Really easy question I'm sure has come up before.
How many arrows can an effecent quiver hold?
Can I use the section for Javalins to hold more arrows?
God knows my archer does not need to haul around 18 Javalins and 6 staves.
I just want arrows. Maybe I'm just dense but it seems as the other two sections are larger that they could hold arrows as well.
I worked with my GM on what the efficient quiver does. In the end we agreed that the arrow compartment is the only compartment that magically delivers arrows on request. The other sections will hold arrows, but you have to grab them like from any other quiver. I think he ruled they would hold 20 arrows each.
Since my druid is a skilled bowyer/fletcher, she keeps arrow-making supplies in the javelin compartment and makes new arrows while camping. She keeps bows and her staff in the bow compartment.
Since my druid is a skilled bowyer/fletcher, she keeps arrow-making supplies in the javelin compartment and makes new arrows while camping. She keeps bows and her staff in the bow compartment.
Very smart.
In the end we agreed that the arrow compartment is the only compartment that magically delivers arrows on request. The other sections will hold arrows, but you have to grab them like from any other quiver.
Not sure I understand this. When you pull an arrow (or arrows) from a normal quiver during your attack, it is part of your attack action, correct? So it doesn’t require it’s own action. So what would be the difference of pulling the arrows “magically on request” from the Efficient Quiver compared to just pulling them as you would from a normal quiver?
Since a bundle of some 20 arrows would be roughly 2-ft long and 4-5 inches across, there's nothing stopping a character from sliding 3 bundles, end to end, into a compartment of sufficient size and shape to accommodate 6 6-ft long staves. Similarly, two bundles of 30 arrows apiece should fit, end to end, in a compartment large enough to accommodate 18 4-ft long javelins That is to say, at least in my and my GM's opinion, that each compartment of an efficient quiver can accommodate up to 60 arrows each. That seems to me the simplest solution/interpretation.
The quiver's magic ensures that whatever its bearer tries to retrieve from it will always be in hand when he reaches inside; so organization and distribution isn't really an issue. That's why it's an "efficient" quiver.
In my opinion, the bit about javelins and staves is only to illustrate that the quiver's storage spaces are sufficiently large and magically versatile to accommodate gear significantly different than mere arrows if desired.
To be honest, I am pretty unsure now what action is required to pull from a quiver normally.
Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard.
I always thought pulling from a quiver was part of your attack action. But the description in the Efficient Quiver indicates that pulling from a regular quiver or a scabbard is the same kind of action. As far as I know, pulling from a scabbard is a move equivalent action (unless you have Quick Draw).
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Hobbun,
You're correct. If you are pulling javelins/staves from the efficient quiver... it takes a move action unless you have quickdraw.
Drawing arrows is always considered a free action when done along with a bow attack, so it is still a free action from the EQ.
You mean ‘outside of their scope’ for the larger portions, in the sense that the OP wants to use it to carry more arrows, instead of for larger items (as they are larger sections)?
I don’t think that is outside of the scope of the bag. I feel the description is trying to let you know that you ‘can’ put in items as large as javelins (or similar size) for the 18 item limit, and bows, staves, spears, etc., for the 6 item limit. I don’t see any reason if the player wanted the fill those larger compartments with arrows instead, they could carry more arrows as well as pull those arrows like they would from a quiver. i.e. a free action as part of their attack.
Going by how the description reads, I feel that is within it’s limits. But of course, as always, it’s up to DM’s discretion.
Not that I have ever dealt with this, but the simplest solution would be that when you "pull" arrows from the larger compartments, you get a quiver of 20 arrows. As part of your standard action, you should be able to slide them into the arrow compartment. Then the next round you would be able to fire normally. Think of it as switching your clip for a machine gun or something. It is just a reloading process.
Really, this should only come up if you forgot to reload the arrow compartment or if you are in a battle long enough to burn through 60 arrows, which even for a high level character may take a while. Finally, if you are such a great archer that you are burning through 60 arrows in a fight - +20BAB, Rapid Fire, Haste, etc. Then just spend another 1800 and get a second quiver. It is not as though they are expensive.
The rules state pulling anything out of your backpack is a standard action.
No they don't.
Manipulate an Item: "Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action. This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item"
Table: Actions in Combat: "Move Action - Retrieve a stored item"
Now the Handy Haversack( however you spell it) changes that.
No it doesn't.
Handy Haversack: "Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does."
That is also what the quiver does, now since you are using a compartment for something that it does not recognize then you would be spending a Standard Action to remove those arrows from that bag.
No you don't.
Efficient Quiver: "Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard."
"Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action."
Drawing an arrow from an Efficient Quiver is the same as drawing an arrow from a regular quiver: free action.
Drawing a javelin from an Efficient Quiver is the same as drawing a javelin from a regular quiver (or scabbard): move action (or free action with the quick draw feat).
Opinion: The only time you would really need to deal with the whole 'bundles' thing is if you're firing more than 60 arrows in a single combat. Otherwise just wait until you're out of combat and restock the main arrow compartment from your bundles.
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That’s the thing though, I don’t think those larger compartments were designed only for javelins, spears, staves, bows, etc. It just names those weapons to let you know how much room you have for each of those larger pouches.
And the same with the arrow compartment. It is letting you know you can’t fit anything larger in that compartment. At least that’s how I read it.
To keep it simple, I'd advise my player to put weapons in the quiver and other items in a haversack/backpack/bag of holding.
Equating the equivalent masses of items is too much work for me. :)
Good detail by Grick.
Now, arrows are listed as having 20 count in the weapons section, and there is mention that the cost of weapons includes the cost of a scabbard or quiver. So 1 gp gets you a quiver of 20 arrows, so one would conclude a regular quiver holds 20 arrows, there would not likely be slack space in your package deal, and 20 sounds like a reasonable number for a quiver anyway.
The Efficient Quiver holds 60 arrows, and if you need more, there are at least two ways to handle this. One method is that the Efficient Quiver user purchased a bunch of arrows from the market, and discarded the stock quivers. He/she bundled 20 at a time (an easily manageable size) with a quick release knot. Then, it's a move action to get a spare bundle, and another move to put them in the Efficient Quiver, while releasing the knot (or the knot stays in place and the arrows are drawn from the center, releasing the hold the knot has on the arrows, if you prefer). There are no rules to support this, but it seems to make sense to me. Alternatively, it's a move action to get a spare quiver, and a, er... some kind of action to don the regular quiver. Move seems reasonable. So both methods are equivalent: 2 move actions to get an additional 20 arrows ready.
One could also make an argument for having the Efficient Quiver worn on the back, and two regular quivers at the sides, I suppose. But I don't know much about quiver logistics, so I'll leave that to the experts!
Grick has described more or less exactly what my GM and I worked out. To summarize, the arrow portion acts like a quiver, while the javelin and bow portions act like scabbards.
The secondary benefit of an efficient quiver is that you can garab any desired type of arrow as a free action. Since the rules really don't cover what happens when a character reaches back to grab one of a dozen different types of arrows from the same quiver, I have had some GMs rule that pulling a specific arrow from a quiver is a move action. The efficient quiver takes care of that.
Where is someone in a combat where they are using more than 60 arrows in that combat?
The only time I can see it is if you're on a parapet defending against a siege, in which case, you take a turn off firing (to rest your bloody fingers) and put 3 20 pile stacks of arrows in your quiver again to recharge it.
Beyond that, sure, store your extra arrows in the other compartments, up to 3 bound sets of 20 (to equate to 6 staves) and be done with it. How long it takes to pull them out of the stave compartment should be meaningless, since it's done out of combat. You should be refilling the quiver between combats, so you always have 60 in the pocket. It takes a second or two to do so.
Ask the GM if you can have a quiver made that has room for one bow and 120 arrows, for the same price as a regular quiver.
I have allowed those in my games in the past, as well as a 120 crossbow bolt case.
Where is someone in a combat where they are using more than 60 arrows in that combat?
The only time I can see it is if you're on a parapet defending against a siege, in which case, you take a turn off firing (to rest your bloody fingers) and put 3 20 pile stacks of arrows in your quiver again to recharge it.
The Question is for a Zen archer who at high levels can fire up to 9 arrows a round.
sadly 60 do not last that long.
I appreciate all the input and as always I will simply ask my DM.
Ok,
That makes more sense. But if I might point out, quivers do not take up a slot, so the only thing limiting how many you have on you is weight and so called 'common sense'. I'd just pay 1800 gp (pittance at that high a level) and have two on my back, that jumps up to 120 arrows. Given a monk won't be wearing armor, weight becomes a non-issue. For that matter, you could have three (one at right shoulder, one at left shoulder, one behind your head) parallel to your spine and do 180 arrows.