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Strangely enough, and this is from someone who is running one, I am finding handling Lore Wardens in scenarios to be a bit problematic.
Specifically, Lore Wardens using combat maneuvers.
I am running The Ruby Phoenix Tournament, and one of the PCs is an 11th level Lore Warden, built as a sunder fiend.
+4 adamantine greatsword, so both able to sunder any weapons & armor likely to be seen at level. The adamantine, of course, pretty much neutralizes the hardness of those same weapons, since it is likely to only get to 18, at most, for anything he could sunder in any case. High strength, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Greater Sunder; which also means that any damage done past the hit points of the sunder target get dealt to the wielder/wearer.
With the +11 BAB, +6 Str, +4 feats, +6 Lore Warden, +4 weapon enhancement, +2 weapon training, +1 Weapon Focus, even including the -3 from Power Attack, he has something like a +31 CMB for Sunder attempts.
But, against the encounters in the module, he pretty much succeeds on Sunder attacks 95% of the time. Other than natural weapons, is there anything that can be done form the GM side to handle this, and allow some of the other PCs to do some shining?
A similar calculation applied to the Lore Warden I was running through this module, it came to +31 for Disarm and +29 for Trip attempts. Even worse, that PC did NOT have any of the Improved combat maneuver feats, but using a reach weapon so he could get away with it.
+11 BAB, +6 Str, +6 Lore Warden, +1 weapon enhancement, +2 luck bonus (PSFG Dueling enhancement), +2 weapon training, +1 weapon focus, +2 disarm keyword on weapon.
All legal, not incredibly min-maxed, other than the Strength of 22 at 11th level (16, +2 racial, +2 from leveling, +2 belt).
Add in that Lore Warden also gets a fair array of class skills, so they can help during the non-combat stuff, unlike a regular fighter, and they can take up a bit more of the spotlight than maybe they should...
(Mine had +13 in the monster knowledge skills, using their being class skills, 5 ranks, an Int of 16 (14, +2 headband), and +2 from the Dilettante feat, along with some decent numbers in other skills, which means a Take 10 on monster knowledge gives him at least the basics, and can be used to activate the Lore Warden Know Thy Enemy ability, giving another +2 to attacks and damage against a specific target....)
They can take 10 in combat?
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No different than my non-min/maxed Battle Oracle, that when raging/enlarged/bull's strength up can hit in the upper 30's or low 40's for Disarm and Trip.
Right now has a +2 Dueling Furious Heavy Flail. So when Raging has a +17 disarm and +15 Trip, add +10 Str (16 + 2 Racial + 2 Bumps +2 Enlarge +4 Rage +4 Bulls Strength) +9 BAB, +2 Ioun Stone Resonance, +2 Feat for Disarm (+4 Feat for Trip) +1 for Size = 39 Trip & Disarm which also gives him a 49 in both for CMD. Additionally he has Felling Smash and Greater Trip, which means he can Hit at +19 with Power Attack for 2d8+24 (crit 17-20), get an automatic trip attempt at +39, then all allies including myself threatening the guy get an AoO on him.
And while I did optimize a bit for the combat maneuvers, his DPR and CMB would be significantly higher if I'd just made this guy a fighter.
It's true that characters optimized for combat maneuvers can perform them quite well, especially against humanoid-type opponents (that don't have huge Str scores or size bonuses, e.g.). Personally, I don't think there's much the developers can do about the wide variation in CMD scores at this point; maybe they'll change something in Second Edition Pathfinder.
(Note: I don't think this is particularly specific to Lore Wardens or Pathfinder Society play.)
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I would agree that, if there is a problem, I don't think it lies in just the lore warden archetype. Maneuver Magi are what I'd be worried about. Also, every time he's sundering, he's not smacking them for what I can only imagine would be at least a decent amount of consistent damage...2d6+4 (weapon)+2(spec)+2(blade training)+9(str)+9(PA)= ~33 damage.
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But, against the encounters in the module, he pretty much succeeds on Sunder attacks 95% of the time. Other than natural weapons, is there anything that can be done form the GM side to handle this, and allow some of the other PCs to do some shining?
As mainly being a GM I'm throwing it back at you and ask - why does the GM has to help you. You created the build.
Something you and only you can do - use it sparingly.
There is this big ugly fight, it looks bad, you step in and sunder the weapon and turn the fight from close to defeat into victory. This is how epic stories are made.
Alternativly use it at every possible opportunity and it gets stale very, very fast and takes away fun from others.
It is your choice how to use it.
With great power comes great responsibility.
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But, against the encounters in the module, he pretty much succeeds on Sunder attacks 95% of the time. Other than natural weapons, is there anything that can be done form the GM side to handle this, and allow some of the other PCs to do some shining?
As mainly being a GM I'm throwing it back at you and ask - why does the GM has to help you. You created the build.
Something you and only you can do - use it sparingly.
There is this big ugly fight, it looks bad, you step in and sunder the weapon and turn the fight from close to defeat into victory. This is how epic stories are made.
Alternativly use it at every possible opportunity and it gets stale very, very fast and takes away fun from others.
It is your choice how to use it.
With great power comes great responsibility.
I agree. I usually save Bbauzh's trip and/or disarm for suitable moments to try and help save the day.
You have an archetype, therefore, that sacrificed general fighting ability to be good at maneuvers. What's the issue again?
And even more specifically, he sacrificed some general fighting ability to be good at sundering, which is often useless. (Well, less often in PFS perhaps, where humanoid enemies make up a big chunk of your opponents.)
Dude, your breaking Treasure. stop it. ;)
Dude, your breaking Treasure. stop it. ;)
Pathfinder Society doesn't penalize you for sundering treasure, so sunder away!
They can take 10 in combat?
Somehow, I thought no one could take 10 on knowledge rolls except Bards. Otherwise, what does Lore Master do?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard#TOC-Lore-Master-Ex-
"At 5th level, the bard becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in."
There's a clear problem about Sunder: it reduce your party Wealth By Level.
There's a clear problem about Sunder: it reduce your party Wealth By Level.this was originally posted in the PFS boards, where it doesn't reduce WBL
Also note that the spell Make Whole can repair destroyed magic items (if the caster is high enough level), so sundering isn't as injurious to your wealth as it was in 3.5.
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As mainly being a GM I'm throwing it back at you and ask - why does the GM has to help you. You created the build.
But, against the encounters in the module, he pretty much succeeds on Sunder attacks 95% of the time. Other than natural weapons, is there anything that can be done form the GM side to handle this, and allow some of the other PCs to do some shining?
Thod, grats on the fourth star, now try working on your reading comprehension.
My original post was referring to two separate Lore Wardens. ONe, mine, was a non-specialist who had trip and disarm CMBs that were high enough that a 5, yes, a 5, was a high enough roll to succeed on against the highest CMD opponent in the mod who wasn't flying.
The Sunder LW was the one I am GMing FOR, which is why I asked.
And remember that Greater Sunder, along with an admantine +4 weapon, means that, for most weapons, hardness need not apply, and damage in excess of the weapon's hit points applies to the wielder, so not much waste damage there, and there are no +5 weapons that are unsunderable in the module.
Yes, there are many monks in the mod, but most of them start with a weapon they have focus in, and the non-monks tend to have nice special weapons, as well.
And the LW hit points are, in this case, enough to help overcome the low AC situation.
Clarification:
On my whip warden, I verified with the rest of the players, and the GM, as to doing trips and such, and everyone seemed to be in favor of it. There were some opponents where it was not a feasible tactic, and others where it didn't always work out, but some situations were built to be tripper heaven (combat on the face of a cliff, anyone?)
He also helped, seriously, when we wanted to take someone out without killing them (That choice between doing lethal or non-lethal damage, without taking any to hit penalty, is fairly sweet. Prisoners galaore, very few NPC deaths, other than special cases).
Overall, with my whip warden, everyone seemed to enjoy the game. On the other hand, I am not totally sure that the sunder warden is as enjoyable. PFS offers the benefits of not losing gold/access from the equation, but provides other issues.
Oh, well, at this point, from the sign-ups, it looks like the module is going to end with a TPK, since only 2 out of 5 players are signed up for the conclusion this Saturday... And those are the Cleric & Sorcerer players, to boot.