One of our PC's was killed today by a witches forced reincarnate hex. He failed his save and died. The debate came up over if he is forced to accept the reincarnate or not. Based on the reading of the hex I would say no since it says he is brought back to life "with" reincarnate. In this case with meaning "by the use of" per dictionary.com
Other PC's said he didn't have a choice because the hex specifically says "you are brought back to life"
I understand the intent of the hex but purely on reading I would say the creature still gets a choice and that the hex functions as reincarnate in all respects other than the changed casting time.
Any thoughts?
I think the fact that it says "Forced Reincarnate" says everything you need to know about it. If you fail your saved, you're "forced" to be reincarnated.
The PRD wrote: Forced Reincarnation (Su): The witch causes a creature within 30 feet to die and be immediately reincarnated into a new body. A Will save negates this effect. Those that fail are slain and immediately brought back to life with the spell reincarnate. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day. According to the description of the hex, the Will save is to avoid dying and being reincarnated. So if the save fails, then both happen. If the save is made, then nothing happens. There's no half-way with this ability. Hence, as Martiln said, the "forced" part of the name.
Shadowborn wrote: The PRD wrote: Forced Reincarnation (Su): The witch causes a creature within 30 feet to die and be immediately reincarnated into a new body. A Will save negates this effect. Those that fail are slain and immediately brought back to life with the spell reincarnate. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day. According to the description of the hex, the Will save is to avoid dying and being reincarnated. So if the save fails, then both happen. If the save is made, then nothing happens. There's no half-way with this ability. Hence, as Martiln said, the "forced" part of the name. That logic I can get behind as I said I realize the intention of the ability and with the save being for both the death and reincarnate I follow you on that . I think we were focusing using to much on the 3rd sentence.
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janemba wrote: One of our PC's was killed today by a witches forced reincarnate hex. He failed his save and died. The debate came up over if he is forced to accept the reincarnate or not. I have taken the liberty of bolding some of your words in the hopes that this sheds some light on the situation.
pathar wrote: janemba wrote: One of our PC's was killed today by a witches forced reincarnate hex. He failed his save and died. The debate came up over if he is forced to accept the reincarnate or not. I have taken the liberty of bolding some of your words in the hopes that this sheds some light on the situation. Thanks for that as I said in the original post I wasnt debating the intent of the hex I was debating how it was actually worded.
I don't know honestly.
It says "with the spell reincarnate" and reincarnate is quite clear on the point that if the target is not willing to return then the spell fails.
janemba wrote: Thanks for that as I said in the original post I wasnt debating the intent of the hex I was debating how it was actually worded. Okay, if you want to quibble over wording, let's consider the wording. "Those that fail are slain and immediately brought back to life with the spell reincarnate." It doesn't say "after death, character is targeted by Reincarnate," which implies wiggle room on the returning to life bit. It says "immediately brought back to life with the spell reincarnate," meaning that the first half of the operation, to wit, whether or not they actually come back to life, is already handled, and the only thing left is to consult the spell description to determine what they come back as. So I don't see the concern in the wording that you see.
... and you're still asking if "forced reincarnate" forces people to reincarnate.
pathar wrote: janemba wrote: Thanks for that as I said in the original post I wasnt debating the intent of the hex I was debating how it was actually worded. Okay, if you want to quibble over wording, let's consider the wording. "Those that fail are slain and immediately brought back to life with the spell reincarnate." It doesn't say "after death, character is targeted by Reincarnate," which implies wiggle room on the returning to life bit. It says "immediately brought back to life with the spell reincarnate," meaning that the first half of the operation, to wit, whether or not they actually come back to life, is already handled, and the only thing left is to consult the spell description to determine what they come back as. So I don't see the concern in the wording that you see.
... and you're still asking if "forced reincarnate" forces people to reincarnate. Yes I understood that when I asked , shadowborns answer was great and makes perfect sense. Thanks for your input
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
I would assume that your new NAKED body should take 1 HOUR to form within 30 feet of your old EQUIPPED body too.
Yes I guess the RAI behind this hex is to force it.
It sits a bit bad with me though that every resurrection spell makes a huge deal out of unwilling creatures not even needing a save and just flat out make it fail, and this one breaks that pattern. However you can't actually cast it on a corpse, you have to first kill the target yourself in the same action, so guess it works.
I wonder though... if after you reincarnated, which takes an hour, and hopefully your party has killed the witch by now you don't like your new body, take your sword and kill yourself and then have your cleric raise your ORIGINAL body. Would your soul go back in it, or is the new body the only one that can be raised?
Quatar wrote: Yes I guess the RAI behind this hex is to force it.
It sits a bit bad with me though that every resurrection spell makes a huge deal out of unwilling creatures not even needing a save and just flat out make it fail, and this one breaks that pattern. However you can't actually cast it on a corpse, you have to first kill the target yourself in the same action, so guess it works.
I wonder though... if after you reincarnated, which takes an hour, and hopefully your party has killed the witch by now you don't like your new body, take your sword and kill yourself and then have your cleric raise your ORIGINAL body. Would your soul go back in it, or is the new body the only one that can be raised?
I believe there was another thread about when the body comes back and it was determined to be immediate .
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
janemba wrote: I believe there was another thread about when the body comes back and it was determined to be immediate . Do you remember where?
Instantaneous reincarnation would be much more fun.
Quatar wrote: I don't know honestly.
It says "with the spell reincarnate" and reincarnate is quite clear on the point that if the target is not willing to return then the spell fails.
To answer this question, I direct you to the rule of Specific vs. General.
Whenever there is a conflict in the rules, Specific always trumps general. The general rule for "Reincarnate" is that the spell fails if targeted on an unwilling creature (as per the spell description).
The "Forced Reincarnate" ability of the witch is a more specific rule, as it modifies the way in which the spell "Reincarnate" functions.
Therefore, willingness does not enter into the equation, as the Witches hex trumps any willingness on the targets part.
Hope this helps
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