Can non-arcane casters with familiars take Improved Familiar?


Rules Questions


Okay so this is a very edge case but there are a handful of ways for a non-arcane caster to acquire a familiar (Druids or other nature focused arcane casters with certain animal domains; certain combinations of Eldritch Heritage feats).

If you are such a character can you spend a feat on Improved Familiar in the future? And if so will your levels of Divine casters (or your class levels if you don't actually have any caster levels) qualify you for familiars? The chart says "Arcane Spellcaster Level" so RAW you might not be able to take the feat?

(as I noted this is an edge case - as a GM I'd probably let a Druid with an animal domain take Improved Familiar but might restrict them to only taking a familiar that was clearly related to their domain - i.e. taking the Celestial/Fiendish version of their domain animal familiar)

Liberty's Edge

Rycaut wrote:

Okay so this is a very edge case but there are a handful of ways for a non-arcane caster to acquire a familiar (Druids or other nature focused arcane casters with certain animal domains; certain combinations of Eldritch Heritage feats).

If you are such a character can you spend a feat on Improved Familiar in the future? And if so will your levels of Divine casters (or your class levels if you don't actually have any caster levels) qualify you for familiars? The chart says "Arcane Spellcaster Level" so RAW you might not be able to take the feat?

(as I noted this is an edge case - as a GM I'd probably let a Druid with an animal domain take Improved Familiar but might restrict them to only taking a familiar that was clearly related to their domain - i.e. taking the Celestial/Fiendish version of their domain animal familiar)

Are you confusing familiars with animal companions?


Most of the abilities that give non-arcane classes a familiar have some wording that includes "the [class] effective wizard level is their [class] level -[some number]."

Example:
Familiar (Ex)
Prerequisite: Advanced talents, major magic talent, minor magic talent
Benefit: A rogue with this talent gains a familiar as the familiar option of the wizard’s arcane bond class feature. This ability functions exactly like that part of the class feature, but the rogue’s effective wizard level is her rogue level –4.

So the rogue with this talent has an effective wizard level of their level -4. So at level 11 (an effective wizard level of 7), a rogue with this talent could grab the feat Improved Familiar and upgrade their familiar to an Imp, Faerie dragon, Homunculus, etc.


Improved familiar does not apply to animal companions.

Arcane bond with eldritch heritage for the arcane bloodline could give you a familiar. The feat says your equivalent caster level for the power is your character level -2. So I would say you could take improved familiar 2 levels later than a wizard/witch.

I can't recall any other way to get a familiar off the top of my head, but there might be one. But I think it would have to say what your equivalent caster level was so you could determine the famaliar's powers.

ninja'd by Lab_Rat. Thx, I forgot the rogue talent because I've never heard of anyone using it. But again it tells you what your effective caster level is with respect to the familiar.

Grand Lodge

There are animal domains like the monkey domain that grant a familiar. The OP is not confusing familiars with animal companions.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

Improved familiar does not apply to animal companions.

Arcane bond with eldritch heritage for the arcane bloodline could give you a familiar. The feat says your equivalent caster level for the power is your character level -2. So I would say you could take improved familiar 2 levels later than a wizard/witch.

I can't recall any other way to get a familiar off the top of my head, but there might be one. But I think it would have to say what your equivalent caster level was so you could determine the famaliar's powers.

ninja'd by Lab_Rat. Thx, I forgot the rogue talent because I've never heard of anyone using it. But again it tells you what your effective caster level is with respect to the familiar.

Here's an oddball one:

Tumor Familiar (Ex): ...The tumor has all the abilities of the animal it resembles (for example, a batlike tumor can fly) and familiar abilities based on the alchemist’s caster level (though some familiar abilities may be useless to an alchemist)....

In this case, it does not actually say that you have an effective wizard level equal to your Alchemist level, but I would say it is implied. It would also be pretty weird to get an improved tumor familiar, making an Imp or something like that a tumor on your body. It also specifies that the tumor familiar is diminutive or tiny. So the way I would rule this (I'll see if others agree with me) is that the alchemist could take Improved Familiar but would have to choose a Diminutive or Tiny creature from the list.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

blackbloodtroll wrote:
There are animal domains like the monkey domain that grant a familiar. The OP is not confusing familiars with animal companions.

Relevent text:

Quote:

Monkey Domain

The balanced wisdom, skill, agility, and playfulness of the monkey are the model for your spiritual discipline.

Granted Powers:

Familiar: You gain a monkey familiar. Your effective wizard level for this ability is equal to your druid level. Your druid level stacks with levels from other classes that grant familiars when determining the powers of your familiar.

So in this case you treat your druid or cleric level as your wizard level, so at the appropriate level you could definitely choose improved familiar, though in this case I would probably rule that you would have to choose something monkey-like (so a celestial, fiendish, or entropic monkey, or maybe a Zoog, since its description says it has simian appendages "This skittish amalgam of beast parts has luminous eyes, a rat's tail, simian appendages, and tendrils extending from a mole-like nose")

Grand Lodge

Alchemist can take the improved familiar feat.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Alchemist can take the improved familiar feat.

Do you have a rules link on this one? Last I saw it hadn't been decided one way or the other...


I hadn't read up on the monkey domain. That is kinda kool. I'll have to think about it.

Yeah, the alchemist is the red checker amongst the chess pieces. I would probably say by RAW it gets nothing. But in my game I would give it to them.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Alchemist can take the improved familiar feat.

Nope. Alchemists are not arcane spell casters and do not get a familiar.

In regards to the Tumor familiar: Alchemists don't actually get a familiar. They get a tumor blob that acts like a familiar and mimics any of the standard familiars. Thus they can not take improved familiar (in addition to lacking arcane casting levels). You can not make a raven tumor and then upgrade it to an Imp.

Grand Lodge

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4lj7?How-does-the-alchemist-use-discoveries-tha t-are
If a an alchemist can take craft wondrous item, why not improved familiar?


By raw they can not craft any magic item that requires a spell to be cast (they can not cast spells). They don't have a caster level. This is why the Brew Potion ability specifically says that they can use their Alchemist level as their caster level for the purpose of creating potions. The Ask James Jacob's thread is a great thing and provides some insight but it is not official rules thread. Alchemists have yet to be errata'd to give them spellcaster levels, etc. Until they are, allowing them to is purely houseruling.

I stand by my original statement.

Grand Lodge

There are recent APs with example alchemists with craft feats. That seems pretty RAW.


Just a note, I'm fairly convinced that the intention for the alchemist is that they're crafters. Although the recent monk/flurry thing makes me wonder a bit, so I'm not as convinced as before.

Also, James Jacobs is the original designer of the alchemist.

Grand Lodge

Seriously, the homunculus familiar screams alchemist.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Seriously, the homunculus familiar screams alchemist.

I agree, and I'd say since JJ has stated that the Alchemist was supposed to have a caster level for item creation feats, I see no reason that he shouldn't get Improved Familiar.


When I respond on the rules forum I stick to a rules as written approach. People want to know what the rules are not what they should be. As such my responses are flavored to that end. I understood JJ's intent when I wrote my responses. Those were his intentions and for some reason they did not make it through editing and have not been altered via errata or FAQ. To me that indicates that the designers are happy with the way it is.

That does not mean that you can not do things the way you like. It just means that any difference is a house rule and you should
a) If a player - Discuss it with your GM and decide if it is an acceptable change
b) If a GM - Let your players know ahead of time so that they can make a more informed choice during character generation.

Silver Crusade

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Normally Lab_Rat I would agree with you but in this instance I think you're wrong.

This is Tumor Familiar in its entirety:

Tumor Familiar (Ex):

Benefit: The alchemist creates a Diminutive or Tiny tumor on his body, usually on his back or stomach. As a standard action, the alchemist can have the tumor detach itself from his body as a separate creature vaguely resembling a kind of animal suitable for a familiar (bat, cat, and so on) and move about as if it were an independent creature. The tumor can reattach itself to the alchemist as a standard action. The tumor has all the abilities of the animal it resembles (for example, a batlike tumor can fly) and familiar abilities based on the alchemist’s caster level (though some familiar abilities may be useless to an alchemist). The tumor acts as the alchemist’s familiar whether attached or separated (providing a skill bonus, the Alertness feat, and so on). When attached to the alchemist, the tumor has fast healing 5. An alchemist’s extracts and mutagens are considered spells for the purposes of familiar abilities like share spells and deliver touch spells. If a tumor familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized procedure that costs 200 gp per alchemist level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete.

It is because they don't cast spells in the traditional fashion that this discovery was created. Just like alchemical zombie was created because alchemists don't normally have access to animate dead and alchemical simulacrum was created because they lack access to lesser simulacrum. Nor then should they be capable of taking Craft Construct to create homunculi and other constructs, though there is a precedent established already for them being able to do so:

Spoiler:

Alpon Caromarc, a 13th-level alchemist, has a personal homunculus and several other constructs running around Schloss Caromarc in Trial of the Beast (not to mention the titular Beast himself). And though he isn't statted up in the actual adventure, the fact that he created them all is never in dispute.

Frankly, the idea of describing a scene where the tumor on an alchemist's back detaches and changes into a homunculus is an awesome one (not to mention seven shades of creepy) that shouldn't be discounted. In the end, the only thing preventing an alchemist from obtaining Improved Familiar is the DMs discretion and if Lab_Rat feels that strongly about it, then it will never happen in any game that he runs. And if that's ok for him, then that's fine by me. I just hope that he understands the intent of the discovery's creation was to give the alchemist a creepy familiar.


I'm partial to a turmorous Silvanshee familiar. It's a hideously colored cancerous growth...but it's in the form of a cute flying cat the meows! And it can heal others! Perfect mix of kowaii (scary) and kawaii (cute).


Lab_Rat wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Alchemist can take the improved familiar feat.

Nope. Alchemists are not arcane spell casters and do not get a familiar.

In regards to the Tumor familiar: Alchemists don't actually get a familiar. They get a tumor blob that acts like a familiar and mimics any of the standard familiars. Thus they can not take improved familiar (in addition to lacking arcane casting levels). You can not make a raven tumor and then upgrade it to an Imp.

How about Evolved Familiar?


Lab_Rat wrote:

By raw they can not craft any magic item that requires a spell to be cast (they can not cast spells). They don't have a caster level. This is why the Brew Potion ability specifically says that they can use their Alchemist level as their caster level for the purpose of creating potions. The Ask James Jacob's thread is a great thing and provides some insight but it is not official rules thread. Alchemists have yet to be errata'd to give them spellcaster levels, etc. Until they are, allowing them to is purely houseruling.

I stand by my original statement.

Any character, including alchemists, can take Master Craftsman and effectively have both Craft Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item with respect to the skill he takes Master Craftsman for. And most alchemists are taking a lot of skill ranks in Craft Alchemy. This is at least a way to keep Alchemists from being disallowed from making Dust of Disappearance and Elixers.

Sovereign Court

Let's look at an example:

Blight Druid wrote:

Nature Bond (Ex)

A blight druid may not bond with an animal companion, but may either call a familiar as a wizard of her druid level or select from the Darkness, Death, and Destruction domains in addition to those normally available.

Now when you look at Improved Familiar, you'll see it talks about Arcane Spellcaster Level - character level, not caster level.

So a level 5 blight druid can have a familiar as a level 5 wizard, and therefore take certain improved familiars.

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