Does anyone find it odd that our GM will take any allies we have put together (NPC allies, not PC characters) and as SOON as they drop unconscious, the enemies will provoke AOOs to Coup De Grace them in order to kill them FOREVER.
Yeah I know we could rez them but we are only level 2.
I'm wondering if there is even any remote way at this low level to try and prevent something like this.
Also it's odd that if a PC character is down... The NPCs that were so eager to Coup De Grace all of the sudden find it's not "worth the time." or other odd excuses considering they just killed 4 other NPCs this way in the subsequent rounds.
We have a dedicated healer, but apparently the NPCs know this and they go straight for the healer every time. (usually knocking her out in 2 rounds, then leaving her to bleed out at like -9 without finishing her off)
Do I just need to wait for higher levels and some more HP to get past this mess? My character is getting clinically depressed at this point as he has lost 10+ good friends in the campaign...
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Ensure he is running it as a Full-Round Actions properly. You should have a round to get to them before they murder your friends, unless they started their round next to a dying player which is likely if they were melee fighting. This is likely complicated by a massive number of mooks, designed for this.
This simply sounds like a case of a murderous DM. If all the players aren't enjoying Murderbrawl Gauntlet, let him know. If he doesn't adapt, quit playing. Life's too short for unfun gaming.
EDIT: Fixed "Another thing my group doesn't do by right of RAW" issue.
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Ensure he is running Full-Round Actions properly. You should have a round to get to them before they murder your friends. The START of their NEXT action would be when they die. This is also assuming they started their action next to the dying player, which admittedly, is likely if they were melee fighting.
This simply sounds like a case of a murderous DM. If all the players aren't enjoying Murderbrawl Gauntlet, let him know. If he doesn't adapt, quit playing. Life's too short for unfun gaming.
Actually, a full-round action is not the same as an action which takes one round to complete. A full round action is complete when your turn is over, not at the beginning of your next turn. An action which takes one round to complete, such as a spell with a casting time of one round, is complete just before your turn on the next round. Two different things.
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Only mindless enemies without any other targets would really coup de grace PCs, even in real life combats people tend to eliminate opposition which currently threatens you, if someone is already on floor unconscious, why bother with him really?
Unfortunatly you can't read his mind, but ask him directly because your fun/game life is at stake!
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El Baron is mistakenly talking about '1 round' actions. A 'full-round' action is completed on the turn it is used. (See 'full-attack' actions for an example.)
There is only one way to prevent a CdG, and that is by being adjacent to the enemy and use the AoO that they provoke to either trip or somehow move them so that they do not threaten their target any longer.
In the meantime, I suggest telling your DM that his NPCs do not seem like real people when they risk their own death just to assure the death of party allies, but avoid doing the same to the PCs.
It's possible the GM is tired of controlling lots of NPCs, and is trying to 'clean up' the battlefield. Ask him if he'd like the players to take over some of these allies.
If that doesn't work, just tell him it's unrealistic when the enemies coup de grace the NPCs at every opportunity while leaving the PCs alone.
EDIT: *cough*
Yeah. I was wrong as well. At least El Baron has some company, eh?
>_>
<_<
Making a coup de grace take one round is a decent house rule, though....
You need to talk to him and tell him it's a problem. If he responds to the request by making things less metagamish then you've got the chance to have fun. If he keeps doing it stop playing with him, and make it clear why.
Yeah I think I'll need to talk with him. After the end of the session he was saying things like, "You should have noticed you left yourself wide open to the cleric being attacked!" (even though the NPC enemy had to take 2 AOOs to get there...) Doesn't seem like his characters value their own lives. They are suicide bombers! "I'll get that cleric even if it KILLS me!"
Also our NPC allies, apparently have anger issues. When their other friends die they explode into rage running into the middle of the 4 enemies, get surrounded and die. Perhaps we need to think our positioning better but when we had 5 melee attackers, and the healer, and the enemy had 13 enemies... I'm not sure positioning was even an option. (Of course there was eventually an opening to the cleric, we were outnumbered 2 to 1!)
Yes they were all level 1 and we were 2. (besides one level 3 enemy, and 3 level 2's)
It was supposed to be a "raid" so I the more enemies wasn't the issue. We won eventually but so came out with 3 of the 5 melee attackers DEAD. The healer, myself, and the other PC unconscious. (An NPC fighter Dwarf and human rogue were the only ones left standing).
So guess what? The Dwarf and Human are now our friends! Wonder how long they will last before killed forever!?
PLUS, they killed Hauns and Frauns! The (gay) fighters who brought happiness with much comic releif! Erg.
Sorry guess I just had to rant.
You're clearly pretty frustrated about this, so taking it to the GM is the only solution. Avoid being confrontational, simply inform him of what is making the game less enjoyable.
Also if you're not playing an adventure path with this DM then you're going to keep running into this level of lethality with every level, not just low ones.
I mean, even if you had the cleric take a level of fighter, use a tower shield, full plate, dodge and total defense he would still just jack the monsters to hit numbers up, or focus down another party member.
the GM probably wants to create a sense of danger, he doesn't want to kill you, so he gives you NPCs that get killed.
But yes it seems like it's too obvious and no fun for you, tell him and he'll hopefully change his style and nearly kill some of you from time to time.
the GM probably wants to create a sense of danger, he doesn't want to kill you, so he gives you NPCs that get killed.
But yes it seems like it's too obvious and no fun for you, tell him and he'll hopefully change his style and nearly kill some of you from time to time.
Thanks all. Sent him a message I'll let you know what he says.
Talk to the DM. Make it clear that you appreciate the fact that he doesn't use CdG on PC characters, but that it feels like he negates the investement you made in getting allies when he uses it on NPC for no reason.
If he does it because he doesn't like playing the NPC allies, he should change the story so the battles involve NPC characters fighting alongside you less often.
Your GM must be a great actor if you are so upset about npc's being killed based on the fact that they are your friends. He is really emotionally involving you. I suggest he get his ass to hollywood, because obviously he will be the next Sir Lawrence Olivier.
On the other hand, perhaps the deaths of the NPC's upsets you so much because you believe you are being robbed of combat resources. In that case, perhaps your GM is trying to tell you that you are relying too much on the additional power (most notably - action economy) that the NPC's give you. Perhaps one of the characters in the party is tremendously charismatic, and there is not much he can do about you being able to engender love and loyalty in NPC's, based on skill rolls. Thus, he is left with the option of sacrificing some of his resources (enemies who suicide-bomb your ally npc's) as the only way (or the easiest way) to balance out the additional power having so many npc's is giving your party.
He texted me back saying they did so because they were "Ruthless Assassins" trying to inflict as much damage as possible on our morale.
Guess I'll have to talk to him more about it, or just re-roll a character that has no loyalties or emotions and therefore doesn't care if all of his allies get Coup De Graced... lol. My current character can't take much more of these losses!
I think the metagame comment was spot on too. A bunch of lvl 1 thieves (the ruthless assassins) apparently have a special archtype called "Ruthless Assassins" which replaces trapfinding with: "You MUST coup de grace an unconcious opponent, even if it means your own death."
XD
Me and the DM are good friends so I'll just see if I can reason with him. Other then that the sessions are awesome so we'll see what we can figure out.
Your GM must be a great actor if you are so upset about npc's being killed based on the fact that they are your friends. He is really emotionally involving you. I suggest he get his ass to hollywood, because obviously he will be the next Sir Lawrence Olivier.
On the other hand, perhaps the deaths of the NPC's upsets you so much because you believe you are being robbed of combat resources. In that case, perhaps your GM is trying to tell you that you are relying too much on the additional power (most notably - action economy) that the NPC's give you. Perhaps one of the characters in the party is tremendously charismatic, and there is not much he can do about you being able to engender love and loyalty in NPC's, based on skill rolls. Thus, he is left with the option of sacrificing some of his resources (enemies who suicide-bomb your ally npc's) as the only way (or the easiest way) to balance out the additional power having so many npc's is giving your party.
You're right about him being a great actor. He is an AMAZING actor with back stories and NPCs. He spends HOURS making every NPC (mainly due to his wife talking to EVERYONE as she is the social monger of the group) have a CRAZY backstory.
So yeah when the NPC SHOULD have just been lvl 1 thug with no attachment. Now it's Hauns and Frauns, my good friends getting KILLED in front of me.
Yes I killed their attacker and avenged them, but still doesn't soften the blow.
I also agree that he probably was balancing the party out a bit. But we seem to be getting murdered pretty well in this campaign. (there has yet to be a fight where me AND the cleric aren't both unconscious) I think the issue is that the NPCs stats are being buffed like crazy. AKA the NPCs usually have a 16 STR or DEX depending on if they are str or dex based to hit. We have godly stats in this game but there is only 3 of us in the party. I would almost rather have less stats and a few more NPCs or PCs to back me up.
We have a 35 point buy, so yeah amazing stats... But having 18s in near 3 stats (17 str, 18 dex, 17 con, 10 int, 14 wis, 8 cha) does not make up for an entire character.
Just thinking outloud here.
There's something called 'cheapening death'. It can refer to an overabundance of resurrections, or an overabundance of death. Either way, it reduces the impact into something closer to an inconvenience.
Does anyone find it odd that our GM will take any allies we have put together (NPC allies, not PC characters) and as SOON as they drop unconscious, the enemies will provoke AOOs to Coup De Grace them in order to kill them FOREVER.
Your DM is essentially trying to tell you not to get allies to do your fighting for you. Face it, if your character is depressed, that's a natural reaction. What's the next logical and dramatic step? To forswear involving others for their own safety...
I agree, it's irrational and illogical the way he is doing it, but that's what this action says to me.
Provoking an AoO is just the GM trying to kill you. Most enemies would not risk an axe to the face if they were being ran with any sort of real logic.
What would Star Trek be without red shirts.
First if the enemies are smart and ruthless they would coup de grace PCs too. I understand why some players don't like it but I prefer the high danger, high threat to the games even if it means my character dies. As for your situation I would welcome the GM offing NPC's via coup de grace but if the idea is that they are ruthless and smart they would do it smart. As in not risking death to accomplish it. However if they are not threatened slice away.
What would Star Trek be without red shirts.
First if the enemies are smart and ruthless they would coup de grace PCs too. I understand why some players don't like it but I prefer the high danger, high threat to the games even if it means my character dies. As for your situation I would welcome the GM offing NPC's via coup de grace but if the idea is that they are ruthless and smart they would do it smart. As in not risking death to accomplish it. However if they are not threatened slice away.
Yeah that makes sense too.
I guess I just got too into my character and let him get into the NPCs too much. It's hard not to with just elaborate back stories. I think after his "section" of the campaign I will re-roll (been wanting to do it anyway) a character with more emotional stability.
It bothers me, but gotta roll with the punches, or find another game, (which I don't really want to do).
What would Star Trek be without red shirts.
First if the enemies are smart and ruthless they would coup de grace PCs too. I understand why some players don't like it but I prefer the high danger, high threat to the games even if it means my character dies. As for your situation I would welcome the GM offing NPC's via coup de grace but if the idea is that they are ruthless and smart they would do it smart. As in not risking death to accomplish it. However if they are not threatened slice away.
Yeah that makes sense too.
I guess I just got too into my character and let him get into the NPCs too much. It's hard not to with just elaborate back stories. I think after his "section" of the campaign I will re-roll (been wanting to do it anyway) a character with more emotional stability.
It bothers me, but gotta roll with the punches, or find another game, (which I don't really want to do).
Well there are other things that can be done if you are that attached. Reckless defense of the fallen, your character leaps atop the body and takes the blow for the NPC, bullrush/grapple the attacker for the AOO, invest the time and money in rezzing them.
Does anyone find it odd that our GM will take any allies we have put together (NPC allies, not PC characters) and as SOON as they drop unconscious, the enemies will provoke AOOs to Coup De Grace them in order to kill them FOREVER.
I guess the good news is he is only doing this crap with NPCs, but it is still a dick move. When he is playing a PC does he PC coup de grace every enemy he knocks out, even if it means drawing an AoO? Of course not, it isn't a winning strategy. It is much better to attack those that still pose a threat and then when the battle is won, you can kill them at your leasure.
Now, going after a healer or killing off a character to prevent healing is a viable tactic (still a dick move in my book). But the DM should never metagame this. They won't know you have a dedicated healer until he's tipped his hand, for all the enemy knows this is some undead slayer or buffer. In any case sometimes its often better to let the healer heal, because it means he isn't attacking you and so what, he spends his turn to revive a foe who is already seriously hurt and is now lying prone.
The DM should run the enemies to win a battle not be a kamakazie to take out one or two people.
The DM is a metagaming dick. Point this out to him. By the way, try to be a bit more dipolomatic than I am.
I'm not sure I agree with the "its not logical" thing. You see, this didn't happen in history because we didn't have someone who could go "Poof, everyone who got stabbed stand up and start fighting again." Clerics can. It makes sense, hit people when they're down if someone else can make them get back up.
These are low level characters who are on suicide missions. They don't have clerics to bring them back, unless the OP forgot to mention they have a mid level cleric backing them.
It also cost 5000gp to use raise dead, and that means 5000 per NPC. I don't that level 2 characters are being given that type of loot. From what the OP has told us it is not logical.
Does anyone find it odd that our GM will take any allies we have put together (NPC allies, not PC characters) and as SOON as they drop unconscious, the enemies will provoke AOOs to Coup De Grace them in order to kill them FOREVER.I guess the good news is he is only doing this crap with NPCs, but it is still a dick move. When he is playing a PC does he PC coup de grace every enemy he knocks out, even if it means drawing an AoO? Of course not, it isn't a winning strategy. It is much better to attack those that still pose a threat and then when the battle is won, you can kill them at your leisure.
Now, going after a healer or killing off a character to prevent healing is a viable tactic (still a dick move in my book). But the DM should never metagame this. They won't know you have a dedicated healer until he's tipped his hand, for all the enemy knows this is some undead slayer or buffer. In any case sometimes its often better to let the healer heal, because it means he isn't attacking you and so what, he spends his turn to revive a foe who is already seriously hurt and is now lying prone.
The DM should run the enemies to win a battle not be a kamakazie to take out one or two people.
The DM is a metagaming dick. Point this out to him. By the way, try to be a bit more diplomatic than I am.
I would say he's definitely metagaming. Don't think he's purposely trying to be a dick.
But he does confuse me sometimes with statements like: "If you don't want the healer attacked you should all stand around her adjacent squares so they can't hit her." Trouble with this tactic is enemies aren't being killed if we are surrounding the cleric and can easly ranged attack us to death. Not a viable option. And also that our party had 3 people in it. I just don't see how we can protect the cleric realistically besides just killing the enemies really fast?
1. As always, talk to the GM about it. Tell him this isn't fun, and if you're not having fun playing a game, he's missing the point. Be civil but firm.
If he is being an utter jerk about the whole thing, then kick him out and have one of the rest of you start GMing the group. It is never worth trying to put up with a jerk in a gaming group. I'd rather play with 2-3 people than 4-6 where I can't stand half the group.
2. Get together and talk with your fellow players about devising good party tactics. Plan out your tactics, with plans As, Bs, and Cs. If your party healer keeps getting targeted, then your PCs have a perfectly good reason to focus on protecting him or her--they've seen them be a constant target. Work on sticking close together and devise flanking tactics so that no one person is fully separated and a target--and that if someone drops, anyone can get easily adjacent to their foes so if the GM tries the coup de grace anyone, someone is there to get the AOO. You don't always want to be clustered because that invites area of effect attacks, but you want to be able to work together as a unit. Work on taking feats that improve your flanking and AOO tactics, and stuff like Step Up or Stand Still so enemies can't easily disengage to go CDG a downed party member. Don't be dicks yourselves, just play the game as best you can and work on protecting each other.
Also work on battle control stuff--get someone who can trip or disarm enemies (can't AOO someone if they can't deal lethal damage). Use spells like grease and web or even items like tanglefoot bags to keep enemies from being able to move around. Use whatever you can to separate the enemies from each other and turn the tables on the GM.
Don't waste rounds CDGing enemies yourself until everyone is down, then kill them or tie them up.
3. But still, seriously, talk to the GM, explain the situation, and if he's being a complete hole without remorse, then get rid of him.
I'm not sure I agree with the "its not logical" thing. You see, this didn't happen in history because we didn't have someone who could go "Poof, everyone who got stabbed stand up and start fighting again." Clerics can. It makes sense, hit people when they're down if someone else can make them get back up.These are low level characters who are on suicide missions. They don't have clerics to bring them back, unless the OP forgot to mention they have a mid level cleric backing them.
It also cost 5000gp to use raise dead, and that means 5000 per NPC. I don't that level 2 characters are being given that type of loot. From what the OP has told us it is not logical.
That is why my point about rezzing them was about rp. They would have to invest in preserving the corpse until they can afford to rez them. Completely impractical, perhaps immpossible but if as the OP is saying he is really attached to the characters then making an impractical move in the memory of his dear friends makes for good rp.
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Do you [i]need/i] allies to survive the fights he is throwing at you, or is he upping the fights to challenge your expanded party?
If you need the allies then maybe you could ask him to go gestalt on the promise that you won't get in the hiring game again.
If he is upping the fights to meet your bigger party then maybe you need to stop recruiting and end the arms race.
I don't really like your GM's approach but I have never before seen a level 2 party that hires a ton of allies: that's not really how the game is designed and at level 2 my players aren't really rolling in loot.
Maybe arrange with your GM to have some kind of shocking ally-betrayal which brings your group closer together but leads them to avoid hooking up with others, that would be a cool way to achieve what your GM wants without the metagame stuff.
The DM is a metagaming dick. Point this out to him. By the way, try to be a bit more dipolomatic than I am.
Thank you, this made me laugh. It is also good advice (on both counts).
That being said ...
Do I just need to wait for higher levels and some more HP to get past this mess? My character is getting clinically depressed at this point as he has lost 10+ good friends in the campaign...
If you're looking for a strictly RP way of handling the NPC thing, your character could always develop some kind of complex where he won't let anyone else fight his battles because such horrible things happen to people he cares about. The kind of angst you'd see in most any episode of Buffy, for instance.
As for the healer, put them in disguise. Hide the holy symbol, carry a purely useless sword, swap robes for pants or vice versa, make it abundantly clear that bad guys won't have any way of knowing who the healer is until s/he starts healing. If the GM gets the point and goes with it, problem solved, and amusingly. If not, the GM is DEFINITELY being a metagaming dick, and you should DEFINITELY point this out to him, and at that point, diplomacy might not be relevant anymore.
The DM is a metagaming dick. Point this out to him. By the way, try to be a bit more dipolomatic than I am.Thank you, this made me laugh. It is also good advice (on both counts).
That being said ...
Do I just need to wait for higher levels and some more HP to get past this mess? My character is getting clinically depressed at this point as he has lost 10+ good friends in the campaign...If you're looking for a strictly RP way of handling the NPC thing, your character could always develop some kind of complex where he won't let anyone else fight his battles because such horrible things happen to people he cares about. The kind of angst you'd see in most any episode of Buffy, for instance.
As for the healer, put them in disguise. Hide the holy symbol, carry a purely useless sword, swap robes for pants or vice versa, make it abundantly clear that bad guys won't have any way of knowing who the healer is until s/he starts healing. If the GM gets the point and goes with it, problem solved, and amusingly. If not, the GM is DEFINITELY being a metagaming dick, and you should DEFINITELY point this out to him, and at that point, diplomacy might not be relevant anymore.
Good advice! Thanks!
He's metagaming unless they were contracted to kill your characters at all costs. As for ways to deal with it either talk to your Dm or become a witch with the hex slumber and take some monstrous feats and pump int.
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honestly if the monster is ferocious it would make sense to have them finish the job. if it is an intelligent combatant the bad guy should not be risking his own life unless it is possible that the healer could bring the bad guy back to life and back into the fight. i have to say i haev been playing games for a long time. and if i ever think there is a chance that an opponenet can come back to the battle i end them permanently. so maybe if you guys just didnt spread out so much you wouldnt have these problems. also maybe your dm just doesnt want you guys to lug a bunch of npcs along with you.
He's metagaming unless they were contracted to kill your characters at all costs.
I wonder what the contract would have to be for them to attack "at all costs." Honestly, whatever it is that makes that realistic would be a fantastic enemy.
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There is no way to adjust to a DM who is essentially metagaming. I think you need to talk to him and tell him you are making the game uninteresting because any work you do in getting NPC allies is wasted in the first combat.
I'm not sure that's really metagaming. It's decent tactics during a life-and-death fight. You make sure that the guy who fell down doesn't pop back up and kill you when your back is turned.
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There's something called 'cheapening death'. It can refer to an overabundance of resurrections, or an overabundance of death. Either way, it reduces the impact into something closer to an inconvenience.
Which, frankly has been a problem with D&D for a LONG time, and with Pathfinder since the very beginning.
There is no way to adjust to a DM who is essentially metagaming. I think you need to talk to him and tell him you are making the game uninteresting because any work you do in getting NPC allies is wasted in the first combat.I'm not sure that's really metagaming. It's decent tactics during a life-and-death fight. You make sure that the guy who fell down doesn't pop back up and kill you when your back is turned.
Not as it was described in the original post it isn't. The OP mentioned the enemy's willingness to even provoke AoO's to do it.
Let's see how the enemy's thought process goes: This guy is laying here, dead, or maybe not. I don't know cause I was never trained in the healing arts. I got two other people threatening right me now. Hmm, but maybe that guy over there will try to save this guy lying at my feet. I'm just guessing because he might be a healer.
I know, the best thing for be to do is bend down and slit this guy's throat even if it means these other two guys can shank me while I'm distracted and his buddy comes over to hit me because he won't be trying to save his little friend here.
Yeah. That's the ticket.
No wonder there is a high turnover rate for evil henchmen.
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Several years ago, I had the BBEG create several artificial humanoids specifically to be killed later. These beings were inserted into the party's orbit and ultimately invited to a appreciation party as the players prepared to leave on a 'long' adventure series (I had not drawn this up as yet...). The BBEG just entering the storyline crashes said party and slaughters 3 of the players' dear friends with but a wave of the hand (dispelling the pseudo-lives). He all but kills the Elf mage in a full tilt magic duel before escaping and the next two sessions were consumed in a crippled hunt for vengeance.
Summed up: They fail to catch him, I drop hints as to his being the BBEG of the upcoming adventures and they're off to the races. The group elevated their game from Candyland to one a bit more serious. Their first encounter saw the BBEG wizard show up and blorch a fourth ally into an unresurrectable goo. When the Cleric couldn't find a soul to call withe gentle repose (in-game effect to hint that there never was a soul...), we dropped into Resident Evil mode. A 'girlfriend' player who had been 'married-in-game' to the last of the four artificials went from an extremely casual, gee-I'm-a-Rogue!-can-I-roll-the-funky-dice? type of player into a grim reaper.
Post adventure, I revealed the storyline at a cookout and they were stunned. The 'GF' has now immersed herself into the local WoD group, dragging her BF along, complete roll reversal.
I'm not sure that's really metagaming. It's decent tactics during a life-and-death fight. You make sure that the guy who fell down doesn't pop back up and kill you when your back is turned.
In some real ancient battles, they would have the trainees right behind the shock-troops to slit throats and make sure those that went down stayed there.
There's something called 'cheapening death'. It can refer to an overabundance of resurrections, or an overabundance of death. Either way, it reduces the impact into something closer to an inconvenience.Which, frankly has been a problem with D&D for a LONG time, and with Pathfinder since the very beginning.
My point was that the GM's skill as a storyteller cannot be gauged by how annoyed the players are by unrealistic NPC deaths. Frankly, turning from conscious foes to go after unconscious ones is plain reckless. It's safer and smarter to defend yourself against those who are currently attacking you.
Especially if going after the unconscious ones provokes attacks of opportunity. That's where the line is drawn between 'questionable' and 'stupid'.
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Frankly, turning from conscious foes to go after unconscious ones is plain reckless. It's safer and smarter to defend yourself against those who are currently attacking you.
Especially if going after the unconscious ones provokes attacks of opportunity. That's where the line is drawn between 'questionable' and 'stupid'.
Not really. In the world of d&d, if you don't finish off your unconscious enemy for certain, there are any number of ways for him to get back up and attack you. Too many classes have methods of healing, and for all you know the guy you just knocked out might be able to kill you with a single blow.
It's FAR better to finish someone off rather than have to constantly knock everyone out again because they're being healed up all at once. It's all about action economy. If you take two rounds to drop a target, you can spend another round to finish him off. Or you can ignore him and risk him getting healed, which makes your first two rounds completely wasted.
Ignoring opponents and allowing them to heal and get back up is a much worse idea tactically than finishing them off. Even if it means you might take a boot to the head.
But, it isn't always easy to tell who the healer is :)
