Bard (Arcane Duelist)
Traits: Armor Expert -1 armor pen; Magical Knack +2casterLvl for Dips;
Bard 1 Finesse
Bard 2 Combat casting (arcane duelist)
Bard 3 Dervish Dancer
Bard 5 Craft Wonderous Items
Dip1: Wiz1 Forsight (Scribe Scroll)
Dip2: Monk (saves+feat) or Fighter (feat+bab) Ranger (Fav Enemy+Wild Empathy+bab) or sorc crossblooded fey/elemental laughing touch, elemental energy resist +10
--lvl7 feat: mobility / (ftr or monk: bonus feat dodge)
Bard 6 Disruptive (arcane duelist) / Bladethirst (arcane duelist)
Bard 7 Spring Attack or mobility
Bard 9 Lunge
Bard 10 Spellbreaker (arcane duelist)
Bard 11 Spring attack (non ftr monk dip)
I think this could be lots of fun.
The dips could give me a ton of useful tool spells (cantrips + lvl1). Forsight is crazy useful - laughing touch maybe great even at high levels (no save) and resist energy is very nice to have. Using Magical Knack the 2 dips would come without CL loss for the main bard - slowing spell progression though.
In sum: tons of options (skills, spells (2-3x cantrips, 2-3x lvl1 spells, bloodline power, bardic performance, some fighting)
What do you guys think?
Edit: just noticed dervish dancer cant go with rapier - so i would need an early ftr or ranger dip for scimitar proficiency - guess i have to chose either sorc or wiz dip then :/
Edit2: Using Robe of arcane heritage for 3rd and 5th lvl bloodline power
Cheers
Every dip into a non-full BAB class costs you 1 BAB unless you take a full four levels. This is really bad for an Arcane Duelist.
You won't be able to cast your wizard spells in armor, and Arcane Duelist gets to cast in light armor from the start and eventually heavy armor. I'd skip wizard.
Dipping two levels of monk for the feats can be worth it if you have a plan for those bonus feats, which probably means Master of Many Styles or Maneuver Master, but if you don't it's probably not worth one level just for the saves.
One or two levels of fighter can potentially be worth it for the bonus feats.
One level of ranger is absolutely not worth it. Two could be if you have something critical planned for that bonus feat like Power Attack when you skimped on strength.
Sorceror is probably not worth it. Arcane Duelist doesn't lend itself to casting bards and none of the arcana are really going to help you enough to offset what you lose leaving Bard.
IMO you're a front line archetype without enough bonus feats to go for item creation. You need to worry about combat feats and bardic feats.
I think you need to pick one or two things to focus on or you'll be disappointed. Either dip martial or don't dip. Martial stuff stacks, casting doesn't.
Don't go for spring attack unless you can do something interesting with it.
As a level 13 character, prancing around and making a single attack for what, 1d6+15?, is going to be incredibly lame.
Don't dip so much. Every dip delays your own class feature progression. The bard also gets some really good buff spells, and advancing performance is also very useful. I would dip 1 or 2 levels at most, and usually only if I was feat-starved. I would also consider an Oracle lvl if I was a high-Cha, low-Dex bard, but it seems you're dex-based, so it's not as useful.
In any case, I would get to Bard 7 before starting to multiclass. Perform as a move action really cuts down on the buffing time at the start of combat, and third level spells means access to some of the greatest buffs. Open every fight with Haste+Inspire Courage, and everyone will love you (including yourself).
What level are you starting at? +1 to needing Bard-7 ASAP, no non+essential dipping before that. If you're starting at high enough level the order doesn't matter so much, though.
For an arcane duelist dervish, I would suggest a fighter dip at lvl 2 (probably lore warden) to get your dervish dance with no delay could be essential, though.
However, is your character idea a devotee of Sarenrae? If that's not a core concept, then why not skip the dervish dance, use a rapier, and shop for an Agile rapier ASAP instead?
Cult of Vorg wrote: What level are you starting at? +1 to needing Bard-7 ASAP, no non+essential dipping before that. If you're starting at high enough level the order doesn't matter so much, though.
For an arcane duelist dervish, I would suggest a fighter dip at lvl 2 (probably lore warden) to get your dervish dance with no delay could be essential, though.
However, is your character idea a devotee of Sarenrae? If that's not a core concept, then why not skip the dervish dance, use a rapier, and shop for an Agile rapier ASAP instead?
Agile rapier is a great idea, man!
Didnt know about that one - that is crazy cheap compared to the feat! And it allows to not take the fighter dip for scimitar proficiency and feat. :)
We are lvl4 right now and the GM suggested backup chars... but i am generally cool with having 2lvls before dervish kicks in.
-- I also agree on spring attack being pricy, so i might just go for lunge and save quite some feats.
-- I am still liking the lvl1 sorc + lvl1 wiz dips for the cool bloodline/school abilities. Yes I ll delay my bard stuff, but I am ok with losing some power for crazy versatility.
* Touch of laughter is super nice debuff to spam
* Forsight is just awesome all around (i think this outweights the bab-loss)
-- Spell failure could be very low as I ll stick with light mithral armor - no big issue for lvl1 tool spells
I rolled very nice stats which also helps dipping for fun - the bab loss doesnt hurt so bad (we play +1ability point per lvl); halfling:
Str: 11-2
Dex: 17+2 – lvl4 18+2
Con: 14
Int: 13 - lvl6 14
Wis: 9
Cha: 15+2 - lvl9 16+2
Why don´t you take a reach weapon?
Arcane strike with weapon focus and Spear dancer makes a pretty good combo.
Then either go dodge-mobility-spring attack or lunge-monkey lunge.
Also bardic feats like lingering performance and others are probably the best choice for any bard, making use of your abilities.
If you want to be more combat oriented, 2 lvl dip fighter is best.
Other dips i would only do for concepts and PrC you know will work out.
Like making use of the moonlight stalker feat chain with 1 level oracle of waves and water sight mystery, 2 levels fighter for more feats and rest bard. For example. Of course sticking with oracle then would technically be better.
Arcane duelists are specifically made to fight casters.
A nice thing is then the net and net and trident feats, so you can really take out casters.
Or try some performance feats, giving you bonuses and your allies too, debuffing foes for free.
Update:
Bard (Arcane Duelist)
Traits: Armor Expert -1 armor pen; Magical Knack +2casterLvl for Dips;
Bard 1 Finesse
Bard 2 Combat casting (arcane duelist)
Bard 3 open feat (shop agile rapier)- lingering performance
Bard 5 open feat - craft wonderous item
Bard 6 Disruptive (arcane duelist) / Bladethirst (arcane duelist)
Bard 7 open feat - step up
Dip1: Wiz1 Forsight (Scribe Scroll)
Dip2: Sorc1 fey laughing touch / arcane armor training
Bard 9 Lunge
Bard 10 Spellbreaker (arcane duelist)
I got so many free feats now (skipping spring at and dervish) - ideas?
- step up to help the theme of caster killing
- what best to improve performance? (lingering)
Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus Rapier, Great Fortitude. If you take Step Up, you could go Step Up & Strike (3 feats altogether).
I also second non-dipping. At level 11 Inspire Courage gives +3 on attacks, damage and certain saves. Your character will become less optimized if you dip. The only thing I could understand is taking two or three levels of paladin, after level 11 (from an optimizer's point of view) if you are LG and it fits thematically.
Turgan wrote: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus Rapier, Great Fortitude. If you take Step Up, you could go Step Up & Strike (3 feats altogether).
I also second non-dipping. At level 11 Inspire Courage gives +3 on attacks, damage and certain saves. Your character will become less optimized if you dip. The only thing I could understand is taking two or three levels of paladin, after level 11 (from an optimizer's point of view) if you are LG and it fits thematically.
Yeah - the dippin isnt optimal, but I am cool with it. I like to take the good stats for some fun tool-dips.
Both caster dips might be a bit overdoing it, but well - just fancy those powers.
And I cant think of many situations this build would not have something useful/fun to do - which i like.
Touch of laughter (deny casting for 1 rd - no save) seems to fit in well with step up (cant get away that round) and the theme of killing casters.
-- I actually think of taking the sorc dip at lvl 6 - although delaying lvl6/7 bard hurts
Thx for all the contributions - the thought of losing my loved Magus is no longer as daunting :)
Hayato Ken wrote: Why don´t you take a reach weapon?
Arcane strike with weapon focus and Spear dancer makes a pretty good combo.
Then either go dodge-mobility-spring attack or lunge-monkey lunge.
Are you joking? Taking a feat to make my enemies f@%#ing DAZZLED? Are you smoking from the same stash as the people who write these feats?
Also, Monkey Lunge? I assume you play with houserules and forgot to mention them, but have you seen how stone-cold terrible that feat is?
Quick question:
Any downfall of using a shield with this build?
I didnt think of it - as its impossible for magi (which i play right now) - but seems legit for a bard, right?
Just thought of it as the arcane bond of arcane duelist mentions the sword hand maybe used to cast.
Darkwood heavy shield is good for you. With finesse you just need to make sure there's no ACP on your shield.
Touch of laughter got errata'd to be mind-affecting, fyi. No save 1 round is good, but don't know if it's dip-worthy, especially now that you can't make spiders laugh. It's all about what's fun for you though, obviously. Just remember action economy, it doesn't matter how many tricks you have if you never get to use most of them.
If your GM allows for crafting magic items, its a solid choice, saving you a lot of gold and giving you better equipment.
Else don´t take it.
The wizard level is a mechanically poor choice, because the caster levels don´t stack and attributes are different. Also wizards have low BAB and saves. You win only the feat, school specializiations wont be of any use to you.
Scribe scroll could just be a normal feat if you really want it.
Crafting wands is probably better then, because of cost/use ratio and UMD DC´s, but you need caster level 5.
Note that you don´t need to know the spells for the wands you are casting, you can just heighten the DC by 5, but thats another discussion.
Ways to caster killing:
-make their checks higher with things like debuffs, dazzling display etc
-use threatening weapons and get close to them, forcing them to make concentration checks and making use of disruptive and spellbreaker. That´s why i recommended a reach weapon, some spear, polearm, net or whip.
-Disarming spell focus or bonded objects is a good tactic.
Combat reflexes then becomes a solid choice too, as well as combat patrol, to heighten the threatend area and take more AoO´s.
As said, dazzling display, dramatic display and heroes display are a nice combination. performind Combatant and Master combat performer suit that very well too.
Dirty trick is good versus casters to deafen them, giving 20% more spell failure chance and debuffing. You also can apply other dirty trick conditions, stacking debuffs on ability checks.
Rasmus Wagner wrote: Hayato Ken wrote: Why don´t you take a reach weapon?
Arcane strike with weapon focus and Spear dancer makes a pretty good combo.
Then either go dodge-mobility-spring attack or lunge-monkey lunge.
Are you joking? Taking a feat to make my enemies f~%~ing DAZZLED? Are you smoking from the same stash as the people who write these feats?
Also, Monkey Lunge? I assume you play with houserules and forgot to mention them, but have you seen how stone-cold terrible that feat is? FYI: i don´t smoke.
Dazzling Display with combat performance feats and spear dancer can make for a -3 debuff in one round, add in dirty trick and you can be at a -5, for free, every round.
Also, Monkey Lunge, can make a big different to have 2AC points more or not.
Hayato Ken wrote:
FYI: i don´t smoke.
Also, Monkey Lunge, can make a big different to have 2AC points more or not.
Did you even re-read Monkey Lunge to see what I was talking about? Go on. Please tell me how you'd use Monkey Lunge AS WRITTEN more than, say, once in an entire campaign (other than "level 16 Monk of the Four Winds")
Feat text, for your convenience
I wouldn't dip at all. Also if you're positioning properly you shouldn't need your AC as much, since with lunge your two handed reach weapon is 15'. Monkey lunge resolves an issue with a feat which you could resolve with better positioning. On my arcane duelist I ended up with
1) Master Performer, Extra Performance
3) Power Attack
5) Harmonic Spell
7) Leadership (let the companion craft)
9) Grandmaster performer
Straight bard, wouldn't change a thing. I have a transformative trait proficient weapon which I toggle back and forth between a bastard sword and a whip. I typically start off combat with haste, good hope and a song, followed the next round with either more support casting or moving into whip range. The only time I get up into melee is if I know the badguy wont live to see another round of combat.
If you want something else to do with your weapon than just attack, you could snag a Fauchard and use it to trip. It has reach, the trip property, and with combat reflexes, you could make a lot of trip attempts every combat.
It just sort of gets feat intensive, as you might want the trip feats and agile maneuvers to get yourself going - but prone is a good debuff if you can land it.
Third, fourth or fifth the no dipping with bard levels, except for fighter.
If you want the cool uses of the sorcerer bloodline abilities, just use the Eldritch Heritage feats. Skill Focus: Knowledge nature, then EH for the laughing touch.
Maybe get this feat if your DM allows it?
Improved Arcane Bond
One thing I can say is the whip combined with a wand of true strike make for an excellent guaranteed trip combination.
Lastoth wrote: One thing I can say is the whip combined with a wand of true strike make for an excellent guaranteed trip combination. I disagree with this combo for a bard. Two rounds for a trip is not good at all for a bard. For the full casters with 1/2 bab it is a decent option, even for them it isn't that good, but for a 3/4 bab class with nice to hit buffs, why would you want to waste two rounds for a trip when you can be spending the two rounds ripping them a new one. Hell or just attempt trip twice.
Gignere wrote: Third, fourth or fifth the no dipping with bard levels, except for fighter.
If you want the cool uses of the sorcerer bloodline abilities, just use the Eldritch Heritage feats. Skill Focus: Knowledge nature, then EH for the laughing touch.
Interesting feat - did not have this on the radar.
That seems a good way to get that laughing touch.
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