Hello Pathfinder Community. This is a feel I am trying to get for an Optimized Pathfinder only build.
I've been knocking this build around in my head for a day or two now and I am wondering what people think. Here we go.
The premise of this character is not damage. Heck he might never even deal a point of damage, but(!) he is going to be tough as nails and hard to get around.
So I am thinking Half-Orc, Fighter (Phalanx Soldier) 20(?)
With a guisarme, some full plate, and a big ole shield (thinking tower eventually, probably just start with large steel)
Here's what he does, he stands there with butt loads of strength, as much con as i can eek out and enough dex and int to get me the feats I need. Then as any enemies who get close he trips or bull rushes, then aids actions, and takes hits for other party members. He is built to be a hit taker for a party full of vulnerable glass cannons.
He has healing back up so no worries about that. His job is to take damage, demoralize the crap out of the enemy, and then use combat maneuvers until the GM wakes up with night terrors about what he does to the opposition. Since this build focuses on one class I doubt I need to list out every little stat for this character, but since homeboy gets something like 21 feats I will bother to list that.
Feats
Combat reflexes
Improved trip
Combat expertise
Shield focus
Covering defense
Dodge
Mobility
Intimidating prowess
Weapon Focus
Dazzling Display
Penetrating strike
Greater Trip
Endurance
Diehard
Drag down
Power attack
Missile shield
Swift aid
Felling smash
In Harm's Way
Combat Patrol
Ironhide (?)
I am not even set on this list. This is just the prelim list that I've managed to hobble together to get a grasp of what this guy will be capable of. I have considered Paladin being another option, half as many feats, but better saves and personal healing. Though there is a group cleric so healing is not something I have to worry about with a meat shield build to do himself.
The only ones I am really set on are probably the greater trip line, and the in harm's way line. Which are the real flavor to this character as a whole. Next favorite is probably dazzling display because a -2 debuff to everything that can see or hear him within 30 ft? Sign me up.
Diehard is just awesome anyway what fighter couldn't use a free chance to auto stabilize, and keep fighting until he's actually dead?
Anyway any ideas would be much appreciated.
Isn't guisarme a two-handed weapon? How are you going to use a shield with it?
Easy peasy, Phalanx Soldier level 3 class ability: Phalanx Fighting (Ex): At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon. This ability replaces armor training 1.
Edit: APG pg 105.
Isn't guisarme a two-handed weapon? How are you going to use a shield with it?
With Phalanx Soldier, of course.
Still, I'd probably take Lore Warden instead. The AC is not that important, especially if you WANT the enemy to tackle you instead of the squishies. Being able to reliably Trip them is worth more.
You could dip Cavalier to get your heavy armor proficiency back.
I would definately add stand still to the list of feats. Relying solely on trip in practice becomes too narrow, especially at higher levels when enemies with flying becomes common.
You need to get a ruling whether stand still can be used with combat patrol (I do not know whether the subject has been touched on the boards). If it is allowed, then you will be very efficient in protecting a large area, ensuring that the enemies will have a hard time getting to your glass cannons.
Still, I'd probably take Lore Warden instead. The AC is not that important, especially if you WANT the enemy to tackle you instead of the squishies. Being able to reliably Trip them is worth more.You could dip Cavalier to get your heavy armor proficiency back.
First; I've looked at Lore Warden since this is like the third time in 2 days of me being on this Forum that is has been suggested, and honestly I don't think Lore Warden is worth anything at all, not only that, but I will happily break it down on why I don't think Lore Warden is worth anything.
Why Lore Warden doesn't work:
Scholastic: Useless for my build. I don't care for him to know anything about anything and he loses his proficiencies with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields? HA! He is not meant to be a skill monkey. Extra knowledge for this fighter build is a waste of the proficiencies.
Expertise: One of two abilities that is even half way useful, but as I said in my OP he has the stats and have the room for Combat Expertise as a feat already.
Maneuver Mastery: The only ability that is actually useful in the entire archtype for this build. Additional CMB and CMD excellent ability.
Know Thy Enemy: Don't care in the slightest. I don't need an ability that gives me a +2 to attack and damages, since for the most part I don't plan on attacking or damaging creatures. And as this ability doesn't give me any bonus to CMB or CMD, it is useless.
Hair's Breadth: You mean I can roll a skill that's not on my skill list, that is subject to armor check penalty to my to avoid a critical hit? Pass.
Swift Lore: I can use a useless ability even faster? No thanks.
Know Weakness: Would be a half way useful ability if it wasn't at level 19 and at the end line of an archtype that has one useful ability that the build would gain at level 3.
Thanks for the input Rasmus, but your suggestions aren't even close to what I was looking for. I am trying to optimize a build that can and will take hits not just get tackled relying on CMD over AC to protect him. If I built a character who was meant to take hits without AC my GM would kill him as soon as he got the chance. "But I thought the zombie was just going to tackle me I didn't actually expect him to try to hit me... my AC is only 13...oh so the zombie killed me because he just regular attacked me?... All right, hm I wonder what my next character should be." Would be the general line of conversation that would lead to with my GM.Plus I don't want to have to dip into a role playing restrictive class that has only minor abilities that wouldn't help my build out either just to get back armor and shield proficiencies (Not even getting them all back). All for a measly tiered bonus to CMB and CMD which overall wouldn't help terribly much as the build with a decent magic item progression would keep up with a party encounter CR's CMD.
Anything that boosts attacks, boosts CMB. But Lore Warden is all about the Maneuver Mastery.
Also, when I said "tackle", I meant "focus attacks on". I think by now we all know what an utter trap Devoted Defender is, because AC don't mean s+#+ if you can't meaningfully engage the enemy. For the same reason, don't focus too much on AC for your build. At higher levels, Combo Breakers (of which Fighters have very few) that protect you from Full Attacks are the way to survive.
Here's the basic tactics that this character will represent.
He's going to walk into a room and stand between the monster group and the rest of the party. He's going to threaten a 10 ft. area and trip anyone that moves as an opportunity attack. With greater trip when they fall down they will provoke AoO for the rest of the party. When they try to stand up they will provoke AoO for the rest of the party, and he will attempt to trip again for his own AoO. So the cycle repeats. He will use the Aid another action as a swift action with Swift Aid and probably do a full defense action. And use that on the one other melee character in the party. That way if an enemy tries to hit the other melee character, then not only will the other character get his full bonus to AC from the shield, but also another +1 from swift action, and if the attack still manages to get through, he can take full damage from the attack that way the other character won't get hurt at all. All the while have the cleric healing him as he takes damage through the fight, and if healing can't keep up then he will be able to still do all of that (except he won't have a move action) until he is actually dead (not just unconscious.)
That is the plan and purpose for this character. Just wondering if anyone has a better way to do this other than the myriad of feats I've selected.
Just FYI, you cannot attempt to trip a character that is standing up from being tripped with your AoO as when you take your AoO they are already prone.
You can't make someone more prone than prone, so you take your AoO and hit them with damage, then trip them on your action or if they try to move away.
With greater trip when they fall down they will provoke AoO for the rest of the party.
Wait, what? *checks the book* .....I had NOT noticed that. Neat.
I am playing a rather similar character (occasionally, as my group doesn't meet so often) and made a brainstorm thread for it when I started him - maybe you might want to take a look. ;)
One difference is that I chose a heavy spiked shield (with Shield Bash, Improved Shield Bash, eventually Shield Mastery) so that I am able to SB/BR (shield bash/bull rush) if someone manages to stay on his feet and gets into an adjacend square, where I can't attack with reach, or when I want to move an opponent away from my protégé (in my case: a fragile oracle).
As if you didn't have enough feats to choose from already, Pin Down is also nice as it prevents your opponents to use 5ft-steps or withdraw actions to leave your danger zone once they realize that they don't get away from you with normal move actions. I'd take that instead of Drag Down (too situational for my taste).
Another thing you might consider is taking one level of cavalier, Emissary archetype to move at full speed while wearing medium armor. Eventually buying a Celestial Plate Armor which counts as medium and gives you a great AC while not crippling the number of AoOs you can make thanks to Combat Reflexes.
You could also take three levels of cavalier - as I see it, for a level 20 build, you have at least three levels to play around, since Shield Ally caps at 17 and the capstone ability is not thaaaaat great (it's good, but not awesome). In that case, my advise would be to take three levels of Emissary (see above) + Honor Guard Cavalier. You get rid of cavalier's charge in change for getting the bodyguard feat (allows you to aid another as an AoO) and +1 to the AC you can give an ally with aid another.
That is actually (a bit ironic because it is none of the possibilities I listed in the thread back then ^^) the build I'm almost certainly going to end up with, PS fighter 17, HG+E cavalier 3.
I calculated the bonus AC I could give to my protégé for several different builds and I this came out best.
I haven't taken Endurance, Die Hard or stuff like that because I don't think they are necessary when you have a healer right behind you.
And when or if the glass cannons realize how important you are to keep their butts save, at least some of them should afford to use some of their spell slots and actions to buff you up nicely.
Atm, I'm using a transformative polearm which is normally used as a Horsechopper (d10, reach, trip), but I like to be able to change it into a Lucerne Hammer (should I ever want to use my Ready Pike brace ability) or whatever else I might need, and a bashing shield (wish it also had arrow catching and maybe even arrow deflection on top), and it works pretty well.
Too late to edit...
One difference is that I chose a heavy spiked shield (with Shield Bash, Improved Shield Bash, eventually Shield Mastery)
Of course it ought to be: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam, eventually Shield Master.
You feat-list lack Bodyguard, which is a requisite for In Harm's Way.
You lack Pin Down, that feat is pretty crucial for what you want to do, IMO.
May also want to consider Dazing or Stunning (can retrain Dazing to it at 16 if you want) Assault feats, to make your hits cause foes to lose their turn and get stopped in their tracks.
Be sure to utilize the Fighter's feat retraining option. For example, you have Dazzling Display. And that's fine for the low levels. Once you hit BAB +11 however, Dreadful Carnage is much much better, IMO. You could retrain Dazzling Display at Fighter 12 and pick up Dreadful Carnage at level 11 (or wait till 12 and directly swap Dazzling Display for it).
By the way, look at the racial (untyped) trait: Helpful. An extra +2 trait bonus when you use aid another (ie bodyguard).
Oh. You're right! I always thought it was halfling only, because it was in the Halfing book, but... it actually isn't typed as such. Ouch.
However, in line with something I wanted to add to my post... It's only a topic if you multiclass into cavalier, but:
it is debatable wether the Helpful trait stacks with the Order of the Dragon ability.
The trait says that you grant +4 instead of +2, OotD ability says that you grant +3 (which is probably meant to say "instead of +2), so probably only the higher one counts.
(Other abilities that change aid another say that they increase the bonus by x, which is safe).
Now, what I wanted to add...
With my build at level 20, you could grant an ally a total of
+1 dodge during challenge (HG cav)
+5 Aid another (+4 trait, +1 increase HG cav) as AoO.
And still +5 AC (aid another) to some other allies.
Alternatively, you can give multiple allies +9 (aid another + cover) AC.
Btw: normally I'd take Order of the Dragon (because of the +3 aid another, perception as class skill, and allies gain +1 on attack rolls as long as you threaten the target of your challenge), but when you take the Helpful trait, you could as well take another Order.
Friendly Switch. It's a highly underrated feat.
|
i built a very similer character to this one. ill find it and post it.
just fyi even though you dont like lorewarden, at 20th level you wont have a very good chance to trip a balor/pitfiend at that level. the +10 you get from that class will make it an auto sucess with the dueling -fg enchant.
i mean my lorewarden can trip an ancient gold dragon on a 3+ counting the second set of legs. not to say i should ever be able to do it, because it should be flying but you get my point.
feats:
h iron will
1 doge
f combat reflexes
f improved trip combat expertise
3 improved iron will
f mobility
5 combat patrol
f greater trip
7(cleric) spring attack
9 whirlwind attack
f lunge
11 pin down
f fury's fall
skills: Lv1
acrobatics 3 (+trait if traits are allowed)
knowledge arcana 5
knowledge dungeneering 5
knowledge nature 5
knowledge planes 5
knowledge religion 5
the knowledge checks are important to role play. most people meta game npcs because they read the beastiary, but your character should not know that a red dragon is immune to fire and what not. i only make chatacters to 12 because most games end at that point.
now personally im debating getting rid of whirlwind and spring attack and taking improved grapple and hamatula strike. it allows for me to shut casters down for the entire fight by throwing a javalin and grappling them. cheezy as hell but it works.