For the longest time the casters in my group (myself included) have taken for granted the fact that when the Wizard wants to cast the 60ft diameter Fireball but doesn't want to hit our Fighter he just centers the spell exactly 35ft from him. Up until recently that was never an issue in my mind but I started thinking about it and how does someone, in the heat of combat mind you, know what is exactly 35ft? Are all adventurers born-to-be contractors and construction workers? My question is that is there some rule we have overlooked that addresses this and if not does anyone have suggestions for a house-rule that could make this less ridiculous.
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Greetings, fellow traveller.
As per PRD in the Magic section (Spell Descriptions -> Effect), there is no such rule, i. e. rolling of dice for targeting an emanation/spread or burst like e. g. a fireball.
It is always said you choose or select or designate like in PRD Magic section:
[Y]ou select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
I could think of something like under the Combat section (How Combat Works -> Special Attacks -> Throw Splash Weapon):You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5.
Ruyan.
He doesn't know 35 feet.
he knows his fireball can go X far from him. He knows he wants it to be X-Y from him.
He points.
he shoots.
HE SCORES!
The wizard doesn't have to measure it in feet. Feet are something we are using so we can measure it. The wizard just knows he wants it right -there-. It just happens that -there- is 35 feet away.
Imagine someone hanging a tire from a tree. You have a ball in your hand.
Do you need to know the distance to make the shot? Nope. You just have to know how to throw the ball. All measuering it does is allow someone else to stand where you stood and make the same shot. (or further back, or closer up, etc.).
Much in the same way that an archer doesn't need to know the exact distance to chuck the arrow. He just eyeballs it, adjusts accordingly, and fires.
:)
-S
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For the longest time the casters in my group (myself included) have taken for granted the fact that when the Wizard wants to cast the 60ft diameter Fireball but doesn't want to hit our Fighter he just centers the spell exactly 35ft from him. Up until recently that was never an issue in my mind but I started thinking about it and how does someone, in the heat of combat mind you, know what is exactly 35ft? Are all adventurers born-to-be contractors and construction workers? My question is that is there some rule we have overlooked that addresses this and if not does anyone have suggestions for a house-rule that could make this less ridiculous.
While you're looking up rules, you may want to brush up on the radius/diameter of a fireball.
how does someone, in the heat of combat mind you, know what is exactly 35ft?
The same way an expert marksman knows how many millimeters wide the bulls-eye is. In other words, nobody's saying he does- he just knows his abilities, and his medium, well enough to know where to aim it. If you practiced throwing grenades for years, you'd have a good enough idea of how big their radius is, and I'd argue that you'd be good enough at using them to know how far to throw them to effectively use them around your teammates.
And that's even assuming magic is something as mechanical as a manufactured grenade- one could argue that such a force is as much a part of you as your own hand, making it more akin to aiming a high-five (a super-destructive and far-reaching high five) than throwing a grenade. Either the fireball's being cast by a Wizard, who's studied the formula and trajectory and mechanics for decades, or it's being cast by a Sorcerer, who creates the fireball from a piece of his own essence. In either case, they're going to know what they're doing.
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It is going to have weird situations when targets are inside the squares and targetting is done on the grid lines. It wound have been better with emanations from a square, like a fireball targets a square then emanates 4 squares out, making a circle as best a square grid can. It would net 1 extra square area, but would be more indicative of launching a spell at someone's dome.
example:
----x----
---xxx---
--xxxxx--
-xxxxxxx-
xxxxOxxxx
-xxxxxxx-
--xxxxx--
---xxx---
----x----
yeah it looks bad when you try to do it on a message board
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It is going to have weird situations when targets are inside the squares and targetting is done on the grid lines. It wound have been better with emanations from a square, like a fireball targets a square then emanates out, making a circle as best a square grid can
AOE spells have always centered on grid intersections. It gets really weird when you try it with squares.
I know, it's houserule territory, but in my group, some GMs have ruled that you'd have to make a perception or intelligence check in cases where accurate placement of the spell seemed to be difficult.
Ranged attack vs AC 5 is also not a bad idea... As it is a ranged attack, it also automatically simulates that it could become difficult to pinpoint the exact target location when people are in the way (soft cover, ac +4).
I had a GM pull this on our table in PFS too (accurately estimating distance by eye). We had a wizard with see invisibility on. I delayed until after the wizards turn and the wizard then told me which square the invisible enemy was in. The GM ruled that there was no way for the wizard to accurately describe what square they where in because they could not determine distances by eye. It's a total crock of BS but sometimes you have to roll with it. At best it was a homerule and had no business in a PFS game. At worst it was a specific attempt to prevent us from doing anything useful.
One of the things that I have to sort of smile at during game play is the agonizing analysis of the exact location to place area of effect spells by players who seem to think that their spellcasters are GPS devices on steroids. (Heh, talk about mixing metaphors.....)
I play my spellcasters as if they are actually in the heat of battle and doing their best to target things, but on occasion they sort of misjudge.
It's one of those "verisimilitude" things. Split second to decide... do the best you can, hope for the best.
Plus as a major bonus, it makes the game go faster.
Much, much faster.
Way faster.
Like, totally faster.
Explain the concept to modern tank commander who is about to put a shell on hostile target. He will tell you that it is a risk he must take and he can only do so much to ensure it is as safe action as possible where his allies are concerned.
Personally any Area of Effect spell/ability used in my game must be accompanied by Wisdom/Concentration check, the higher the check the greater the chance of landing the center of the effect in/at a desired coordinates.
Past that all you need to do is demonstrate that same rules apply to "bad guys" and I believe you have just added some realism to your fantasy game. It's not everyone's cup of tea but it works for my group :)
Remember: friendly fire isn't...
I find it equally cheezy and annoying, but the rules are the rules.
Pinpoint accuracy - 'its just magic!'
There was a suggestion on these boards a while back that the caster could select the square, then they rolled a d4 to determine which corner was the centre.
That seemed a quick and easy fix and resulted in the wizard having to choose whether to 'play it safe' or 'take risks' whilst also modelling, to some degree, the possibility of underestimating the burst radius in the heat of the battle.
Why do wizards never miss with their fireballs? Because they generally have 20+ intelligence. Eyeballing distances with a degree of accuracy is second nature to them.
Then they should have to take Knowledge:Engineering or something to be so good with measures and distance. Similarly a perception check to spot where that exact space is, in the dark 200+ feet away, past the frnt line of a melee...etc etc... you get the drift.
Also OP it might be worth remembering that the wizard can't shoot the fireball through a melee, so in order to get it where he wants hes going to have to be off on an oblique.
Fireballs explode on contact, so if the spaces between him and his target are filled then its going to go bang.
He can aim it 'high' as an airburst, but then hes losing a bit part of the effect into the air.
Then they should have to take Knowledge:Engineering or something to be so good with measures and distance. Similarly a perception check to spot where that exact space is, in the dark 200+ feet away, past the frnt line of a melee...etc etc... you get the drift.
Do you require archers to take Knowledge skills in order to be able to shoot accurately? I see no difference between aiming a fireball to a specific 5-foot square and aiming an arrow at a creature that occupies a 5-foot square.
Also OP it might be worth remembering that the wizard can't shoot the fireball through a melee, so in order to get it where he wants hes going to have to be off on an oblique.
Fireballs explode on contact, so if the spaces between him and his target are filled then its going to go bang.
If you're following the rules in the Fireball description, then you are correct. But if you're simply saying, "There's a Fighter in your way. It detonates early." then you are incorrect.
Relevant information:
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
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I see no difference between aiming a fireball to a specific 5-foot square and aiming an arrow at a creature that occupies a 5-foot square.
Difference is the archer has to make an attack roll which scales with target's size, armor type, dexterity distance and what-not - exactly what the OP is looking for as equivalent for a spellcaster aiming a spell.
Why do wizards never miss with their fireballs? Because they generally have 20+ intelligence. Eyeballing distances with a degree of accuracy is second nature to them.
Except it would be keyed to perception, which is tied to Wisdom in game mechanics.
Ruyan.
Long time baseball pitcher here, even played in the minor leagues.
I am so skilled throwing a ball, I can hit a spot in my "range" 99% of the time, and when I miss it is only by a couple of inches.
In theory I am trying to hit a strikezone, which for arguments sake is 3' x 3' and 3' of the ground. I can hit that whenever I want to. Now granted as I pitcher I am not always throwing it into the strikezone but seriously, if you put me on a mound right now and just tell me to throw a strike (one fireball), I will hit the area you want me to hit guaranteed.
Do you require archers to take Knowledge skills in order to be able to shoot accurately? I see no difference between aiming a fireball to a specific 5-foot square and aiming an arrow at a creature that occupies a 5-foot square.
As the poster above has beat me to the punch and nicely explained 'they already do' by virtue of a to hit roll which is affected by a range of factors - none of which apparently apply to the wizard.
If you're following the rules in the Fireball description, then you are correct. But if you're simply saying, "There's a Fighter in your way. It detonates early." then you are incorrect.
No I'd be more concerned with a couple of squares being occupied - ie a melee, or as in the last game, "no you cant fire through the Huge Treant"
how does someone, in the heat of combat mind you, know what is exactly 35ft?
Lots of practice at Wizard School.
Why do wizards never miss with their fireballs? Because they generally have 20+ intelligence. Eyeballing distances with a degree of accuracy is second nature to them.
This suddenly makes the idea of a fireball shooting sorcerer seem a bit more frightening to me. They aren't going to measure those distances properly with their force of personality and good looks ;)
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It's magic.
Really. That's not a copout. That's the actual answer.
Reynard nailed it:
It seems to me that any spellcaster must hold the effects of his spell in his mind before casting it, envisioning the spell and warping reality to make it real. As long as he doesn't envision a fighter s'more, it should not come to pass.
When I GM, for purposes of speeding game play, I allow spellcasters to simply pick the corner where they want the burst or emanation to originate-- with a catch.
I give them sixty real-world seconds to decide. (I use a one-minute egg timer.)
If they haven't picked the target corner by the time the alarm goes off, *I* decide where it's centered-- although I do always place it near where the player was considering.
This means that throwing a fireball into melee may very well end up singeing one or more friendlies.
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If we're going to be making wizards roll to get their fireballs off then I also call for making everyone else roll to make sure they grip the right end of their weapons, that archers don't shoot their bows (or arrows) backwards, that they remember to take the scabbards off their weapons first.
Yanno, all the stuff we assume they know how to do by virtue of it being /what they do/
The Wizards know what they are doing. Its what they are trained to do.
When they choose to drop a fire ball right -there- then it goes right -there- because thats what they cast the spell to do.
It doesn't scoot 5 feet to the left, the wind doesnt' blow it off course, it doesn't wiggle up and to the right. Why? Because the wizard /is a wizard/ and the spell does what the spell says that it does.
Just like when the fighter draws his sword there's no roll to make sure he didn't grab the sharp end. Or draw the whole scabbard. or that the Barbarian didn't grab a javelin instead of the hilt of his great axe. Or that the archer isn't trying to shoot the arrow backwards. Or that he strung the bow correctly.
Evocation spells already do crappy damage unless you super-specialize in them and even *then* there are plentiful resistances in the game as well as a die roll to halve (and sometimes eliminate) the damage.
There is absolutely no reason to introduce a rule to make them even crappier to use.
If you are going to add silly rolls for the guys with the AOE's (wizards, clerics, sorcs, witches, oracles, whoever else) then make sure you add silly rolls for everyone else. Lets see how many extra die we can scramble on the table, shall we?
-S
And when you miss, it's because you're tired, or got your finger slightly off, or it just didn't "feel right", I assume, not because you forgot to envision where you wanted the ball to go.Long time baseball pitcher here, even played in the minor leagues.
I am so skilled throwing a ball, I can hit a spot in my "range" 99% of the time, and when I miss it is only by a couple of inches.
In theory I am trying to hit a strikezone, which for arguments sake is 3' x 3' and 3' of the ground. I can hit that whenever I want to. Now granted as I pitcher I am not always throwing it into the strikezone but seriously, if you put me on a mound right now and just tell me to throw a strike (one fireball), I will hit the area you want me to hit guaranteed.
Sure a lot things can effect especially after throwing 70+ pitches, Injury, weather conditions, etc.
But even when missing the "strikezone" I am usually not missing by much, many times inches (Again talking about a straight 2 seam fastball, getting into curves and such, is much different).
The wizard on the other hand isn't throwing he is aiming with a gesture. My point is that someone with high skills can hit that 5' square pretty much automatically
And let's not forget, people, that Fireball is hardly the only spell that's a ranged Burst- and Fireball is unique in that it actually coms from you and travels to its destination. (All other burst spells simply go off at their destination, regardless of obstacles between you and the target destination.)
Seriously, people, it's magic. As Selgard says, if you're going for realism, you might as well make EVERY player roll dice for pretty much everything they do. What is added to the game by arbitrarily enforcing the wizard make a roll to position his spells?
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I had a GM pull this on our table in PFS too (accurately estimating distance by eye). We had a wizard with see invisibility on. I delayed until after the wizards turn and the wizard then told me which square the invisible enemy was in. The GM ruled that there was no way for the wizard to accurately describe what square they where in because they could not determine distances by eye. It's a total crock of BS but sometimes you have to roll with it. At best it was a homerule and had no business in a PFS game. At worst it was a specific attempt to prevent us from doing anything useful.That's not unreasonable, IMO. unless the party was in a chessboard trap room, or a checkered-floor cathedral or something, how would they quickly verbally describe?
If the guy who can see invisible is talking the whole time that the other guy is walking, it should be doable to get him aiming at the right 5 foot square. ie "He's to your left, go about 10 or 15 feet. Stop! Turn to the right a little. Now swing your sword in front of you!" From what I've seen, it's usually assumed that one person seeing the invis guy can point the others in the right general direction that way, without having to role play the whole thing out.
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Hell, just "10 o'clock! 15 feet!" should be enough to know at least the square the invisible guy is in.
BTW, an archer's to-hit isn't just to hit the right square, it's to actually deal damage - that means hitting the chinks in the armor of a moving target. It's usually AC 5 to hit a particular square with an effect - any archer could hit that 100% of the time. Plus, MAGIC.
Why do wizards never miss with their fireballs? Because they generally have 20+ intelligence. Eyeballing distances with a degree of accuracy is second nature to them.
RD, where do you get the notion that being able to estimate distances with precision is an intelligence based skill? First of all, in game terms, if anything it would be wisdom based since the closest possible skill for this is "perception." Second, I play golf, and I can promise you that intelligence and ability to estimate distance accurately have absolutely no correlation whatsoever.
And when you miss, it's because you're tired, or got your finger slightly off, or it just didn't "feel right", I assume, not because you forgot to envision where you wanted the ball to go.
Sure a lot things can effect especially after throwing 70+ pitches, Injury, weather conditions, etc.
But even when missing the "strikezone" I am usually not missing by much, many times inches (Again talking about a straight 2 seam fastball, getting into curves and such, is much different).
The wizard on the other hand isn't throwing he is aiming with a gesture. My point is that someone with high skills can hit that 5' square pretty much automatically
Sure, I was intending to reinforce your point...the reasons you "missed" (and the wizard doesn't have the convenience of always throwing the same distance, through unobstructed space ;)) were mostly not applicable to why a wizard might miss.
I think more of the potential issue for wizards is PICKING the spot behind the bad guys that hits them but not the fighter engaged, rather than HITTING the spot once picked.
Another baseball reference. I can throw the ball to a fielder over the head of a runner on the basepaths in the way of the ball and still hit that area I want to hit (His torso for example of the person receiving the pass). This is a high speed throw, and I am even moving.