Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Attention everyone. When you level again, please put a rank in Sense Motive. That is all. :)
Fair enough. As I said, I have a lot of respect for you. That's why I'm willing to call you out on something if I blow my sense motive. I know you'll correct me. (-:
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As a relatively new PFS player (have recently just finished my first PFS game ... go me), but a GM of some 26 years (and working on running my own PFS games at my local games group), I think what is in place currently with Mike deciding what is boons are applicable to what Big CON's, Little CON's, etc get.
Unfortunately, some peeps are never going to see Uber Boons as they don't live in an area where they could fill 3 tables let alone 10, but with Mike deciding on what should be awarded, and dependant on the commitment of the person organising the Something CON, I believe he should be able to allocate the Boons.
I am a very Black and White person, but I think in this case, you need a fair bit of Gray, and be happy that the Gray is run by Mike ...
Mike, please don't let a minority influence your decision ... I think this thread has pretty much reflected that :)
Good luck all,
NGP
Aye!
EXCEPT for the "online events will not qualify for boons of any sort" remark. I "boo" at that one.
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I think that boons for cons does penalize people who don't live in an area where cons are or have the time commitment to put into them. Yes, "reward" and all that but let's be honest, this is a game.
But I desire to play at a table with someone playing a Kitsuné about as much as I desire to play at a table with a character in full bondage gear and a ball gag. This has happened before, so...
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But I desire to play at a table with someone playing a Kitsuné about as much as I desire to play at a table with a character in full bondage gear and a ball gag.
I understand your desire to play at a table with a kitsune, but it seems that most people wouldn't want that.
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I understand your desire to play at a table with a kitsune, but it seems that most people wouldn't want that.
But I desire to play at a table with someone playing a Kitsuné about as much as I desire to play at a table with a character in full bondage gear and a ball gag.
Reread that Cheapy... he's saying he doesn't want to sit with a kitsune
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Reread that Cheapy... he's saying he doesn't want to sit with a kitsuneI understand your desire to play at a table with a kitsune, but it seems that most people wouldn't want that.
But I desire to play at a table with someone playing a Kitsuné about as much as I desire to play at a table with a character in full bondage gear and a ball gag.
Is he? ;)
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Reread that Cheapy... he's saying he doesn't want to sit with a kitsuneI understand your desire to play at a table with a kitsune, but it seems that most people wouldn't want that.
But I desire to play at a table with someone playing a Kitsuné about as much as I desire to play at a table with a character in full bondage gear and a ball gag.
They obviously have different ideas about what constitutes a fun evening.
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I think that boons for cons does penalize people who don't live in an area where cons are or have the time commitment to put into them. Yes, "reward" and all that but let's be honest, this is a game.
But I desire to play at a table with someone playing a Kitsuné about as much as I desire to play at a table with a character in full bondage gear and a ball gag. This has happened before, so...
You've been to the Paracountess's parties I see.
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I still have a very hard time understanding the logic that you are recieving a penalty for not going to a convention. That to me, is like saying you were penalized $5 for not noticing the $5 bill you walked past on your way to work. I guess I don't get how you are penalized for something you couldn't get in the first place. Am I penalized my "ownership" of the moon because I can't get up there?
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Because at its core, a game is about having fun. If you're saying "Well, I guess because you couldn't take an entire day and pay X dollars to go to a convention then you should have less options for fun than other people!" then I think that's a tiny bit against the spirit of games in general. I just think a lot of people in Pathfinder (and formerly the RPGA had this problem as well) assume everyone has a near infinite desire to spend days in a smelly room playing these games for the sake of that next cool thing they can access.
I think boons for cons are a great idea, don't get me wrong, but perhaps a more labour intensive option (such as, say, spend 30 prestige on a pre-existing character?) would open it up a bit more.
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The reason that con-exclusive races are the issue specifically is as Stonecutting said, races are published character options which a person playing PFS can see in a book and say "ooh, I want that" especially now with the ARG out as a top line release, ~half of which is devoted to rare races.
I know that OP in general is skewed towards cons since the point is to have lots of people visibly playing PF, but like it or not it does stratify the player base between people who are on the convention circuit and people who are not because of finances, time, or location. Compounding this problem is that for a lot of people in especially remote locations, occasional PFS is the only chance we have to play at all, so saying "play it in a home game" even is not a useful comment.
I can see how it serves the purposes of the organized play environment to keep races as the draw to cons, because they are a proven draw. I am very disappointed, however, in the decision to not support online play.
I also think that this issue has been beaten to death at this point. We should wait until Guide 4.2 comes out, since we know that there might be changes. Then we can work from whatever the new situation is.
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I'm not arguing that you want full access, or more access and that it's wrong. I'm more confused by the logic that you're being "penalized", for another example, am I penalized because my parents were lower middle class and I wasn't born with a spoon thus have not lead a wealthy life? Am I penalized because I'm short and can't reach the top shelf in my kitchen without a stool but my buddy can?
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Stonecutting -- I don't think anyone is saying that you shouldn't be allowed to have fun because you didn't go to a convention, and no one is expecting you to sit in a room of smelly gamers for a weekend if you don't want to or cannot. However, I don't feel that anyone is saying that you should have less fun because of that.
Someone somewhere up thread made the comment that there are going to be pockets of people that due to size of gaming in their area, w/out going to a larger convention they aren't going to see the boons. To me that can't ring truer. If life was fair across the board, I wouldn't have to work for a living, I'd own my own home instead of renting and I'd be a perfect 10. Instead I have to work to pay my rent and I'm a little overweight... such is life and the cards that I've been dealt. I've learned to suck it up and deal with those cards ..
Now I'm not saying for anyone to shut up and deal with it -- so don't start putting those words in my mouth -- but what I am saying is that everyone has to realize that Paizo can't please everyone across the world all at the same time, it's not going to happen and we all have to accept that at one point or another we're going to be dissappointed.
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Right but saying "Life isn't fair with regards to equal access so why should this fantasy game we play with little pewter men and dice for fun be any different?" is really really terrible logic.
But that's logic 90% of the people complaining about not getting boons use.. sorry, but if my side can't use it, your side can't either.
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Right but saying "Life isn't fair with regards to equal access so why should this fantasy game we play with little pewter men and dice for fun be any different?" is really really terrible logic.
What she is saying, is that Paizo is made up of people. And people can't make other people happy 100% of the time. Meaning that no matter how much time and money they put into it, they cannot make a system that will please all members of the PFS community all of the time.
You don't like the boons, but you like the rest of PFS. So, don't focus on what you don't like, focus on what Paizo has done right and enjoy the game.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Someone somewhere up thread made the comment that there are going to be pockets of people that due to size of gaming in their area, w/out going to a larger convention they aren't going to see the boons. To me that can't ring truer. If life was fair across the board, I wouldn't have to work for a living, I'd own my own home instead of renting and I'd be a perfect 10. Instead I have to work to pay my rent and I'm a little overweight... such is life and the cards that I've been dealt. I've learned to suck it up and deal with those cards ..
Or you could be a 1 and living in a hut. As long as everyone does, it's all 'fair' :P
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Right but saying "Life isn't fair with regards to equal access so why should this fantasy game we play with little pewter men and dice for fun be any different?" is really really terrible logic.What she is saying, is that Paizo is made up of people. And people can't make other people happy 100% of the time. Meaning that no matter how much time and money they put into it, they cannot make a system that will please all members of the PFS community all of the time.
You don't like the boons, but you like the rest of PFS. So, don't focus on what you don't like, focus on what Paizo has done right and enjoy the game.
Amen
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You don't like the boons, but you like the rest of PFS. So, don't focus on what you don't like, focus on what Paizo has done right and enjoy the game.
If I can add a third way Alexander...
You work on changing the things you don't like. Not in the 'it's not fair' pouting kind of way, but suggesting alternatives, corrupting the system from the inside, er, working with others in the system etc.
But to do that, you have to participate.
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What I'm saying though is making stuff entirely exclusive to cons doesn't make sense, because you're allowing some people to have more fun than others by virtue of circumstances that others may not share (financial, time, etc.) which, outside of very specific circumstances, they're not actually able to catch up to. The comparison that stuff isn't fair of in real life doesn't make sense, because things like economic distribution ARE zero-sum games. Contrast that with pathfinder, someone else playing a funny race because they went to a con doesn't get to have any less fun than someone playing the same funny race because they spent Prestige or something opening up access to it. In both cases they're rewards, but one doesn't assume it's reasonable to place a financial burden on someone for the sake of a fantasy game.
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I guess there is a flip side to this story too. Some people don't like that not everyone can get them, and there are some who would hate it if everyone could. I would definitely not enjoy the system as much if it did open all the races, but it would not stop me playing. Bottome line, someone has to lose to some degree.
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I guess there is a flip side to this story too. Some people don't like that not everyone can get them, and there are some who would hate it if everyone could. I would definitely not enjoy the system as much if it did open all the races, but it would not stop me playing. Bottome line, someone has to lose to some degree.
Yea, buts lets err on the side of being more egalitarian.
I'm committed to helping change things with Matthew Morris. What this means is giving a wider set of people the chance to earn a boon. This could be by letting online events have boon support. This could be by rewarding DMs with boons proportionate to the number of stars they have.
Please be willing to at least talk about it instead of just writing off a segment of the community because not 100% of people can be happy.
Stonecutting, you are not helping your case by saying hyperbolic things.
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What I'm saying though is making stuff entirely exclusive to cons doesn't make sense, because you're allowing some people to have more fun than others by virtue of circumstances that others may not share (financial, time, etc.) which, outside of very specific circumstances, they're not actually able to catch up to. The comparison that stuff isn't fair of in real life doesn't make sense, because things like economic distribution ARE zero-sum games. Contrast that with pathfinder, someone else playing a funny race because they went to a con doesn't get to have any less fun than someone playing the same funny race because they spent Prestige or something opening up access to it. In both cases they're rewards, but one doesn't assume it's reasonable to place a financial burden on someone for the sake of a fantasy game.
You say we cannot use "it's not fair" and bring in real-life economics, however, by the simple virtue of stating that people cannot attend cons due to their circumstances brings real-life economics because some of that "circumstance" is that people cannot afford to go.
There has to be a dividing line between when things are available and when things aren't. Paizo has make that line with making the boons convention only... it's not as if they are only at the huge conventions, smaller local conventions can get them too if they have the tables to qualify.
Paizo isn't asking you to spend tons of money to go to conventions, that is a free-will choice that you make, to go or not to go. If you go you get a chance at something because you have made the committment to go. If you don't, then you don't get a chance at something. Is it something that 100% of the player base is going to be happy with? no, because not 100% of the playerbase can make it to conventions.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but thems' the breaks. Not everything in life, be it real or fantasy is going to be fair.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Stonecunning
For 'financial burden's' sake, for big cons, you can get your rooms sometimes 'comped' by the powers that be. IIRC, they did that at Origins this year*.
The Boons *do* serve a purpose, to raise visibility at conventions. I know of one pair of players who played their first game at Origins because of the size of the room, and stayed because of the skill of the GMs. I've nothing against Boons as a concept, even while I argue the system should be changed.** I plan to dope myself up on my anti-depressants and pitch in next year at Origins. Not in hope of getting a boon, but in hope of getting my hobby to grow. If I got a boon, I might use it, I might give it to my niece or nephew, heck I might save it and give it out to the best player at a table I run in the future. I might even sell it on e-bay.*** Point is, the boons aren't going away. *shrug*
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Right, but that's saying "One group of people thinks in the name of fun everyone should have fair access. Another group has a raging ego and hates their sense of superiority being trampled on by other people who want to have fun! Someone has to lose!"
I'm having a hard time understanding just what you're complaining about. You've made it abundantly clear that you wouldn't even want to sit at a table with, let alone play, a Kitsune. So the fact that you couldn't get a convention boon to play a Kitsune isn't going to have any effect on your character(s). But despite this you seem to want to deny others who don't share your viewpoint the option to play a Kitsune, just because they could only have acquired that option at a sizeable convention.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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you're allowing some people to have more fun than others by virtue of circumstances that others may not share
If you want to talk about fun differentials based on circumstances outside the players' control...
Not everyone has the same intellectual capacity. Some people can assemble an unholy death machine of a build in their sleep (and one who still looks pretty and has great skills!) and use perfect movement and tactics during combat. Others may have trouble grasping moderately-complex rules interactions in otherwise straightforward builds, and keep missing tactical opportunities.
The circumstances are outside these two players' control - they can't help that one was born with more powerful neural "equipment" than the other. But one player is going to succeed more often than not, while the other is going to keep dying and/or facing a barrage of unwelcome "help", and therefore have less fun.
So due to cicumstances completely outside his control, the latter player is having less fun, because the game rewards mental acrobatics and tactical acumen, and by no fault of his own he just can't keep up.
Should we then be lobbying to change the rules of the game to eliminate factors that give an edge to the smarter tactical player (such as flanking, terrain, etc) so that everyone can have the same level of fun?
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Right, but that's saying "One group of people thinks in the name of fun everyone should have fair access. Another group has a raging ego and hates their sense of superiority being trampled on by other people who want to have fun! Someone has to lose!"
Not what I was saying.
Think of it this way. In a our world, nothing is fair, and in fact with gamers you have a large enough number of them that when they get an even fictional "advantage" over their peers. They feel good, because for once they have something that few if anyone else has. When everyone has something, it's no longer "special". If everyone is special, no one is. That is how they feel. It doesn't make them wrong, it just makes them different.
Now for me. I would not like it because I get it, and you don't. I actually give my racial boons away for free to random strangers. I don't care about them, and I personally don't like them. I like my humano centric world and would prefer it to stay that way. Though, this is my opinion and my tastes.
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Can we just agree that Kitsune should never be allowed for play, ever, and then disagree elsewhere? At its core I'm happy with anything as long as I don't have to play with kitsune.
What is it exactly that you're fighting for?
Is it that you don't like a race and therefore it should be made legal? What about if I didn't like dwarves and lobbied for dwarves to be made illegal?
You have the option at each and every game you play to get up and leave the table if you don't like the makeup of the table. You have the power to make the choice to stay and enjoy a game despaite the person beside you wearting a tail and fuzzy ears or get up and walk away and complain about the "furry" that sat at "your" table.
*insert line where I want to say something snarky and mean and I'm not.. I should get a cookie *
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Can we just agree that Kitsune should never be allowed for play, ever, and then disagree elsewhere? At its core I'm happy with anything as long as I don't have to play with kitsune.
No, we can't agree on that. Nor can we all agree that Synthesists (or Gunfighters, or Half-Orcs, or power gamers, or sub-optimal character builds, or ...) should be banned from the table.
