with that. But now, at risk of following an annoying trend: JAMES JACOBS! Can I haz an Irori Paladin code cheezburger? 'Cause that leaves them as the only Paladins without their code spelled out as per Faiths of ... books.Irori's paladins don't have an organized "knighthood," which is the main reason they're rare. They're individuals. That said... I thought that we put an Irori paladin code into the Dragon Empires Primer... I know I requested one to be in there...
There was supposed to be a paladin code for Irori in the Dragon Empires Primer, but it fell through the cracksWhere did you hear this?
In this thread.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was wondering if, as a Lawful Neutral deity, with the potential for Lawful Good followers, the Master of Masters may have people who crusade in his name, doing things like preserving old knowledge, protecting transcendent thinkers from being censored, and perfecting themselves through service, that kind of thing.
A Paladin of Irori would make sense to be a proponent of not just self-perfection, but a champion of the notion that every person has a right to self-perfection as well, and a tireless foe of anyone who attempts to prevent people from advancing or improving themselves in this manner, or impose conditions or beliefs on others than hamper their physical, intellectual or spiritual growth.
A cruel authority that prohibits their peasants from learning to read and write, or train in the use of weaponry, in an attempt to keep them under control or dependent upon the authority for defense, would be the kind of tyrant that would incur the wrath of the Paladin of Irori.
On a more do-gooder level, a Paladin of Irori might work to help communities become self-sufficient, so that they can devote more of their lives to self-improvement, and not be trapped in an endless struggle merely to put food on their tables.
|
|
Okay, so the answer to my first question was basically "yes, but they're on a case-by-case basis." I've actually been inspired, thanks in no small part to Sean K. Reynold's fascinating article on the Master of Masters in Tide of Honor, to consider making an Irori-following paladin-like character. I say paladin-like because I'm not certain whether to use the paladin class proper or use the Sohei archetype for monks.
The character would be for use in a game of Council of Thieves, and would be a tiefling with the Infernal Bastard trait. The idea is that this hellspawn turned to the worship of Irori because he wanted to transcend the taint in his blood and become something better. What kind of a code would such a fellow have? I'm not that good at writing up codes, and since each paladin of Irori essentially makes their own, this is one that would be specific to this tiefling in Westcrown. A few points that it'd probably at least touch on are:
Protection of knowledge, history and the truth - Essentially, the Order of the Rack would be incredibly important enemies to this hero. Their practice of censoring and rewriting Chelish history to suit the whims of the upper class is anathema to achieving enlightenment.
Defiance against Asmodeus' temptations - This isn't just because of the fact that he's devil-blooded and thus has to consciously fight his own malicious urges, but he must also resist the urge to choose the quick and easy paths Chelish society offers, whether through money or magic. Everything he has and is has to be earned honestly and patiently. He also exhorts others to do the same, to reap the rewards of their own hands, rather than taking the meager handouts the Prince of Darkness sometimes tosses your way.
I'm thinking maybe there should be other components like exposing secrets (very important in Council of Thieves) and of course, defending the innocent and fighting for justice like every paladin worth his salt should. Any advice on this and how to format it into a standardized code (by which I mean like how it's presented in the Faiths Of... books, as a creed with each component as an affirming statement "I swear, etc.)
OK, I can roll with that. But now, at risk of following an annoying trend: JAMES JACOBS! Can I haz an Irori Paladin code cheezburger? 'Cause that leaves them as the only Paladins without their code spelled out as per Faiths of ... books.Irori's paladins don't have an organized "knighthood," which is the main reason they're rare. They're individuals. That said... I thought that we put an Irori paladin code into the Dragon Empires Primer... I know I requested one to be in there...
Ah. Nobody talked to me about that.
|
|
Ah. Nobody talked to me about that.OK, I can roll with that. But now, at risk of following an annoying trend: JAMES JACOBS! Can I haz an Irori Paladin code cheezburger? 'Cause that leaves them as the only Paladins without their code spelled out as per Faiths of ... books.Irori's paladins don't have an organized "knighthood," which is the main reason they're rare. They're individuals. That said... I thought that we put an Irori paladin code into the Dragon Empires Primer... I know I requested one to be in there...
That sounds like a line from WOTC splat book developer. oO
*shrug* I don't have much involvement in anything but the hardcovers nowadays, there simply isn't time for any of us to read every single product before it's published. I mentioned it because I'm "the gods guy" and I know we discussed (for Faiths of Purity) whether or not various LN gods have paladins, and why Abadar has a paladin order in that book even though he's the only LN god listed there, and why Irori isn't listed there. I'm sure James was looking at the Dragon Empires book in the context of "Irori is much more prominent in these lands and may actually have paladin orders that he wouldn't necessarily have in the Inner Sea region."
There is a prestige class book comeing out, with 30 or prestige classes for the campaign setting. If I recall correctly, one will be linked to Paladins of Irori.
Link.
*shrug* I don't have much involvement in anything but the hardcovers nowadays, there simply isn't time for any of us to read every single product before it's published.
Obviously CLONING is the only answer!!!
|
|
*shrug* I don't have much involvement in anything but the hardcovers nowadays, there simply isn't time for any of us to read every single product before it's published.Obviously CLONING is the only answer!!!
And this turns into another 'what *can't* Simulacrum do?' thread. :)
Are Sean's hit dice integral to his success as a game designer? Would a 'half-strength' Sean Reynolds simulacrum still be able to intimidate errors off of the page and headbutt a late writer into submission?
|
|
If I recall correctly I think james jacobs said paladins of irori are pretty rare which is why it wasn't put in faiths of balance. However there is presidence for them not only because of the new prestige class but in PFS there is a scenario with one as a key npc.
Yes, this was addressed earlier in the thread. I don't know much about PFS (I only just registered a few days ago for the shiny Silver Crusade badge), but I know that there was also such a character, Habesuta Hatsue, in Tide of Honor.
This is more fluff and less mechanics. Though I forgot chastity would be an important part of it. Thanks for reminding me, Generic Villain!Why chastity? My only character that worshipped Irori trained himself to be the perfect lover.
Hmmm. Since we're talking about Irori (I just realized...a palindrome!) training for perfection (in love) ergo training to be perfect (in love) is not the path for enlightenment. Perfection is unattainable; one side of the scale (imperfection the other side), and Irori is neutral/balanced (with a Lawful bent).
The process of perfection (in love)...that sounds more of a path that a follower of Irori may have taken. Yes/No?
That'll be 2 cents please,
Rom
|
|
Self-mastery and self-perfection can mean different things to different people. There's no one exact path, I suspect.
One might focus on a life of self-denial, drinking only water, eating only bread, abstaining from sex, sleeping on the ground, etc.
Another might dress in silks and eat fine food and drink wine, but never to excess, as he sees the object not to *deny* himself, but to *master* himself. He might think it impossible to master your desires and control your urges, if you never have any.
One might consider being the perfect husband and father to be a far greater act of self-perfection than to remain celibate. Presumably, *most* followers of Irori eventually marry and / or have children, or else the faith wouldn't be long for this world...
"Hey, did you hear about the god who demanded that nobody have sex?"
"No."
"Exactly."
Contributor
|
Self-mastery and self-perfection can mean different things to different people. There's no one exact path, I suspect.
One might focus on a life of self-denial, drinking only water, eating only bread, abstaining from sex, sleeping on the ground, etc.
Another might dress in silks and eat fine food and drink wine, but never to excess, as he sees the object not to *deny* himself, but to *master* himself. He might think it impossible to master your desires and control your urges, if you never have any.
One might consider being the perfect husband and father to be a far greater act of self-perfection than to remain celibate. Presumably, *most* followers of Irori eventually marry and / or have children, or else the faith wouldn't be long for this world...
"Hey, did you hear about the god who demanded that nobody have sex?"
"No."
"Exactly."
Gruhastha, the Vudran god associated with Irori mentioned in the old Campaign Setting (but not in the ISWG or PF #53, so his canon status may be questioned) is derived from the Sanskrit word for householder - an adult married male, working, and with children. In Hinduism, this was traditionally a step in the life process of devout men, prior to the forest and ascetic phases, in which one endeavored to be the perfect husband and father, as you put it.
Marriage, intimacy, and children are allowed in some Buddhist monastic or priestly traditions in the RW, as well.