Hey everyone,
So, I'm running a game and I got one of players wanting to play a primarily combat-oriented druid, expecting to do most her fighting in wild shape. I'm unfortunately not too experienced in the finer points of wild shape and combat; I know wild-shaped attacks are natural attacks, but am not perfectly clear on which feats affect those and how?
So, any suggestions for combat feat progressions and any clarifications on which combat feats do/do not affect natural attacks would be greatly appreciated.
(Here's an example: Belier's Bite feat requires Imp. Unarmed Attack; since Natural Attacks do not seem to require I.U.A. to avoid attacks of opportunity, can they be coupled with Belier's Bite for that extra bleed damage? What about Weapon Focus etc? What about monster-feats such as Improved Natural Attacks? HALPZ!)
~Andro
I am running a similiar druid, so here's my take.
Stick with feats that are not form specific. Taking something like improved natural attack requires DM approval as, strictly speaking, you would need it for each form's every attack. Taking "bigger cat claws" wouldn't help you if you are in a form with only a bite and may not help when you switch to another form with claws. Weapon focus is probably going to work the same. (unless the GM says otherwise)
I have power attack- it works in all forms. Vital strike is the same.
Multiattack, if the GM says OK, is a good feat for use in forms with a secondary attacks. Any of the standard feats for weapons would work for wild shape as most can be taken for natural attacks as well. Just remember, it's not realy worth taking a feat like lunge if you can just use another form with reach instead.
Don't forget natural spelcasting for spells while wild shaping, but I'm guessing that's a given. There is a feat for speaking normally in wildshape, which makes the wildshape scout much more viable as you can report what you find without going back to humanoid.
Natural attacks do not let you skip unarmed strike as a preq. There is a feat called feral combat that lets you use a natural attack and add any effect you have that has unarmed combat as a preq. It requires you first take weapon focus in that natural attack. (see above for problem with that)
Don't forget feats like extend to get your spell to last longer, even if your focus is on wildshape not combat.
Check out Treatmonk's Guide to Druids, it has a section on the feral druid which should answer most of your questions- just remember, it hasn't been updated to include anythin past the core rules.
Start with Treantmonks guide and go from there.
Also can the player not work it out for these selves? I would never expect my GM to tell me how to build a character... :)
Well, in general I agree - alas, this player's a thorough newbie, and getting a bit intimidated by the mass of options and choices; I'm mostly looking at something to offer her as narrowed-down selection.
Thanks for the pointer at the Treantmonk's writeup!
Improved unarmed strike (its a pre requisite)
Feral Combat training: str +1/2 on your bites
Dragonstyle: Lets you charge/pounce if your druid goes with a form with lots of attacks
Natural spell is almost must at 5th level. The alternative is to load up on hour per level buffs and buff yourself in between shapeshifts.
What race/level is the druid in question?
Improved Natural Attack only requires that you select a form of attack such as Claw, Bite, Tail, etc. It would then apply to any form you take that has that natural attack. You should not need to take "Improved Natural Attack (Claw, Cat)" and "Improved Natural Attack (Claw, Dinosaur)." This is a silly concept.
As such, I suggest taking it, if your DM allows you to take monster feats.
Once the druid can get large enough sizes to out-reach most opponents and large base natural weapon damage dice, Flyby Attack + Vital Strike can be a pretty nasty skirmisher of sorts. Otherwise, a pouncing form is probably best. I would get Power Attack. It may often not be useful, but when it is...DR can be tough to crack for a natural weapon user. If things with DR / silver come up often, Eldritch Claws is also a nice feat that, despite the name, will benefit any natural attack. I 2nd taking Improved Natural Attack. If doing pouncer, I'd get claw, if doing a Vital Strike build, I'd get it on bite. Mutiattack might also be useful if making primarily a pouncer.
The way Multiattack works in PF makes it pretty useless. It lowers the penalty on secondary natural attacks and there just aren't that many of those. It pretty much just applies to hooves, tentacles and tail slaps. Also the foreclaws of the dienonychus. Your kitty form's claws and bites are all primary.
Thank you everyone for replies!
In response to some querries: Character is Gnome Druid / Lion Shaman 1 - I know, gnome is hardly optimal for a feral-melee-druid, but game is more role-playing that min-max heavy, so that shouldn't penalize the player too much. Relevant stats are 16, 14, 14, 14, 16, 12 (4D6 happens :P )
Regarding feats, I've decided to do a bit of handwaving/houseruling since party is somewhat melee-light, and I don't want that to cripple them overmuch; so here's the Feat progression I'm considering recommending to the player (I'm ignoring a couple of prereqs, such as +1 BAB for Weapon Focus, and Improved Unarmed Attack for Feral Combat Training):
1st : Weapon Focus : Claw
3rd : Feral Combat Training
5th : Belier's Bite
7th : Improved Natural Attack : Claw
9th : Eldritch Claws
I suspect this is not the optimal approach, but it seems fairly flavorful and hopefully player will like it. Input appreciated (just don't get on my case for waiving some prereqs ;) )
Thank you everyone for replies!
In response to some querries: Character is Gnome Druid / Lion Shaman 1 - I know, gnome is hardly optimal for a feral-melee-druid, but game is more role-playing that min-max heavy, so that shouldn't penalize the player too much. Relevant stats are 16, 14, 14, 14, 16, 12 (4D6 happens :P )
Regarding feats, I've decided to do a bit of handwaving/houseruling since party is somewhat melee-light, and I don't want that to cripple them overmuch; so here's the Feat progression I'm considering recommending to the player (I'm ignoring a couple of prereqs, such as +1 BAB for Weapon Focus, and Improved Unarmed Attack for Feral Combat Training):
1st : Weapon Focus : Claw
3rd : Feral Combat Training
5th : Belier's Bite
7th : Improved Natural Attack : Claw
9th : Eldritch ClawsI suspect this is not the optimal approach, but it seems fairly flavorful and hopefully player will like it. Input appreciated (just don't get on my case for waiving some prereqs ;) )
You'd propably be better with natural spell feat at level 5, and propably the feat that lets you speak in animal form at 7. The reason is that you have a few times per day that you can shapechange and if you can function in your animal shape (cast spells, talk to your party) you won't need to shapechange that often.
By level 8 you can be in animal form all day long if you want, but without those feats you are losing your spellcasting and making it hard on yourself to RP or you'll have to use your ability less often since you'll have to change back to human to heal buff or cast any other spell and speak
Yah, this is not much of an 'entry-level' class choice, especially going the wild shape route. You're missing Power Attack, which seems like a big deal unless the player isn't worried about damage output all that much.
The suggestions about Natural Spell and Wild Speech (from Ultimate Magic) are good ones. As much as you're building a melee specialist, being able to cast spells in form can be a game-changer given the right spell selection. And being able to talk is very nice when coordinating in combat or relaying information gained on a scouting trip without wasting a wild shape to go back to normal form to speak.
You'd propably be better with natural spell feat at level 5, and propably the feat that lets you speak in animal form at 7. The reason is that you have a few times per day that you can shapechange and if you can function in your animal shape (cast spells, talk to your party) you won't need to shapechange that often.
By level 8 you can be in animal form all day long if you want, but without those feats you are losing your spellcasting and making it hard on yourself to RP or you'll have to use your ability less often since you'll have to change back to human to heal buff or cast any other spell and speak
Ack, excellent point! I spent so much time thinking about combat, I forgot about spellcasting entirely :) Thanks Eos!
I'm personally a huge fan of Planar Wild Shape from UC. Yes, it takes two uses of Wild Shape to activate, but it can be well worth it. Resistance to Acid, Cold, and Electricity, damage reduction, darkvision, spell resistance, and the ability to Smite Evil once per day can be extremely devastating.
Powerful Shape is another interesting option. If you really like using special maneuvers, then it is worth a look. It gives a slight bump to both CMB and CMD, but more importantly it lets you use a lot of maneuvers on larger creatures than normal.