Alright I will try to be brief, since you do have a bit of a complex build. You do not get +2 on cmb with a trip weapons. You do get masterwork abilites and pluses with weapons that trip also.
You cannot flurry with high attack with a melee 2x. So no +13 attack followed by +13 with the same weapon. This followes the flurry rules update.
In my opinion seems like a fun build till CMD's get higher or you fight spiders or centipedes.
I would attempt to really look at all your ac bonus's. Likely the case is very situational. I would not include any fighting styles ac in the write up since it would need to be activated. Same with fighing defensivley since it would really lower your CMB as well. You should also list your touch ac. I am at a loss at your dodge and insight bonus. But your probably right with them.
That beeing said at level 7 fighters and clerics can push 30's but with a Low touch. I would never fight defensivly since your cmb is a bit low. Unless you don't realize what happens when you fail a trip attack by 10 or more.
Everything looks right in AC.
CMB takes attack bonus penalties as well. Your routine is +13/+13/+8 if you're tripping-- the first attack, the flurry attack, and then the iterative that takes a -5. If you were normal attacking, it'd be full/full/full-5, and that "-5 penalty" for an iterative carries over to CMB checks.
I have taken Ki Throw, Improved Ki Throw, and Greater Bull Rush.
Your feats are are likely illegal, however.
Ki Throw as a non-bonus feat requires: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike. You can take it as a bonus feat at monk level 10 with no prerequisites.
Improved Ki Throw as a non-bonus feat requires: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Ki Throw. You can take it as a bonus feat at monk level 14 with no prerequisites.
Greater Bull Rush as a non-bonus feat requires: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, BAB +6, Str 13. You can never take it as a monk bonus feat.
You need all of the prerequisites' prerequisites to have a feat, not just the prerequisites. A fighter 1/monk 6 has BAB +5 (monk +4/fight +1) so you can't have greater bull rush.
As for the rest of what you have said, are you saying that the -4 on attack rolls while fighting defensively include combat maneuver checks? Is that why you are saying that fighting defensively would reduce the CMB significantly? Simularly, you are sayng that numerical bonuses to attack rolls placed on the weapons increase the CMB checks?
Yes.
You need all of the prerequisites' prerequisites to have a feat, not just the prerequisites.
Where is this stated. I see this alot on the boards and everyone ingores when i ask so I'll ask again.
Where (and please either link to or cite page and book) is it ever said that you need previous feats prereqs if they are a prereq of a feat.In fact Ki Throw only list improved trip and IUS so having those would be the only things you need.
You need all of the prerequisites' prerequisites to have a feat, not just the prerequisites.Where is this stated. I see this alot on the boards and everyone ingores when i ask so I'll ask again.
Let's say you have 3 feats. A, B, and C.
C requires B, and B requires A.
It's based off the principle that if you don't meet A's prequisites, you lose access to B, and since you lose access to B, you thus lose access to C.
It's not explicitly spelled out in the rules, it requires careful logic to interpret correctly and to use correctly. And it is used used far, far too often. You do NOT, for example, need combat expertise to take a feat, bonus or not, if you have gained the prerequisite feat from a source that allows you to ignore prerequisites.
So lets start with my trip attempts. As read in the Core Book, the Monk uses his Monk Level instead of his BaB when determining CMB checks. So, for me, this would be (6+3)= +9.
My Chain is a Trip weapon, so I get an additional +2 to Trip attempts, taking that number to +11.
Improved Trip also gives a +2 bonus to trip attempts, so that goes to +13.
Does that sound right so far?
Actually, you are selling yourself short. Your CMB should be 10: 1 (Fighter BAB) + (Monk levels) + 3 (STR bonus). Maneuver Training specifically tells you to add BAB from other classes normally. With Improved Trip that should be 12 for trip attempts.
Ki Throw reguires Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike. As long as you have access to those you should be fine. Improved Ki Throw needs Improved Bull Rush which you can chose as your monk's 6th level bonus feat. You could then take Improved Ki Throw as your regular 7th level feat.
You only need to meet the prerequisites of a particular feat. If you gain a feat because of a class ability that lets you ignore prerequisites, you still have the feat. Robb Smith is correct. If you gain feat B in his analogy without having to meet it prerequisites, you can chose feat C as long as you meet all other prerequisites of it.
There are cases where the prerequisites of earlier feats from a chain are re-introduced with later feats. These are obviously meant to restrict classes that gain bonus feats without prerequisites. For example, Improved Trip needs Combat Expertise which in turn needs INT 13. If you somehow get Combat Expertise without having INT 13 you can chose Improved Trip in a regular feat slot. But the next step in that chain, Greater Trip has INT 13 as a prerequisite again, so you would either need to get in some way that ignores prerequisites or gain INT 13.
If you look through the feat list you will notice more of that. It allows classes with non-prerequisite bonus feats some leeway in choosing feats, but still restricts them on the higher feats.
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One thing that no one else has mentioned. Do you have at least 3 ranks in acrobatics? (I'm assuming yes, what monk who uses crane style wouldn't.) Then you're missing another AC.
Special: If you have 3 or more ranks in Acrobatics, you
gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when f ighting defensively
instead of the usual +2, and a +6 dodge bonus to AC when
taking the total defense action instead of the usual +4.
So defensively you'd be getting +2 from fighting defensively, +1 acrobatics, +1 crane style, +1 whip. And the fighting defensively is dodge bonus.
The other thing I would add with regard to your AC is that with just the magic items you've described, you're right at the designated wealth by level for 7th. Unless you have no other magic stuff, you're a little high. Which doesn't mean anything's wrong, but you've put almost all your monetary resources into having a high ac, and all your feat resources into being good at tripping so that, combined with your higher than average rolled stats, are going to account for higher than normal abilities.
It's sort of like saying "Hey guys, my 1st level fighter has a natural 20 str, a +2 greatsword, and a +4 belt of giant strength. He seems to be hitting a lot and doing a lot of damage when he power attacks. How come?" Of course that's an exaggeration, but the point still stands.
And incidentally, the point of a "trip" weapon is that normally when you fail a trip attempt by 10 or more, you get tripped, and if you use a trip weapon, you can drop it instead of getting tripped.
OP, I would'nt go to any extreme and think you are not to at fault with choosing a single incorrect feat, which you probably will get at a later level.
I do think that your character is infact pretty mechanically hard to use, and that is not a bad thing.
So I wanted to also say using FoB you cannot use 2 high attacks with your single manufactured weapon weapon.
I would aslo caution about saying you always have crane style active this in not the case, EVERY combat will start with this style not being in effect, since it is an instant action you have to activate it. Also there are times with action economy you may not want to activate it. The same with fighting defensivly.
If I were you as a player I would have pre printed index cards with a single effects going. Say one that would let you turn on crane style and the additions to AC. and another with a condtion of fighting defensivly... ETC... I would have all effects and conditions on your character sheet with these mechanics removed.
I often use this stlye of player aid with my Inquisitor for Judgements spells fighting defensivly, bane. It gets easier with practice.
Another thing, you can't trip a foe, then as a AOO attempt another trip when he starts standing.
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Well, you CAN...
But an aoo occurs before the action that triggered it. So you could trip again, but since at the moment of your aoo your target is already tripped, you won't do much. Then the movement finishes resolving, and your opponent is now standing.
However, what about the Stand Still feat?
Then, the enemy could take the rest of his actions, but not take a move action. And standing up is a move action. So that should prevent him from getting back up.
Eh, the wording of stand still though... I don't know if that would actually be a legal use of it.
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I don't think I saw this in the conversation anywhere, but FoB imposes a -2 penalty on all attacks (since it uses the TWF mechanic). Wouldn't this penalty also apply to the trip attacks? I see the math as follows.
+1 (fighter level) +6 (monk levels) +3 (Str) +2 (Improved Trip) -2 (FoB)
+10/+10/+5
Of course, the monk is being re-built from the ground up at this point due to some feat issues, but I thought it odd that no one included the -2 penalty for FoB.
Well, you CAN...
But an aoo occurs before the action that triggered it. So you could trip again, but since at the moment of your aoo your target is already tripped, you won't do much. Then the movement finishes resolving, and your opponent is now standing.
However, what about the Stand Still feat?
Then, the enemy could take the rest of his actions, but not take a move action. And standing up is a move action. So that should prevent him from getting back up.
Eh, the wording of stand still though... I don't know if that would actually be a legal use of it.
This doesn't work, for a number of reasons. First, you must provoke the AoO by leaving a threatened square via movement, not just any AoO. Second, it stops the foe's movement for the turn. It doesn't prevent them from using the rest of their actions, just from moving square to square with them.
Well basically it says you are flurring as if TWF. I guess a recent new rules clarification just came up, readressing it. Since some players would say use a magical weapon and full flurry with it. Bypassing the cost restrictions from TwF of not buying a second weapon or alternativley not buying the amulet of mighty fists.
For the tripping it is called a chain, it was erratad a year or so. Basically trip built fighters would use reach weapons and prevent a npc from standing up, by tripping again.
I personally have a monk/fighter that uses a monk weapon called sickle and chain, kar(words)sami? I went lore warden and kensie monk. But I lack the flurry and have TwF. If you rebuild your monk I would check those 2 combos out. If you want advice you can PM me directly by selecting my profile.
As to Sweater Golem the -2 is figured into the flurry and flurry goes up based on monk levels instead of his medium BaB, if I remeber correctly.
I don't think I saw this in the conversation anywhere, but FoB imposes a -2 penalty on all attacks (since it uses the TWF mechanic). Wouldn't this penalty also apply to the trip attacks? I see the math as follows.
+1 (fighter level) +6 (monk levels) +3 (Str) +2 (Improved Trip) -2 (FoB)
+10/+10/+5
Of course, the monk is being re-built from the ground up at this point due to some feat issues, but I thought it odd that no one included the -2 penalty for FoB.
<snipped previous comment>
I don't know. It seems like it might, but it doesn't explicitly say that you get a -2. Eh, with the way things have been going I woudn't be surprised. Perhaps that is why they created the Maneuver Master archetype? Doesn't he get give up FoB for CMB checks instead?
Yes, but Flurry of Blows also uses full BAB, so that may adjust the CMB up rather than down.
Well basically it says you are flurring as if TWF. I guess a recent new rules clarification just came up, readressing it. Since some players would say use a magical weapon and full flurry with it. Bypassing the cost restrictions from TwF of not buying a second weapon or alternativley not buying the amulet of mighty fists.
Hardly broken, though, as the monk does not get to use FoB as a prerequisite for other TWF-feat tree feats. It's a case where they are made to suck up the disadvantages of the TWF effect without reaping any of the advantages. When you compare the monk's single weapon against two weapons, that difference in cost is worth only +1. The other combat types then have their own schtick, like favoured enemy, smite eveil, weapon training, or rage on top of their TWFing. The monk has...flurry of blows, and that's it.
If it was that broken, why the Zen Archer who specifically flurries with a single weapon?
I personally have a monk/fighter that uses a monk weapon called sickle and chain, kar(words)sami? I went lore warden and kensie monk. But I lack the flurry and have TwF. If you rebuild your monk I would check those 2 combos out. If you want advice you can PM me directly by selecting my profile.
Kusari-gama, a ninja weapon for taking down armoured samurai.
Dabbler, with flurry it states in core that it acts as if TWF, aside from people playing against the rules it also tilts the WBL curve to favor a monk, it also allows for enchanced manuevers seen on monk weapon item descriptions. As well as bypassing DR easier.
As far as other combat classes these classes do not receive good save progression or TWF at first level, or
Zen archer is limited to using flurry.
This is really off topic I think you would be better served asking a developer. Since it already has been addressed aks your home based GM to allow rules disparities
This is really off topic I think you would be better served asking a developer. Since it already has been addressed aks your home based GM to allow rules disparities
This is true, it is off-topic, post sent you over the private channel. The whole FoB/TWF and what it amounts to is still under discussion anyway.
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FoB imposes a -2 penalty on all attacks (since it uses the TWF mechanic).
Note that it only shows that in the chart. The text simply says that when usinf FoB's a Monk's BAB is equal to his monk level.
The most recent FAQ on the matter would seem to support this;
Monk: The monk rules for flurry state, "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1?A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.
—Sean K Reynolds, 09/10/10Back to Top
I've always heard/read that in any dispute between text & table the text trumps table... My GM doesn't factor in the -2 penalty for FoB and he allows Monk's to flurry with a temple sword wielded in 2 hands. We've played this way for sometime and it doesn't make the Monk overpowered in any way shape or form. My Switch hitter Ranger & the Druid's animal companion still dish out more damage per round then the Monk.
Perhaps somewhat surprisingly the Monk has one of the best AC's in the party - but that has nothing to do with FoB...
I've always heard/read that in any dispute between text & table the text trumps table... My GM doesn't factor in the -2 penalty for FoB and he allows Monk's to flurry with a temple sword wielded in 2 hands. We've played this way for sometime and it doesn't make the Monk overpowered in any way shape or form. My Switch hitter Ranger & the Druid's animal companion still dish out more damage per round then the Monk.
Perhaps somewhat surprisingly the Monk has one of the best AC's in the party - but that has nothing to do with FoB...
Monks having a good Ac isn't hard, but having a good AC and dishing out meaningful damage combined is rare for a monk, if not impossible.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5drg?Attacking-with-a-weapon#19
About half way down the updated views about FoB. S Reynolds.
There was a contest where at 20lv and unlimited gold which class would have the highest ac. A monk won with near 100 and 60 some touch been awhile so I can't remeber the numbers.
The monk I am playing now. Doesn't hit hard at all but is geared toward grappling and tripping.
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I think the factor there was 'unlimited gold', though I agree monks can have a great AC. However, their hit points are sub-standard, so even with comparable AC a monk will be worse off than a full BAB class in a stand-up fight.
The monk in the original post has 24,000 gp worth of defensive items and has an AC of 26 (with an additional +3 when fighting defensively). That doesn't seem outrageous to me. That's comparable to a character with 12 Dex using +2 full plate armor and a +2 heavy shield (except much more expensive).
Note that the wealth by level suggested in the core rulebook for a 7th level PC is 23,500 gp in total, so that's a very heavy investment in defensive items compared to a "standard" PC.
SoWell flurry of blows allows allot of the TwF feats for free. Additionally the Monk class is very mechanically different from all the other class. Basically more defensive built, DpR comparrisons never really stack up, since the monk is so defensively built.
First they have good saves, then they have evasion. Then they get Ki which allows more oppurtunity for attacks, ac speed etc. They have higher speed. As well as a stunning fist.
Shurikens for range, monk weapons for with allot of added descriptors trip, grapple etc.
The winner is touch AC, with so many ways to boost for a monk. Allot less fear from range touch attacks or incorpreal creatures. So if the OP went with headband wis+2 and belt dex +2 and bracers armor +1 not +3. He would have the same ac higher: touch, saves, init, CMD, stunning fist DC's, Ki and skills.
Allot of classes rely on cloaks or resistance to raise their saves, as well as traits. While a monk could use them they probably won't seek them out as a priority. Allot of melee class use alternative material for armor for less ar check penalties and higher movement as well as boots for movement. For the monk at this level he has +20 ft that is similar to having armor training or really expensive armor in addition to boots. Soon in monk leves it will be like having expeditious retreat always on. For a player with base spead 30 this movement equates to being able to climb if the can pass the DC no ar pen. A total 25 feet as a full round or 25 feet if they risk the dc being raised by 5 as a single move, by spending a ki on movement this raises to 35 repectively.
Looks like the OP has +8 ref/will +7 fort?. For HP considerations he has much less to fear than most classes. With the exception of full round attacks, at this point he can burn a Ki for ac if needed. Or attempt to stun the enemy will dc, 16.
So for fun who would win between a monk or fighter in a regular 1v1 fighter or a barb, rogue, bard depends on the player.
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Benefit: On a successful unarmed trip attack against a
target your size or smaller, you may throw the target prone
in any square you threaten rather than its own square.
This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity,
and you cannot throw the creature into a space occupied
by other creatures.
Nope, sorry mate. Unarmed only.
SoWell flurry of blows allows allot of the TwF feats for free. Additionally the Monk class is very mechanically different from all the other class. Basically more defensive built, DpR comparrisons never really stack up, since the monk is so defensively built.
Problem is, if they cannot actually do anything to the enemy, all that defence means nothing. Even if they get an AC on par with the fighter, attacks scale faster as you go up levels/CRs, so they will still take the same number of hits as said fighter, which their lower hit points cannot afford.
The monk doesn't have spells or other abilities to hinder, harm or neutralise foes other than hitting them in some way or another, so hitting them HAS to be effective. We're looking for ways of getting the monk's DPR up to something close to the fighter's before the fighter gets his weapon training and other feats factored in. That way the fighter still rules, but the monk can be effective.
I do agree that one advantage of the monk is that they are defensively very good, the problem is they need an effective offence for it to have any effect on the enemy that has problems hurting them.
More of a comment... but why take a vow of chastity? You're basically saying "No, I don't want any healing".
Worst case, the Cleric could wait for the monk to go to sleep, and sneak in and heal him in his sleep. Since the monk has to knowingly break the vow, it shouldn't break it.
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It was ruled that you can make a CMB check - trip, sunder, disarm, etc, with any weapon provided the weapon type allows you to do so (can't sunder with a shield bash, etc.)
under the new ruling, weapons with the trip or disarm feature only allow you the option of drpoping that weapon on a failed check instead of you taking the penalty.
you can use a +5 longsword to trip and still get a +5 bonus, despite it not being a "tripping" weapon.
Just a side note, you can't flurry and fight defensively. You can either flurry, OR standard/full-round attack defensively.
It was ruled that you can make a CMB check - trip, sunder, disarm, etc, with any weapon provided the weapon type allows you to do so (can't sunder with a shield bash, etc.)
Why can't you sunder with a shield bash?
under the new ruling, weapons with the trip or disarm feature only allow you the option of drpoping that weapon on a failed check instead of you taking the penalty.
When you use a disarm weapon, you get a +2 bonus on Combat Maneuver Checks to disarm an enemy.
When you fail a disarm by 10+, you drop the weapon you were using to disarm, regardless of whether it has the disarm property.
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It was ruled that you can make a CMB check - trip, sunder, disarm, etc, with any weapon provided the weapon type allows you to do so (can't sunder with a shield bash, etc.)Why can't you sunder with a shield bash?
under the new ruling, weapons with the trip or disarm feature only allow you the option of drpoping that weapon on a failed check instead of you taking the penalty.When you use a disarm weapon, you get a +2 bonus on Combat Maneuver Checks to disarm an enemy.
When you fail a disarm by 10+, you drop the weapon you were using to disarm, regardless of whether it has the disarm property.
might be able to, i don't know shield limitations while wielded as a weapon. just wanted to give a 'for instance', but may have given one in error in my hastiness.
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Just a side note, you can't flurry and fight defensively. You can either flurry, OR standard/full-round attack defensively.
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: "You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action."
Flurry of Blows (Ex): "Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action."