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I'm bored and I didn't find anyone who's done this already, so I'm going to do it and then you guys get to tell me how I'm wrong. It'll be a learning experience for us all.
A lot of people call the Skirmisher the "Warrior of the Holy Light" of the Ranger class. I'm not sure where that comes from other than they're both alternatives to casting. I'm sure a lot of people are attracted to this Archetype because none of its abilities rely on your Wisdom Modifier for saving throws, not to mention you don't suffer a -3 caster level penalty for any of these. They're all straight up bonuses and some of them pretty good. It sort of takes a little of the edge off of the Ranger's stat allotment. You could easily take a lower than normal Wisdom by going with this Archetype. This also means that you'll have fewer daily tricks, however. With that in mind I'm going to be rating some of these based on whether they're even worth using the likely 3-4 Hunter's Tricks the Ranger has in a day.
I don't think you can do colors on this forum so I'm just going to rate these out of 4 stars.
Aiding Attack : (**) This is a solid bonus that can give the same attack bonus flank gives to an ally without having to flank the target. I'm not sure if this is worth a use of your precious daily allotment though. If you have a rogue buddy you like to flank with, or a TWF friend of another class, make this 4 stars and take it. You could exponentially increase your party damage in that circumstance.
Bolster Companion : (**)This would be fantastic if it weren't just your Animal companion. That said, it's still super solid. Your Animal Companion isn't likely to have a ton of HP at any given time, and any hit to your companion is an action that could have been spent hitting someone more important. This gives you the opportunity to use your flanking buddy as a tank, if your GM ever attacks the animal that is.
Catfall : (*) This is okay. It's only because it's so circumstantial that I give it such a low rating. If you see yourself jumping off a lot of 20' cliffs, then by all means pick this up.
Chameleon Step : (***) I like this one a lot. Moving twice your speed as a move action is something that when you need it, you NEED it. This will help you get into position a lot better, and it makes a great companion to Spring Attack or Shot on the Run.
Cunning Pantomime : (*) Eh... this really depends on your GM. Most of my GMs don't make language a big deal, but mechanically I could see some GMs totally being a stickler for it. There are times when it's important to be able to communicate with another party. That said you're probably not the party face, and this doesn't help you in that role at all. Leave this to another party member.
Defensive Bow Stance : (*) For a round, don't provoke attacks of opportunity while shooting. I can't think of too many situations where this going to make a huge difference. Most times you can just 5-foot step. For situations like when the enemy has Step-up, you should probably take one of the many feats that aids in this situation. There's another trick below called Surprising Shift that completely outclasses this trick too. In many cases just taking the attack of opportunity is still not going to kill you either.
Deft Stand : (*) Ranger's Ki Stand. My GM doesn't usually bother knocking people prone (Or at least, it's very rare when he does), so I'd never take this, but it's not completely useless.
Distracting Attack : (**) This is kind of like Aiding Attack, but doesn't have a controllable circumstance that could make it better. Against enemies that have a lot of attacks though it'd be worth using.
Hateful Attack : (**) Lunge without the penalties. The only reason this isn't 3 stars is because the target has to be a Favored enemy to trigger it.
Heel : (*) Get your animal companion out of a bad situation. I'd almost rather take Bolster Companion and leave him in the bad situation and walk in for a flank.
Hobbling Attack : (****) While it only lasts a fraction of the time, this is like Crippling Critical without a saving throw and without the need to crit. The best part? You use it AFTER you hit - no wasting daily uses for it. Halving an enemy's speed isn't the BEST form of control, but it could save your Wizard's bacon if he did something to tick off your target.
Quick Climb : (*) This ability's usefulness is more circumstantial than the climb skill itself.
Quick Healing : (*) I've read some guides that give abilities like this 4 stars all over the place, as if they're always finding themselves in near-death situations. I don't think the need to heal super fast comes up (and it SHOULDN'T come up) so often to make this a primary pick. However, I'm willing to bet you'll be glad you have this ability if the circumstance ever does come up.
Quick Swim : (*) Um... maybe if you're playing in an aquatic campaign, then I'm sure this is worth 3 stars. As it stands this is worse than quick climb for being circumstantial.
Ranger’s Counsel : (*) This is Aid Another at a range. Do you ever need to use Aid Another at a range? I don't really see when this would be helpful. I suppose this would stack with Aid Another, and it affects all nearby allies. Besides Perception though I'm not sure how the AOE effect would really help, and I can't think of too many situations where an extra +2 for a single round would make a huge difference.
Rattling Strike : (***) Not as good as Hobbling Strike since it must be declared before the attack, but it still doesn't allow a saving throw, and I happen to like Shaken as a condition. (I also normally play casters who LOVE the penalty to saving throws.) Since you probably dumped Charisma you can pretend you're intimidating people with this ability.
Second Chance Strike : (*) Eh... So if you miss an attack you can try again with a -5 penalty? I'm not even sure if this is worth the immediate action much less the daily use of trick. If you're playing a Ranger who attacks with standard actions I could see this not totally sucking, especially if you're using Vital Strike. In a lot of cases though you're probably not going to get much success from this.
Sic 'Em : (*) Trade a swift action (and a daily trick) for an extra attack from your Animal Companion. This would be awesome if the Ranger's Animal Companion actually did any substantial damage. But you might get super lucky and pull off a trip attack with your wolf, so not a total waste. Give this a star or two if you're really into optimizing your animal companion, and if you're in the habit of getting buffs and enhancements for him. Since you gave up casting for this archetype though, someone else needs to cast Magic Fang for you. You COULD give your Animal Companion the Teamwork Feat Precise Strike and take it yourself. You COULD also optimize for Critical Strike and take Outflank with your Flanking Buddy and not spend Hunter's Tricks for the same effect too.
Skill Sage : (**) The only reason I'm not rating this a little higher is because you have to decide before you use the skill. I think someone said that a "take the higher roll" reroll is like a +3.5 to your skill. Unless you're doing something that HAS to succeed, like diffusing a bomb, I doubt you'll even remember to use this very often.
Stag’s Leap : (*) Make a running jump without the run. I can't see myself using this ever.
Surprise Shift : (****) A 5-foot step as a swift action, which you can combine with a 5-foot step. Make that step up guy eat it. Or get a full round of attacks against that guy who was just out of reach. Combine with the Lunge feat for even more awesome results.
Tangling Attack : (***) The wording suggests that you have to declare this before the attack, so it's still not as versatile as Hobbling Attack, but the effect is certainly more potent. I don't like how it only lasts a round though.
Trick Shot : (*) As a standard action, and a use of a daily trick, you can do what the Improved Precise Strike feat gives you. If you took Archery as your combat style, you can get Improved Precise Strike a level after you have access to this. Not a good trick.
Uncanny Senses : (**) Gain a +10 to perception as an immediate action for only 1 round. This is one of those odd abilities that begs the question, "if you know it's there, then why do you need to use this to help you know it's there?". However the GM always asks the players to roll their perception, and there's nothing stopping the Ranger from using this trick in that circumstance - hence the 2 stars. If your GM is a jerk and makes you roll your perception for nothing all the time, then give this 1 star. This would be 3 or 4 stars except even if the GM isn't a jerk, not every perception roll is for an ambush.
Upending Strike : (***) What I like about this is that it's a Trip Attack that deals damage. I'm also pretty sure that this wouldn't provoke attacks of opportunity since it's trying to be like your animal companion's trip, so you don't need to get improved trip. What I don't like about this is that without improved trip and any associated feats you can get a hold of, your odds of tripping the opponent are pretty slim in most cases and this will end up being a wasted trick a lot of the time.
Vengeance Strike : (**) I read this as "Enemy provokes attacks of opportunity if they hit one of your allies, except it doesn't use up your attack of opportunity." It instead uses up a trick. This is probably a circumstantial thing, but you can control the circumstance pretty easily, so I really think it's a great pick. I'd give it more stars if they didn't actually have to brain your friend for it to be usable.
I prefer the spells myself but this guide could be helpful for NPC's. Thanks.
-Flash
I prefer the spells myself but this guide could be helpful for NPC's. Thanks.
-Flash
There are definitely some great spells on the Ranger's spell list.
As I mentioned though, spells are the main reason a Ranger bothers with Wisdom at all. A normal ranger requires at least 14 wisdom to be able to use all of his spells. A Skirmisher Ranger could dump wisdom and he could still enjoy Hunter's Tricks. Best of all you can mimic some of the best ranger spells with Hunter's Tricks, but in exchange for much shorter duration you get to afflict enemies without them enjoying a saving throw or SR.
There are indeed some amazing spells on the Ranger's list though that help a ton and don't need saving throws. Energy Resistance, Longstrider, Plant Growth, Wind Wall, Animal Growth, Freedom of Movement, and Magic Fang are all fantastic abilities that are tough giving up.
But you're trading 5 points of stats to get all of these benefits, and just about all of them use Standard Actions - Tricks are all swift, immediate, or free actions you can combine with your other actions.
Additionally a well balanced party might mean you don't even need these buffs and crowd controls because they're already filling that role for you. Granted some staples like Magic Fang, Greater are exclusive to Rangers and Druids so you'll probably be missing them, but I think that there is a definite argument for using Skirmisher instead.
Of course, I know there's preference involved too.
Doesn't Stag Leap give you a free jump? MAke my movement then use a swift for a free 10ft jump, assuming I make the acro check.
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Doesn't Stag Leap give you a free jump? Make my movement then use a swift for a free 10ft jump, assuming I make the acro check.
Hmm...
"Stag’s Leap (Ex): As a free action, the Ranger can attempt a running jump without moving 10 feet before the jump."
Are you trying to say it makes it so you can jump as a free action? I think you can interpret it that way yes. I don't think that's RAI, but it doesn't say you have to use your move action to jump.
This depends on how your DM interprets it. If you can just jump as a free action, then this is definitely a 4 star ability. It basically makes it surprise shift except that it could provoke attacks of opportunity but you don't even have to waste your swift action.
I think that it's supposed to be a free action as part of a jump movement though, removing the need for a 10 foot run. I suppose that could mean you could jump your full 30 feet movement without increasing the acrobatics DC. That's a DC 30 acrobatics check to do that though, and how often are you even going to use that?
What kind of Terrain does your GM use that you'd need to jump around everywhere? Go buy some winged boots and double your movement too.
I prefer the spells myself but this guide could be helpful for NPC's. Thanks.
-Flash
There are definitely some great spells on the Ranger's spell list.
As I mentioned though, spells are the main reason a Ranger bothers with Wisdom at all. A normal ranger requires at least 14 wisdom to be able to use all of his spells.
I like spells but thanks for the guide.
About wisdom, unless you are wealth-starved, 12 is usually enough to get the new spell levels as soon as you get them. With 10 wis and moderate investment (16kgp) you can still cast all of your spells easily.
I prefer the spells myself but this guide could be helpful for NPC's. Thanks.
-Flash
There are definitely some great spells on the Ranger's spell list.
As I mentioned though, spells are the main reason a Ranger bothers with Wisdom at all. A normal ranger requires at least 14 wisdom to be able to use all of his spells.
I like spells but thanks for the guide.
About wisdom, unless you are wealth-starved, 12 is usually enough to get the new spell levels as soon as you get them. With 10 wis and moderate investment (16kgp) you can still cast all of your spells easily.
True.
I've been traumatized by a GM who had us eating the soles of our boots at low levels because we had so little money though. I personally don't like factoring too much gold into the equation when I'm planning my character.
I think there are certain Hunter's Tricks that spells can't duplicate either. Surprise Shift is the golden camel of the bunch, but even Chameleon Step is something that your spells can't do since it's a move action to use (You could just Charge, but that requires you to move in a straight line.)
True.
I've been traumatized by a GM who had us eating the soles of our boots at low levels because we had so little money though. I personally don't like factoring too much gold into the equation when I'm planning my character.
I think there are certain Hunter's Tricks that spells can't duplicate either. Surprise Shift is the golden camel of the bunch, but even Chameleon Step is something that your spells can't do since it's a move action to use (You could just Charge, but that requires you to move in a straight line.)
Ahah, luckly for us we follow the guidelines for wealth pretty closely.
Chameleon step doe not impress me much, as longstrider is usually enough for movement.
Surprise shift is very good though.
I'd also like to have deft stand since I play an archer ranger and being prone really sucks.
I have read it as being you get another 10 ft of movement basically. Or you could use if if you got charged or something like that. Charging Barbarian? Hunters trick...now I am on the other side of this rock. It never even occurred to me that that might not be right.
True.
I've been traumatized by a GM who had us eating the soles of our boots at low levels because we had so little money though. I personally don't like factoring too much gold into the equation when I'm planning my character.
I think there are certain Hunter's Tricks that spells can't duplicate either. Surprise Shift is the golden camel of the bunch, but even Chameleon Step is something that your spells can't do since it's a move action to use (You could just Charge, but that requires you to move in a straight line.)
Ahah, luckly for us we follow the guidelines for wealth pretty closely.
Chameleon step doe not impress me much, as longstrider is usually enough for movement.
Surprise shift is very good though.I'd also like to have deft stand since I play an archer ranger and being prone really sucks.
Yeah deft stand could possibly use another star depending on the GM or adventure path.
However it's still a move action to stand up so if I'm not mistaken the only benefit of deft stand is to avoid the attacks of opportunity. In the archer situation you may be far enough away for it to not matter depending on what knocked you over.
I just see little opportunity to benefit from the trick very often.
I have read it as being you get another 10 ft of movement basically. Or you could use if if you got charged or something like that. Charging Barbarian? Hunters trick...now I am on the other side of this rock. It never even occurred to me that that might not be right.
Don't free actions have to be on your turn anyway? Unless it says otherwise?
Not sure Kap. Anyone have the answer to that one?
I appreciate the feedback, I'm glad it's all positive.
I'm contemplating doing the spells Treantmonk hasn't done for the wizard too, as well as evaluating the archetypes.
I'm sure if I decide to do that you can expect a google doc in about a week.
Free actions are on your turn, Immediate Actions are on anyone's turn.
Free actions are on your turn, Immediate Actions are on anyone's turn.
I thought so.
Does anyone know if any 3PP has taken on Hunter's tricks? I originally took this archetype because I thought it was a neat idea, but without any more support from Paizo I'm beginning to have "buyer's remorse" over the idea.
I prefer the spells myself but this guide could be helpful for NPC's. Thanks.
-Flash
There are definitely some great spells on the Ranger's spell list.
As I mentioned though, spells are the main reason a Ranger bothers with Wisdom at all. A normal ranger requires at least 14 wisdom to be able to use all of his spells. A Skirmisher Ranger could dump wisdom and he could still enjoy Hunter's Tricks. Best of all you can mimic some of the best ranger spells with Hunter's Tricks, but in exchange for much shorter duration you get to afflict enemies without them enjoying a saving throw or SR.
There are indeed some amazing spells on the Ranger's list though that help a ton and don't need saving throws. Energy Resistance, Longstrider, Plant Growth, Wind Wall, Animal Growth, Freedom of Movement, and Magic Fang are all fantastic abilities that are tough giving up.
But you're trading 5 points of stats to get all of these benefits, and just about all of them use Standard Actions - Tricks are all swift, immediate, or free actions you can combine with your other actions.
Additionally a well balanced party might mean you don't even need these buffs and crowd controls because they're already filling that role for you. Granted some staples like Magic Fang, Greater are exclusive to Rangers and Druids so you'll probably be missing them, but I think that there is a definite argument for using Skirmisher instead.
Of course, I know there's preference involved too.
This is a great post, (almost) as good as the guide itself.
I just recently created my first Ranger (a Dwarf TWF) and did it with the help of people on these boards... he started out as a skirmisher for many of the reasons you mentioned but at the end of the day I wanted my spells - a few spells in particular - and I went with the Infiltrator instead.
Thanks for the work - as useful as I know I would have found this, others certainly shall evevn moreso.
Awesome thread! Really useful :) - Currently buildling a Halfling Sling Master + Skrimisher to make it spelless.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/ elven-archer/halfling-sling-master
I was wondering if its reasonable to have wis on 12? Or if its a bad idear? I personally prefer to have the stats stated below, but I may redo them if the 12 wis will seriously cut down the build.
Personally prefer this so faar:
level 6, 25 points.
13 Str
18 Dex
14 Con
12 Int
12 Wis
14 Cha
I got a lot of use out of Sudden Shift and Chameleon Step with my skirmisher. Sic 'Em worked out well, too, with Boon Companion and Power Attack.
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Re: Vengeance Strike
Vengeance Strike (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as an immediate action when an enemy adjacent to him hits an ally with a melee or ranged attack. The Ranger can make a single melee attack at his highest base attack bonus against the creature who attacked his ally.
Vengeance Strike : (**) I read this as "Enemy provokes attacks of opportunity if they hit one of your allies, except it doesn't use up your attack of opportunity." It instead uses up a trick. This is probably a circumstantial thing, but you can control the circumstance pretty easily, so I really think it's a great pick. I'd give it more stars if they didn't actually have to brain your friend for it to be usable.
Check The Paizo FAQ
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."
Given this, and given that one expects to be hit a lot, Vengeance Strike sure looks like 4 stars to me!
I am expecting to learn this Hunter's Trick in two levels for my multi-class Holy Tactician Wild Child (when he is level 8, with three paladin levels and 5 brawler levels).
"Stag's Leap" doesn't let you jump as a free action. Activating it is a free action and you can just jump farther. This was answered in a FAQ-thread a while back.
Nothing in the wording of "Upending Strike" does hint at eliminating the AoO when using the trip, which dials down its usefulness quite a bit - but you could counter the AoO you'll recieve with "Vengeance Strike", if you still have your swift action left.
"Hateful Attack" is not like "Lunge". "Lunge" increases your reach, while "Hateful Attack" increases the threat range = critical threat range. If you have a weapon that threatens at 18-20 and you use this trick, it threatens at 15-20 instead. The only question is, if you can declare its use after the attack roll has been made. I'd say yes, but the wording isn't clear.
The same with "Tangling Attack". Going by the wording it isn't clear, if you have to declare it before you make the roll, or after.