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Hi
Recently played with an 11th lvl Bard, really tricked out for UMD.
He had a Ring of Revelation, so he could UMD and Channel Pos Energy as a 20th Lvl Oracle!
I can't really see how - since technically the rings themselves have CL listed.
Surely he could only Channel Energy (using UMD) as an Oracle of the listed CL of the crafter of the ring?
Thinking about getting this ring for one of my chars, presumably I'll be limited to channelling as per Oracle CL as I mentioned?
(My char is Sorc 4/Hospitaler4/Drag Disc 1, so currently channels for D6).
Thanks
Paul H
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Hi
Saw that, but isn't that the entire purpose of UMD?
Having checked the UMD rules (should have checked before - oops my bad), he needs to get 40+ on UMD to get that 20th lvl Oracle ability. Not sure how he gets that. 9 Ranks, plus 3 for Class Skill, Skill Focus for plus 3, Charisma 22 for extra +6. Trait +1. Total +22.
You can't take 20 on UMD right? (Might be able to take 10 as part of class ability).
Thanks
Paul H
From my understanding the phrase "The ring has no effect if worn by a non-Oracle" circumvents any other class from using despite UMD or other. It's a class specific item.
A ring of revelation is a divine item attuned to a particular oracular mystery and containing a revelation associated with that mystery (see the oracle class description). While wearing the ring, an oracle has access to that revelation and may use it as if she had it as a normal class feature. The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the ring, and must meet the level requirements (if any) of the revelation itself; for example, a ring of revelation (combat healer) is only usable by an oracle of at least 7th level with the battle mystery. If the oracle already has that revelation and the revelation gives an ability with a limited number of uses per day, the oracle can use that ability one additional time per day. The ring has no effect if worn by a non-oracle.A lesser ring of revelation contains a revelation that has no level prerequisite or a prerequisite that is less than 6th level. A greater ring of revelation contains a revelation that requires the oracle to be 7th level or higher. A superior ring of revelation contains a revelation that requires the oracle to be 11th level or higher.
The emphasis is mine --- this negates any other class that does not have a mystery -- Oracle is the only class with the mystery class ability. He would have to have a rank of oracle to use the ring
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"Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above)." ---> UMD
He can emulate the class feature to use item, not to gain a new class feature.
For example, if item requests oracle class to be activated for some purpose he can activate it.
On a related note, that of using UMD to emulate being a class, if I recall correctly, this is still a contentious issue.
The question: "Can I use UMD to emulate being a CLASS?"
In my opinion, by a strict reading of the rules the answer is no. The UMD skill says "Emulate a Class Feature" not "Emulate a Class."
If you look at every class write-up, under the Table of class features is a header titled "Class Features." It is my belief that you can use UMD to emulate having one of these features but NOT actually BEING the class itself.
In the original post, the user of the ring, a bard, used the ring to cast as a 20th level oracle. Unless this was a home game this would be impossible as per the item description, you have to be a 20th level life oracle and have access to the final revelation.
Explain to me how a bard is a 20th level life oracle.
In addition are the words that the ring has no effect if worn by a non-oracle. In what universe is a bard considered an oracle.
Even if the bard took a level in oracle, he still would not be able to use the ring to channel as a 20th level oracle as he would never be a 20th level oracle.
Using UMD is not valid in this instance. Because the bard is not an oracle, plain and simple. Even if he wants to use UMD he still cannot use the ring as he does not have access to the oracle class feature of mystery and if he does have a level in oracle to bypass that he is only allowed to use revelations that he normally has access to.
I have experienced this item combo before. There is a rules thread out there that covers this. I don't know how current it I am on this specific rule.
Thea has the meat of it, if I remeber correctly the bard I played with decided he would go with a single level of Oracle...
I have experienced this item combo before. There is a rules thread out there that covers this. I don't know how current it I am on this specific rule.
Thea has the meat of it, if I remeber correctly the bard I played with decided he would go with a single level of Oracle...
And he would only have access to level 1 revelations... not the uber 20th level revelation
I think the bards player was basically cheating. regardless of the issue of using the ring at all the I'm pretending to be lvl 20 part makes it pretty clear.
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I'm going to disagree CatBunnyGnome, per RAW, UMD let's you be a X Level of the class you are trying to emulate. In the example of PFSRD, a Oracle (Battle Mystery). The ring of revelation let's an "Oracle" use that revelation. The oracle didn't need to have that revelation, just the appropriate class feature on their list. So, by RAW, yes, you could use it because the item is what's allowing it. It's not boosting an ability, it's granting it.
UMD circumvents all "Can't use if X" as long as you roll well enough. A character with a high enough UMD could be a 20th level Oracle of whatever if he rolls a 40 on his UMD skill check. That's what the UMD skill says, he is an Effective X class.
From Paizo PRD:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
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Hi
To my mind the 'Mystery' is a class feature being emulated, However UMD is specific about the way your 'effective' level is worked out.
Same way a Bard can emulate the class feature of being able to cast Bless Weapon, and so use a wand.
But still -20th level? Huh? In combat as well? How can an 11th lvl Bard get 40+ on UMD in combat? Guess that's my real question.
Thanks
Paul H
Dan, I kind of understand what you're saying, however, I still side with the fact that since the description of the ring stats that it has no effect if worn by a non-oracle that even with UMD the ring is still not going to work as the bard is not an oracle.
Being able to emulate a class ability does not grant you the mystery power and certainly does not grant the ability to use a 20th level mystery ability.
In the example given from the prd; the oracle still has to be eligible to use the ability. If I only have one level of battle oracle, the only revelations I have access to are:
Battlecry
Battlefield Clarity
Maneuver Mastery
Resiliency
Surprising Charge
Weapon Mastery
Without the ring I only have access to one of these revelations. With the ring I have access to 2 of the revelations. But only those for which I quality.
I think there should be a developer answer on how the Emulate rules work with an item when it says specifically that it doesn't work if used by non-class x
This was a real rules savy player, and along that also used the Word Striker ability. I would personally rule that UMD would not work in this manner.
At this point like many rules discussion's, this thread has popped up allong with many others on the main site, rules discussion. So I would encourage a search savy person to do the due dillegence, since this isn't PFS specific and has been addressed aleardy.
I would again rule with Thea's view, and put the burden of proof on the player.
+6 skill focus +11 ranks +3 class skill +10 competence + 6 charisma = needs a 4 or better. A single other feat can make it a 2 or better, and dangerously curious 1 or better.
All that doesn't negate the fact that you have to have access to the ability level. A 9th level bard doesn't have access to the 20th level revelation, at best he would have access to the level 1 revelation(s).
And a 9th level bard cannot have 11 ranks in a skill, the max he could have is 9...
Chris, I think this thread is the one to which you are referring and there was no definitive answer or conclusion gained from what I saw
Shadow my apologies for reading wrong
I looked over that thread I think it was the one I looked up, I guess if people flag it we could get an official ruling.
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I looked over that thread I think it was the one I lucked up, I guess if people flag it we could get an official ruling.
Probably the easiest way would be to go ask James Jacobs. I personally think it's clear, but others don't. So there must be some ambiguity or confusion. Developers have stated in the past unless they see it as ambiguous, they'll stay out of it, regardless of how many times it's flagged for a FAQ.
IE James Jacobs refuses to answer any stealth/perception questions because he feels it's perfect the way it is, despite thousands of posts saying it isn't. I side with him on his opinion of the example, but others disagree.
*Wanders off to the JJ thread*
*Wanders back and waits for a response*
UMD lets you emulate a class feature, not a class. Since the ring says it will not work for non-oracles, then UMD is useless for non-oracles. If the ring instead said you had to have access to oracle mysteries, then you could use UMD to try and activate it. But even if it did, you cannot emulate a required character/class level with UMD, so it would still be useless to a non-oracle. And if you take a level of oracle, you could still only use UMD to attempt revelations of 1st level because you cannot fake a required level with UMD.
I think I was missing some of that in the book, as it seems the wording has changed a bit, or people are not quoting it exactly, in my 5th printing copy. And I was more saying you cannot specifically fake a required level with UMD. Getting a fake level in a class is a side effect of emulating a class feature, not something you can do independent of that.
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James,
Over at the PFS section there is some confusion on how the UMD Skill works in regards to emulating a class. The question was targeted at Ring of Revelation. The argument is can a non-oracle utilize the ring to gain temporary access to a revelation with a sufficient roll of UMD?Some argue that no, you have to be an Oracle, and if you're not UMD won't help you.
Others say that UMD circumvents those standard preventions.
Use Magic Device will let you trick an item into thinking you're a different class... but it does not grant the POWERS of that class. The way the ring of revelation is worded pretty much means you HAVE to be an Oracle (aka you have to meet minimum level requirements in class abilities granted by the oracle class, since the powers granted directly affect that ability rather than grant you NEW abilities). Furthermore, the ring specifically says that it has no effect if worn by a non-oracle.
SO. Best case scenario, you could Use Magic Device to trick the ring into activating, but if you don't actually have class levels in oracle, the ring will do nothing more than take up a ring slot for you.
Ok, so I'm settled.
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Hi
I didn't realise that this was such a can of Worms!
The feature it was emulating (channel energy) is usable by 1st lvl Oracles (Life Mystery).
My point was that though I might persoanlly allow it in a home game, it is a tad broken, and wasn't sure if there was a ruling or clarification for PFS. (Or indeed, if PFS had an errata I'd missed).
The other thread listed seems to be the proper place for debate. (Thanks PFCGB)
Thanks everyone for the input
Paul H