The Manuever Master is a beast

[cranewings]

So the MM in my group is 4th level. He came around a corner and jumped into melee with a 7th level Drow cleric with two buffs already active and a 26 AC. The MM was enlarged.

The Monk grabs the cleric. The cleric channel smites him for close to 30. Then the Manuever Master picks her up and slams her on her back, then ties her shoulder strap to her boot and sticks a knee into her back while prone on the ground - round two.

It's sick.

I don't have much of a problem with it. I mean, fighters still blow him up - but he just wrecks clerics, wizards and rogues.

[BYC]

I've been planning out a character that is more of a melee class but doesn't deal damage. Therefore, it's important to neutralize opponents effectively or be able to flank or aid another.

I was definitely think of maneuver master monk, and I still plan on that. Dirty trick is one move, but I think I decided I was going to go Grapple as the other since I can pin, and then use rope to make the target helpless. I've been playing around with the idea and builds for months now, and nothing has discouraged me from do this.

[Vendis]

I like this. I prefer casters as a player, but it's nice to see martials kicking casters' butts.

[cranewings]

I like it to. My next character is probably going to be a monk if I ever get to play again.

It definitely feels cheesy while you are doing it, and without crane style or deflect arrows, the monk is a pin cushion, but I swear, if you pump his saves and take crane style / deflect arrows, there isn't much of a way to keep him from tying anyone up.

[StreamOfTheSky]

4th level MM Monk... 4d8 HD with 4*con mod hit points... Assiming 14 Con, which is pretty generous given the need for str, dex, and wis as well... you get 8 (1st HD) +13.5 (4.5*3, average of the other 3d8) +8 (4*2; con mod) = 29.5 hp, on average. 4 more if using favored class for hp.

It's amazing the monk was still standing after that single hit. Regardless, the fact that the cleric nearly killed the MM in a single hit while he was doing his thing for 2+ rounds really undercuts your whole "MM is beastly!" message...

[cranewings]

Stream, the cleric was three levels higher and set up for high defense and cheesy channel smite damage. Trapped in a hall with a d8 + 4d6 damage + 3 damage dealing cleric with a huge AC and nearly 50 hp and iron will would be hard for any 4th level character do find a way through. The fact he beat her without being a two hand fighter rolling a crit is scary. Sure he could save for half on the channel damage, but it was a two hit kill either way.

[Sakagamihime]

The MM, like almost all classes, is a beast under certain situations. The MM is probably going to get a lot worse very quickly as soon as you start facing less-humanoid enemies. Grappling a Drider will probably not go well.

[Malfus]

CMD 21 isn't bad for a CR 7. For instance at level 7, an MM could have 7(*BAB*)+5(STR)+2(imp grap)+1(wf(us))+1(AoMF) for a +16 CMB. He would have to roll a 5 or higher to grapple. In fact, he just has to roll 5 once and then not auto-fail on two more attempts and the drider becomes helpless. New grapple is OP.

[Gilman the Dog]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

4th level MM Monk... 4d8 HD with 4*con mod hit points... Assiming 14 Con, which is pretty generous given the need for str, dex, and wis as well... you get 8 (1st HD) +13.5 (4.5*3, average of the other 3d8) +8 (4*2; con mod) = 29.5 hp, on average. 4 more if using favored class for hp.

It's amazing the monk was still standing after that single hit. Regardless, the fact that the cleric nearly killed the MM in a single hit while he was doing his thing for 2+ rounds really undercuts your whole "MM is beastly!" message...

Uh, buddy, currently the score is monk 1, cleric 0.

Scoreboard.

[TarkXT]

Sakagamihime wrote:

The MM, like almost all classes, is a beast under certain situations. The MM is probably going to get a lot worse very quickly as soon as you start facing less-humanoid enemies. Grappling a Drider will probably not go well.

It was ninjaed above me but as far as grappling goes the Drider is kind of a joke even for 6th level guy. Add in one or two buffs and you can count the drider thoroughly grappled.

I personally would love to try a Dirty Trick monk. Dirty Trick is one of those combat maneuvers that hasn't quite had a good defense written into monsters like Trip and Grapple have.

[Sakagamihime]

Malfus wrote:

CMD 21 isn't bad for a CR 7. For instance at level 7, an MM could have 7(*BAB*)+5(STR)+2(imp grap)+1(wf(us))+1(AoMF) for a +16 CMB. He would have to roll a 5 or higher to grapple. In fact, he just has to roll 5 once and then not auto-fail on two more attempts and the drider becomes helpless. New grapple is OP.

Whoops, my mistake. I attributed the legs bonus on trip checks to grapple checks. Yeah, I suppose that doesn't change anything then.

[Malfus]

I actually used a monk (tetori/Qinggong) in a theoretical match with a Tarrasque (CMB 57 grapple, CMD 66). As a Tetori, I can have a CMB of 20(*BAB*)+10(STR)+5(AoMF)+4(Grab)+2(ig)+1(wf(us)) for a base of 42 CMB in a grapple. As a Qinggong I take True Strike in place of wholeness of body, allowing me to add 20 to my CMB as a standard action (62). Which means I only have to roll an 4 or higher to grapple the Tarrasque.
First round would consist of Standard to cast True Strike, and using the rest of my actions to ready myself for the Tarrasque's approach.
Round 2, Tarrasque is upon me, I allowed him to grapple me with his bite, so that I can as a move action reverse the grapple, standard action to cast true strike again, and swift action pin the tarrasque.
At this point, I just have to avoid letting the tarrasque break my pin, then the 3rd round I cast true strike as a standard, swift action up my AC by 4 (dodge), then tie up the tarrasque as a move action with a 20(base for tie up)+20(*BAB*)+10(base for CMD)+10(STR)+5(DEX)+10(monk AC WIS)+4(dodge)=79 CMD for the tarrasque to beat. Meaning, I have tied up the Tarrasque and it cannot escape (if I somehow found ropes strong enough to hold it that is).

EDIT:Forgot to add in the grab bonus

[tom jim]

Malfus wrote:

I actually used a monk (tetori/Qinggong) in a theoretical match with a Tarrasque (CMB 57 grapple, CMD 66). As a Tetori, I can have a CMB of 20(*BAB*)+10(STR)+5(AoMF)+4(Grab)+2(ig)+1(wf(us)) for a base of 42 CMB in a grapple. As a Qinggong I take True Strike in place of wholeness of body, allowing me to add 20 to my CMB as a standard action (62). Which means I only have to roll an 4 or higher to grapple the Tarrasque.

First round would consist of Standard to cast True Strike, and using the rest of my actions to ready myself for the Tarrasque's approach.
Round 2, Tarrasque is upon me, I allowed him to grapple me with his bite, so that I can as a move action reverse the grapple, standard action to cast true strike again, and swift action pin the tarrasque.
At this point, I just have to avoid letting the tarrasque break my pin, then the 3rd round I cast true strike as a standard, swift action up my AC by 4 (dodge), then tie up the tarrasque as a move action with a 20(base for tie up)+20(*BAB*)+10(base for CMD)+10(STR)+5(DEX)+10(monk AC WIS)+4(dodge)=79 CMD for the tarrasque to beat. Meaning, I have tied up the Tarrasque and it cannot escape (if I somehow found ropes strong enough to hold it that is).

EDIT:Forgot to add in the grab bonus

My understanding is that a grapple is not performed with the 'unarmed strike weapon' if you will, meaning that neither the AoMF nor WF:US will aid in your CMB to grapple. You can take WF:Grapple and there is another +2 from greater grapple (which stacks with improved grapple) for a net loss of 3, taking your CMB down to 39 for grapple, 59 under true strike. This requires a roll of 7 to initiate a grapple.

The concentration check for casting true strike while grappled (since it is a spell-like ability) is DC = 10 + 1(lvl) + 57(tarresque grapple cmb) = 68. This is probably not doable and I am relatively certain that a natural 20 doesn't succeed on a concentration check, so there is a zero percent chance of passing this.

Greater grapple allows you to maintain a grapple as a move action, but not to reverse a grapple as a move action. Rapid grappler also activates when greater grapple activates, meaning it also only works when you are maintaining a grapple, not reversing a grapple.

Finally, the DC to escape a pin is equal to 20 + CMB not CMD, putting the DC at 20 + 59 = 79 if you miraculously get true strike on yourself while grappling the Tarrasque or 59 otherwise.

For this to work at all, we need to make the concentration check. You use your monk level as caster level (20), combat casting (4), trait for (2), you use WIS as your casting stat, so base 16 + 5 inherent + 6 enhance = 27 for a WIS = (8). This puts concentration at 20+4+2+8 = 34 with the DC of 68. For a 50% chance of success we need to find a 23 bonus to concentration somewhere.

The two problems with the plan are 1) we don't have a way of casting true strike while grappling yet and 2) letting the Tarrasque grapple us won't work because we can only use GG and RG when we are maintaining a grapple, not reversing it.

[truesidekick]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

4th level MM Monk... 4d8 HD with 4*con mod hit points... Assiming 14 Con, which is pretty generous given the need for str, dex, and wis as well... you get 8 (1st HD) +13.5 (4.5*3, average of the other 3d8) +8 (4*2; con mod) = 29.5 hp, on average. 4 more if using favored class for hp.

It's amazing the monk was still standing after that single hit. Regardless, the fact that the cleric nearly killed the MM in a single hit while he was doing his thing for 2+ rounds really undercuts your whole "MM is beastly!" message...

oh no MM is still beastly, his build is just based on grapple instead of dirty trick meets improved trip.

blind the cleric, prone the cleric, twf the cleric round 2, bye bye cleric.

[Derwalt]

Remember the MM gets to add his Wisdom bonus to one of his CMB checks as a swift action on lvl 5. This makes him able to "double dip" for his CMB bonus, adding both strength and wisdom.

Throw in a Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone in a Way Finder (+2 CMB/CMD), and give him a weapon with the "dueling" property (there are two of these properties - I'm referring to the one that adds to CMB) - and his CMB is through the roof.

I'm pretty certain a Lore Warden can easier get a higher CMB - but not as early as 5th lvl, I should think. Also the MM gets a bonus "flurry maneuver" every time he makes a full attack (albeit giving all his maneuvers a -2 modifier).

[3.5 Loyalist]

Yeah, grapplers can take a lot of casters out, something many do not prepare for!

I've ran games for grapplers before, they can be very strong.

[Malfus]

tom jim wrote:

stuff

From what I understand, you use your hands to grapple, and as a monk, I have weaponized hands, and as a tetori, I have a grab that applies to my unarmed attacks. That aside, there is argument about whether or not AoMF should apply, so fine, let's say it doesn't. I instead spend my money on a cracked pale green ioun stone, a flawed pale green ioun stone, and 2 more inherent strength (I only bought +1 in the calculation). That leaves me at the same CMB I was at before.

Now, as far as spell-like abilities go, I was unaware that they needed concentration checks, so I cede that there is no way for me to use the qinggong true strike during the grapple with said tarrasque. Also, my usage of move actions was incorrect. This will require a closer examination to correctly grapple a tarrasque, but I know it can be done without taking a full-attack. For now, back to the design board.

[hogarth]

3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Yeah, grapplers can take a lot of casters out, something many do not prepare for!

I've ran games for grapplers before, they can be very strong.

For sure. A dedicated grappler can be pretty impressive against man-sized foes, Maneuver Master or not.