Alright, here's a bit of a head scratcher that cropped up in a conversation between my gf and I. Realizing the potential ticking time bomb of alignment death, I thought I'd see how others felt about it out of sheer curiosity. It's a topic that rarely comes up, as far as I know, but an interesting one nonetheless.
Using your enemy's remains, is it evil?
To give an example, I've got a barbarian waiting in the wings I want to give a try. The mechanics designed to fit the fluff, it's a Wild Rager True Primitive. He focuses almost entirely on bone equipment, crafting them specifically to shatter and leave bits and pieces in a foe, so that they are weakened over time by loss of blood (splintering weapon feat, I believe). He also has a tendency to use enemy corpses as improvised bludgeoning tools....
Now, this is where the question comes into play. Given the character's background, he uses up as much of a slain enemy as possible. This stems from a hunting state of mind, really. Meat is used for food, hide for clothing and various other things leather is good for, and bone & the like are crafted into weaponry. He literally harvests each and every kill he makes.
Now, for animals and beasts, this is rather obvious. That's not evil. The question does come up, when you've got intelligent beings, and humanoids. He can make for quite a few arrow heads and spear tips with a single orc corpse, and he gets a handy water mug out of the skull. Orc jerky, and an orc-skin quiver to boot! Even if the rest of it isn't needed, all that rigid bone is more weaponry to use on his next opponents.
I know many characters would do a double take, and a few paladins who would be attempting his damnedest to try and detect the slightest bit of evil in this fella. He's desecrating remains that could use a proper burial! (Though, in my experience, the corpses are typically left to rot and provide food for the carrion eaters.) It's just not 'civilized', after all!
Where do the players come in on this whole thing? Is the usage of intelligent creature remains in a manner of a , particularly humanoids like humans, elves, drow, orc, dwarf, halfling, etc, an evil act?
Personally, I'd say no, and not just because I want to play that form of character. I'd say no on the simple fact that adventurers really never bury corpses of their enemies, thus by inaction inviting all the goings on of the natural world to have their way with the remains. If the adventurers don't care about the corpses and leave them where they drop, why should treating a dead sentient from battle like it was a dead beast during the hunt, be evil?
I would say for the most part doing anything to the bodies of intelligent creatures is evil. I think that situqtionally it can be done. Ie we need to hide the body or well be discovered. Or some other event needed to fool the bad guys.
But for the most part greatly the bodies of sentient features like you would a deer is only view Shelly evil.
I dont think its usually evil to use bodies, though it may be chaotic (depends ). They're objects at that point. Killing sentients to use the bodies is evil though.
Desecrating remains is arguably not a victimless crime; in many cases you're arguably causing additional suffering by exacerbating the grief of the victim's loved ones.
That said, what of the various things that can be done to a body are 'evil' is I think legitimately culture-specific. I think it's reasonable to imagine a culture that sees making use of the corpse of a slain enemy a form of honoring that enemy's strength, and that simply letting it rot would be a grievous insult. By converting the enemy to food and weaponry, you allow him to fight on even in death. Heck, there may even be some historical or even modern human cultures with similar worldviews.
A superstitious fantasy culture might have various taboos even within this worldview - for example, never consuming the dead flesh of certain kinds of magic-users so they don't control you from beyond the grave, choosing to craft weapons from a fallen warrior's bones similar to the sort of weapon that person preferred in life, as those will naturally be strongest, ritual cleansing of the body of anyone who died cursed before you use the body for anything (since the curse will obviously enter you or anything you make from the remains if you don't), etc.
That said, I personally find the idea of cannibalism and pseudo-cannibalism awfully distasteful (not so much the bones-as-weapons stuff for whatever reason - I'm not claiming that this is super internally consistant, just that I have a gut negative reaction to the idea of intelligent creatures as food), and I might not be comfortable DMing for a player who didn't handle that aspect of a character in a tasteful way, or playing at the same table. Obviously that's my problem, not yours, and if I don't like it I can leave, but you may want to run a check with your tablemates to see if that sort of thing (or that sort of thing handled in a juvenile way, if you're planning on that route) would make them uncomfortable, if you want to avoid making your friends sick.
Evil... No, no it's not evil.
But there is that potential ick factor which could ruin a game; talk with your group first. It reaches the level of nonstandard as an abusively addictive drug addict. As long as none of the players nor GM are offended, it could be a great roleplaying experience.
but you may want to run a check with your tablemates to see if that sort of thing (or that sort of thing handled in a juvenile way, if you're planning on that route) would make them uncomfortable, if you want to avoid making your friends sick.
The group that I typically play with (if I ever play with them again, given the dump truck load of utter BS they hit my gf and I with last time, but we're game-starved), they tend to do much, much worse things, depending on the character. I know the DM, and at least one other player, have no problem with it given the way some real-world cultures worked, and the fact that it's not that much of a stretch of the imagination that the example you posed as a fantasy culture actually happened real-world prehistory. The rest are either too mature to care, or too immature to care. I game with a group of rejects (literally, they can never keep a group that isn't with one another, NO ONE wants to play with them, for good reason), because every other one of my and my gf's friends are all full up on their gaming groups, or just can't seem to find one (essentially being 'rejected' ourselves). Finding a game in Sacramento is a pain...
In the mean time, I typically handle such things as cannibalism, and the like, in rather tasteful ways. If anything I would typically explain what my character does the first combat or two, and after that simply state that I'm 'harvesting' them. There's no real reason to get into it and describe it multiple times, especially if it's the same exact thing. Nothing more than a "My character cleans the corpse, skins it, harvests the meat, and gets to work cleaning and collecting the bones that could be used to craft his next set of weapons."... With a brief description of the ritualistic way it is done if people aren't bothered by the idea.
Has anyone ever had second thoughts as to using dragonhide armor because it comes from an intelligent creature? Not that I have seen, so I say chop up those corpses, because there are all sorts of intelligent beings that get used in crafting of items and magical components
Well you know, they used to have elf hands on key chains at one point ;)
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Maybe it's my background hanging out with the barbarians of Prax in Runequest, but I see no *moral* issue with this.
(1) You are not hunting these sentient creatures. You are defeating them in battle, fair and square.
(2) You are not wearing their body parts as trophies to intimidate other members of their race; you are simply trying to avoid wasting resources.
As a GM, I would allow it even if your character were LG. You intend no harm nor disrespect; in fact, you're "honoring" the fallen foe by using his remains to the fullest extent possible.
HOWEVER, culturally it'll be a blast to roleplay. While *I* don't think it's evil (and therefore gods like Sarenrae or Iomedae wouldn't, either), I'm certain that most paladins would find it distasteful, if not out-and-out wrong. Most human cultures deplore the use of the remains of sentient beings in such a manner, and consider such behavior "evil". Who drinks out of the skulls of their enemies? BBEGs, not "good" barbarians.
So as a GM, I would not only allow it, but encourage it, and it would not affect your alignment. BUT I would make sure the NPCs were very leery of you, and any town with a paladin would have him following you around trying to catch you with Detect Evil.
Fun for all!
Has anyone ever had second thoughts as to using dragonhide armor because it comes from an intelligent creature? Not that I have seen, so I say chop up those corpses, because there are all sorts of intelligent beings that get used in crafting of items and magical components
good point
My vote goes to not evil too.
I don't know about the harvesting, but I know that eating intelligent humanoids is evil.
The witch hex "cook people" spells that one out. I rolled a witch to play in an upcoming game who will take the role of party "chef". I'm praying that the paladin will never figure out that the Leg of Lamb is actually Leg of Larry!
You wanna carve up the dragonhide and turn it into armor? If it's one of the evil types, then you're *fine.
Just killed the CN Elf brigand? Wanna make some elfhide armor? Yeah, even in places that don't like haughty elves, that's still not gonna go over very well.
/* - I expect dragon's frown on this sort of thing.
Has anyone ever had second thoughts as to using dragonhide armor because it comes from an intelligent creature? Not that I have seen, so I say chop up those corpses, because there are all sorts of intelligent beings that get used in crafting of items and magical componentsDespite the fact that they may be smart, They're not "people" as most people relate to them. They're monsters first and foremost. And given that Dragons generally don't hesitate to eat people, you won't find many PETA activists at your doorstep for using dragonhide armor... a known favorite of druids.
The fact that Druids are okay using this armor should answer your question right off.
I would argue that Dragons are a higher lifeform then humanoids, but I have no proof, just opinion
I don't know about the harvesting, but I know that eating intelligent humanoids is evil.
The witch hex "cook people" spells that one out. I rolled a witch to play in an upcoming game who will take the role of party "chef". I'm praying that the paladin will never figure out that the Leg of Lamb is actually Leg of Larry!
Its just not the paladin.
I had a character CN Thief who had super high int, maxed out ranks in cooking skill, and masterwork tools. so about a +13-15 depending on levels.Always, always cooked what they killed it was a great roleplaying oppurtunity.
Only one player would go along with it.
Alas, when our giant fighter died, and I made kidney pie, they did were upset.
Character also created an orphanage-cooking school....
Its a blast to play, but be prepared for some push back.
ahhh spicy dragon blood soup!
It depends on how evil you think ethnocentrism is. For example some cultures eat the heart of their enemies as a sign of respect. It's not evil by their standards, only ours. Just something to consider.
Hey, if you can wear red dragon armor why not a bandit skin leather armor?
this is Order of the Stick material I'd say.
Look at my red dragon armor
Look at my bandit skin leather armor
Look at my goblin baby skin leather bikini
:o
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Alright, here's a bit of a head scratcher that cropped up in a conversation between my gf and I. Realizing the potential ticking time bomb of alignment death, I thought I'd see how others felt about it out of sheer curiosity. It's a topic that rarely comes up, as far as I know, but an interesting one nonetheless.
Using your enemy's remains, is it evil?
To give an example, I've got a barbarian waiting in the wings I want to give a try. The mechanics designed to fit the fluff, it's a Wild Rager True Primitive. He focuses almost entirely on bone equipment, crafting them specifically to shatter and leave bits and pieces in a foe, so that they are weakened over time by loss of blood (splintering weapon feat, I believe). He also has a tendency to use enemy corpses as improvised bludgeoning tools....
Now, this is where the question comes into play. Given the character's background, he uses up as much of a slain enemy as possible. This stems from a hunting state of mind, really. Meat is used for food, hide for clothing and various other things leather is good for, and bone & the like are crafted into weaponry. He literally harvests each and every kill he makes.
Now, for animals and beasts, this is rather obvious. That's not evil. The question does come up, when you've got intelligent beings, and humanoids. He can make for quite a few arrow heads and spear tips with a single orc corpse, and he gets a handy water mug out of the skull. Orc jerky, and an orc-skin quiver to boot! Even if the rest of it isn't needed, all that rigid bone is more weaponry to use on his next opponents.
I know many characters would do a double take, and a few paladins who would be attempting his damnedest to try and detect the slightest bit of evil in this fella. He's desecrating remains that could use a proper burial! (Though, in my experience, the corpses are typically left to rot and provide food for the carrion eaters.) It's just not 'civilized', after all!
Where do the players come in on this whole thing? Is the usage of...
This is an interesting question. I think its more a cultural thing than an alignment thing. The treatment of dead bodies is not inherently right or wrong no matter what you do, UNLESS you specifically use them to cause someone hideous emotional injury or raise them as undead. Everything else is more of a cultural choice. Some cultures believe that all aspects of a body must be used. If you killed the guy, the only way to honor him is to make sure that his death was not pointless and thus put him to use. As you said, this cultural perception is a hunter strategy, and perfectly reasonable and acceptable. Just as reasonable as allowing the bodies to rot in the ground, or burning the bodies, or doing whatever you think gives the spirits of that particular culture "rest in the afterlife."
In Pathfinder terms, I suppose, the reason why this might cause an alignment problem is the whole "restful dead" thing is LITERAL. Say you kill a person and don't inter him to his sociatal expectations. He might just be miffed enough to come back and haunt you. That means you've indirectly spawned an undead through your actions. Otherwise, his actions might actually be considered good aligned, since he's making sure that he's honoring the dead and making certain that their bodies will be put to use, recycled naturally, and his "memory" so to speak, will live on. It's only evil if you kill the guy for the SOLE PURPOSE of making his body into tools (i.e. "I like that guy's skull, i think it'd make a perfect drinking cup. I'm gonna murder him for it!"). But if you've already done the deed...no sense letting him go to waste...or remain in a state from which he might rise as undead, btw.
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I had this come up with a Chaotic neutral character/player a little while back. One player routinely animated fallen foes and used them in combat, and overall I was fine with that.
The player crossed a line here when he went into a bar filled with 1-2 level commoners, cast inflict moderate wounds in order get corpses to animate (and to tick off another player). That was evil and I started to think of this player as 'Columbine'.
As for the barbarian using the corpses as a meat shield, I think of it as chaotic, because in some cases you're ignoring burial customs and general respect for the dead (and I get that some creatures don't warrant it in most character's books), but not evil.
I would say not evil, maybe a bit off, but not evil.
In fact one of my players is playing a LG fighter who crafts things from bones for his equipment. He specifically avoids harvesting the bones of intelligent enemies, though I wouldn't hit him with an alignment change if he did once in a while.
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Lizardfolk eat other sentient creatures and are N, but they do it under a "waste not" approach to existence. Sounds a bit CN to me (as Kerney notes above, most if not all cultures give some reverence to dead and he's interacting with those cultures and violating their customs). Wouldn't say it's a "good" or "evil" approach as it's cultural and not done for malice but similarly not done to better others.
Simply a question of social mores. Some cultures who venerate their ancestors and dead will object (and actually that would be most throughout real history.. fantasy mileage will of course vary) . There will in all likelihood be a deity around with the portfolio of the "honoured dead". His/her priesthood will object, violently so. To them, it would be "evil", vile and despicable.
That being said : To batter your foes with the thighbones of your enemies ? More power to you !
Of course, there is always the matter of resepecting your enemy and his/her customs.
Oh man. I was running a 3.5 good-ish Warlock in a Frostburn campaign and at some point I was running around in drow-skin armor. It was awesome. Got me in to quite a bit of trouble when we went further south and found "civilization," though.
So yeah, I'd put it at "chaotic," not "evil."
When you die your soul or whatever goes bye bye. At that point your body is an object. No longer a living creature.
While raising it from the dead as a zombie as good/evil is a topic for another thread- I think most things aside from that would be largely cultural.
Some cultures eat the dead. Others bury them. Some burn them. Some use them like they would any slain animal- taking every bit they can.
None are good, bad, wrong, right, or even evil. They are just how different cultures deal with the fact that something is dead and gone.
Myself? My character might be abit squeamish when the Barb starts hacking into dude's femur to make a new mace but.. its no worse than when the wizard wants to do it to the dragon to make a new staff, or store the blood for potions or the eyes for.. well you get the idea.
If its not evil to do to the corpse of the deer you killed for supper, its not evil to do to the corpse of the murderer you just killed.
Creepy? To any character i've ever played- yes. Evil? No.
Evil isn't creepy. Evil is evil. This, imo, isn't that.
-S
It's frigging unsettling...but its undeniably recycling. Its similar to using an enemy as a literal meat-shield to soak up a volley of arrows after you've slain it and tossing it aside once your done.Fully interactive environment.And options.
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When you die your soul or whatever goes bye bye. At that point your body is an object. No longer a living creature.
While I agree with that, real-world cultures don't necessarily map 100% over to fantasy cultures. In a world where the body is needed to cast raise dead, an individual's family might be strongly opposed to anything being done to the body of a dead family member, including modern civilized concepts like pumping all their blood out and replacing it with chemical preservatives or seperately bagging and replacing the organs after an autopsy.
Even if the family has no intention of ever raising or ressurecting a loved one, appearances are appearances, and letting the body of a loved one be cremated or 'sky buried' or stripped of flesh and baked in clay for mummification rituals would result in a loss of face, as it makes it obvious to everyone else that the family has no desire to pay the necessary funds to have their 'loved one' return to them, but is quite comfortable with them 'staying dead.'
In a setting where cutting up dragons (generally smarter and wiser than the humans doing the cutting up) to make armor is acceptable, I'm not sure whether or not any 'logical' extrapolation of how people would react to armor made out of elves or orcs or demons or giants would follow any real world assumptions. Rather than generalize on such matters, I'd just let players have their characters react as they wish them to react, without making any sort of assumption as to what would be a 'reasonable' reaction for the character or the setting or the system.
Not to be the one guy but....that pc from my understanding would be LN or TN. if you forced your self to use every part of every thing you killed (LN)but if you only did it out of a society habit (TN)
but if I was your DM i would only think that way if I saw one hell of a back story. With out one CE with out a second thought