Picking a Sorceror


Advice


Okay forums, I need a deciding vote. I can't make up my mind and it's driving me nuts.

My friends and I are starting a campaign soon. The other guys have picked their roles. Party is as follows:

  • Human ranger/rogue, focused on shooting and being "skill guy."
  • Halfling Beast Rider cavalier, Order of the Dragon. Charging and front-line beef.
  • Human Cleric of Milani. Second frontline and part-time band-aid.
  • Me. The indecisive sorceror. :P Possibly token evil guy, since the rest are CG or NG. Fun evil though, not griefing evil.

    As the arcane caster of the team and only one who might be called an optimizer, I'm trying to do this right. I don't want to play a wizard or witch, because prepared casting always kind of bugs me. Oracle was considered and dropped because I felt we needed more firepower than it provided.

    So... help me out here. This is what I'm working with:

  • Core, APG, UM, UC. d20pfsrd is largely fair game, but I'd like to avoid 3pp. Acronyms are fun.
  • 25 point buy (I like 16/14/14/14/10/10)
  • Level 3, and therefore 3000 gold
  • Half-elf. Yes, humans are fantastic. I just don't want to play one.
  • No traits.

    The options I'm considering are:

  • Tattooed Sanguine to jack up necromancy caster levels. Lots of debuffs on the menu. Possible undead army later.
  • Green or Silver Draconic, maybe into Dragon Disciple. I'd prefer not to multiclass for it, though Ranger 2 is very tempting. Need more acid spells while keeping distance though.
  • Air Elemental taking Spell Focus, GSF, and Elemental Focus to jack up DCs. Stormborn/Arial might work too. Yoinked idea from the evocation optimization thread.
  • Starsoul or Void-Touched, again jacking evocation DCs as much as possible to get that bonus debuff.

    The other difficulty I'm having is balancing casting boosts like SF and survival boosts like Def Combat Training, Dodge, or Toughness. Human would make it much easier, but half-elf is my self-imposed restriction.

    Think that covered everything. So... if you were me, what would you pick?


  • I like the stormborn sorcerer.

    Sovereign Court

    If you're interested in Necromancy, have you considered the Sanguine bloodline? (UM Wildblooded Undead Bloodline) Nice and creepy. Fun for wierding out the normals.

    If you're interested in Blasty, I think Stormborn is a great idea. Particularly when you can afford an Elemental Metamagic Rod. (Turn damaging spells into Sonic damage.. virtually nothing is resistant/immune! :)


    As much as I like the DD myself, it will result in an even slower spell progression, which I understood would not be following your maxime (more firepower). Can't say much on the others.

    Ruyan.


    If you end up doing the Stormborn bloodline, Ear-piercing Scream seems like an awesome first level spell for you. Sonic damage, debuff, higher DC from bloodline.


    Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

    Also, it should be noted that Tattooed Sanguine is not a possibility. The Sanguine bloodline and the Tattooed Sorcerer both alter the first bloodline power, making that combo a no-go. I was so pumped to have a Tattooed Sanguine sorcerer until I noticed that.

    Tattooed is good for jacking up caster level if you take the Voratalo (Necromancy) tattoo, because all of your bloodline spells get another +1 to caster level. Plus you get a familiar tattoo, which can help boost any weakpoints you think you have, lke HP or initiative bonus. Sure, it's not all necromancy spells like if Tattooed Sanguine were possible, but it's still pretty good.

    I personally chose Sanguine for the self-heal 1st level power, and the flavor of my character.


    That's... an unfortunately good point, Harley. I guess I kept operating on the assumption that Wildblooded were more bloodlines. Strictly RAW, this is false. Frick.

    Let's take necromancy off the table and focus more on blowing stuff up. Stormborn was my original idea, but I somehow dissuaded myself. Would Tattooed be a good addition to the bloodline? I want to like it, but Thunderbolt is kinda cool.

    Elemental Air has the element-switching thing, which helps. Starsoul/Void-touched add some debuffs, which never hurts. Stormborn gets a bunch of sweet spells.

    How does Arial compare? Is the arcana too situational until I can make my own rain?


    overchill42 wrote:
    The other difficulty I'm having is balancing casting boosts like SF and survival boosts like Def Combat Training, Dodge, or Toughness. Human would make it much easier, but half-elf is my self-imposed restriction.

    Choose one or the other, is my advice. Unless you plan on actively seeking to get into combat, you aren't going to need to the defensive abilities so much unless the rest of the party drop the ball completely.

    Grand Lodge

    Don't sell nonhuman sorcerers short.

    Elven sorcerers have a built in bonus to spell penetration and their are certain archetypes they're practically born for.

    Hafling and Gnome sorcerers are innately +1 to hit with ray spells, and have good defensive bonuses and extra magical tricks in the case of the gnome.

    For Dragon sorcerers that want to melee, the Half-Orc and Dwarf more than make up for their charisma penalty.


    Half Orc don't take a charisma penalty anymore. And Dwarves can take the Wildblooded (Empyreal) Bloodline, so spellcasting can go on wisdom rather than charisma.


    I can vouch for Draconic Sorcerer (Green)/Dragon Disciple. You don't need to multiclass with Ranger (or anything else) unless you just really want to do it. Normally, you lose out on 9th level spells, but you trade that for increased survivability and improved bloodline powers. You also get your bloodline feats a lot sooner that way. There are some new acid spells in Ultimate Magic, too, if you haven't checked them out.

    Oh, also... that build was a half-elf.


    Supposedly, if you're just looking to be a walking nuke (i.e. just maximize damage output)...Flame Oracle pwns Sorcerer.

    http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2t84?Why-Flame-Oracle-is-the-best-blaster#0

    I *personally* am too lazy to confirm that sentiment by doing the math...but the basic arguments I've skimmed over seem plausible.

    Since the OP said they wanted to roll an Oracle anyways but the reason they discounted them was damage potential...well...I submit that thread for review.


    If you're up for playing a gnome (some aren't for some reason) and are willing to focus your spell list on illusion spells, then take the... wait for it... Arcane bloodline. No, seriously.

    Gnomes add +1 to the DC of illusion spells that they cast. Get another effective +1 for their racial Charisma buff. Eventually get +2 from a bloodline power ('School Power'). Toss on Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) for another pair of +1s to DC.

    If you've been counting, the race, the bloodline, and two feats net you a +6 to illusion DCs... and you twist the perceptions of all who oppose you, until they trust nothing to be real...

    Anyway, this probably doesn't rival some of the uber combos out there... but I've had a lot of fun stacking up the Illusion DCs this way... plus max ranks in Bluff, just to cap the concept.

    Sczarni

    For bonus points on that gnomish sorcerer, check out Effortless Trickery. It allows you to concentrate on illusion spells as a swift action. Pure fun.


    I'm all for Dragon Disciple. Here's my Guide.


    As good as the Illusionist no doubt is, I'm not sure I'm original enough to make it really pop. Might be a good exercise though.

    So we've narrowed it down to Draconic and Stormborn. Cool. That helps a lot.

    Draconic-wise, I like green and silver. So either acid or cold. The Linnorm variant has a certain draw, being a hint more defensive in application. It's probably going to end with me buffing more than blasting as I lower Charisma to build some physicality.

    Stormborn would let me stack up electric DCs. Or let me skip Elemental Focus in favor of something else. Plus lightning is super-cool. The bloodline actually gives me most of the good lightning spells, letting me pick other stuff too.

    Thanks for the help so far. Further input is appreciated.


    If you go draconic, from those two choices, go green. Imo.


    Linnorm (definitely green) is good if you don't think you'll ever use your claw attacks. I hardly ever do except for when I'm without a weapon and want to threaten so as to provide a flanking bonus for my Rogue. But Stormborn has such a cool flavor. I can see why you can't decide.

    There's always the option to get the best of both worlds (arguably) and be crossblooded. Or you could choose one and take the Eldritch Hertiage feats to get the powers of the other. Just some suggestions if you really can't narrow it down to one.


    I can see the value in Crossblood, I just hate giving up my precious spells known. They're... precious. So precious.

    Okay, that would be funnier in person. How about something more concrete? Here's how I'm looking at building a Stormborn.

    Half-Elf Sorceror 3
    Stormborn Bloodline
    25 points
    FCB into skills

    STR 10
    DEX 14
    CON 14
    INT 14
    WIS 10
    CHA 18

    01 Eschew Materials*, SkF Spellcraft*, SpF Evocation
    03 Defensive Combat Training

    Bluff 3
    Fly 3
    Spellcraft 3
    Know: History 1 (just... go with it)
    Know Arcana 2

    Cantrip: Mending, Detect MAgic, Dancing Lights, MAge HAnd, Message
    First: Shocking Grasp*, Vanish, Ear-piercing Scream, Grease

    Blah blah derived stats blah. Wand of Mage Armor. Anyone know if casting with a cestus is legal? Was kinda in the plan, half-baked though it may be.

    I'll level with you guys: this whole thing is me trying to drive myself out of the box. A human throwing rays around makes sense to me. Letting the enemy roll saves? Madness! The gish DD is something I need to wrap my head around too.

    Never hurts to have a spare character in the back pocket, right?

    Submit, thanks for reminding me about EH. Not sure how I blocked that out. Good option though.


    For the cestus idea, I think it depends on who you ask. Technically, it's a glove, so your hand is still free to hold items. I don't see why you couldn't also cast spells. Some people might say it counts as wielding a weapon either way. As a compromise, you could self-impose a 5% arcane spell failure chance when you cast with that hand. It really depends on your GM, though. Just ask.

    Any particular reason for Defensive Combat Training? Do you plan to get tripped or grabbed a lot? Did you mean Combat Casting instead?

    As for the Dragon Disciple, by itself it's not so much of a gish. As I mentioned earlier, it just adds some survivability to your Sorcerer and pumps up your bloodline powers. You don't have to be more melee focused if you don't want to be. If you won't miss (or even make it high enough to get) 9th level spells, then it's a good choice for a draconic Sorcerer. Unfortunately, you can't use your half-elfiness to claim that as your second favored class. Which I think is a dumb rule. A prestige class is still a class. But there's always the Arcane Training alternate racial trait in that case.

    Sovereign Court

    If you're taking the character to/beyond 15th level.. Stormborn has my favorite bloodline ability. Of them all.

    300' (or more) move per round? that doesn't provoke AoOs? And I can move through hostiles? and damage them while doing it!?! Yes please!


    For EH, the prereq is Skill Focus (bloodline skill)... perhaps change your bonus SF feat to open the door to EH? Not like SF-Perception is a bad choice, either, since it's both useful and also qualifies for EH-Dragon (or EH-Accursed, if you have a change of heart).


    submit2me wrote:

    Any particular reason for Defensive Combat Training? Do you plan to get tripped or grabbed a lot? Did you mean Combat Casting instead?

    It's mostly so I don't get tripped or grabbed a lot. I noticed CMD as a big gaping hole and paranoia made me fill it in. Combat casting might be a better choice though, given the relatively close ranges of my spells. I figured I would take stuff like that now, and then take the casting boosts later on when I have the spells to take advantage of it. SpF could probably wait a bit, for example.

    Also: good point, Malignor.


    Here's a thought: How does the DDs Dragon Bite interact with the Linnorm ray?

    Hypothetical DD Aspirant
    Half-Elf Sorceror 3
    Draconic (Green) Bloodline
    25 points
    FCB into skills

    STR 14
    DEX 14
    CON 14
    INT 12
    WIS 10
    CHA 16

    01 Eschew Materials*, SkF Spellcraft*, Dodge
    03 Defensive Combat Training

    Appraise (to build the hoard) 1
    Bluff 1
    Fly 3
    Spellcraft 3
    Know: History 1 (just... go with it)
    Know Arcana 3

    Cantrip: Mending, Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Mage HAnd, Message
    First: Mage Armor*, Vanish, Grease, Magic Missile

    Further thoughts? I can see how these characters would be awesome in later levels, but I think I'm trying to force myself to be awesome now. Maybe I just need to bide my time through the early stages of the quadratic curve.


    I think that what you have here is a good base for a future Dragon Disciple. I'm 8th level now, and it didn't really start coming together for me until 6th level. Once you actually start taking those DD levels, you'll notice a difference right away. Also, are you allowed to take traits? If so, you should take Magical Knack. The effects of it wouldn't kick in until your 5th DD level, but your effective caster level would increase by +2 at that point. It somewhat makes up for the few levels of spells that you lose. I don't think my DD would function as well without it since I also took two levels of Fighter.

    As far as Linnorm Ray and Dragon Bite, I think there's a disconnect between them. Personally, I would say that the Linnorm bloodline doesn't count as the Draconic bloodline for claws. You would get claws at your 1st DD level, and they would progress from there as if you were a 1st level Sorcerer. Either that, or it just doesn't work at all and you never get claws or a bite attack. Since you want to be a DD, though, I'd suggest just keeping the claws. They do come in handy every once in a great while. And you should have plenty of Magic Missile uses later on that will be better than the ray attack.


    Yeah, I think I'm going to go with the Dragon Disciple. I'm a sucker for a decent guide.

    I'd be curious to see how you set yours up, Submit. You must be... what? Sorc 3/Fighter 2/DD 3? What feats did you end up taking? How about spells?

    I think I might need Burning Hands at this early stage. Swarms terrify me, and I'm probably going to be the only one who can deal with them. No big deal. I'll switch out Vanish. Can always tweak when I level up.

    Noticed an inefficiency in my point buy, too. I should have a 14 in everything but WIS, and the floating +2 puts me to 16 CHA. SF can be one of Spellcraft, UMD, or Perception, since I have no real use for Eldritch Heritage.

    Thanks for helping me think this through. Hope I don't blow it :)


    Looking at your group setup, I prefer the caster route or, if DD is really stuck in your mind, go Sorc10/DD10. That's more favored class bonuses and more spellcasting.


    Well, as I have a very gracious GM, my character has been retconned and homebrewed a lot. Also, individual Dragon Disciples may vary. I wanted a scary, intimidating shadow dragon lady. I'd be happy to share, nonetheless. I'll put it under a cut so no one else has to read a wall of text.

    Fae d'Lyrander:

    You guessed correctly about the levels. I started out as a Fighter for two levels, then three levels of Sorcerer, and then another three levels of Dragon Disciple. Half-elf was mostly for campaign flavor reasons, but I'm glad I chose it. The free Skill Focus and two favored classes really helped out. As for stats, we don't do point buy. I don't even know how it works, honestly. If we roll poorly, we use the Heroic NPC array. It's what I ended up using, which is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8. My stats ended up like this at 1st level (and currently at 8th level):

    STR 15 (20)
    DEX 14 (14)
    CON 10 (10)
    INT 12 (12)
    WIS 8 (8)
    CHA 15 (18)

    For feats, I wanted to take advantage of Intimidate. I used Skill Focus for Intimidate. I also took Fighter feats such as Weapon Focus (great sword, but at first I used the lucerne hammer), Power Attack (bloodline), Dazzling Display, Intimidating Prowess... then some more magical feats such as Arcane Strike and Arcane Armor Training. One of my bloodline feats is Toughness. I left my Con as 10 because I knew I'd eventually get the extra hp somewhere else.

    I try to stick to a theme rather than go for the more obvious, powerful spells. I choose mostly illusion and necromancy spells for this character. Also, since I'm a gish, I try to pick things that help me in combat. This is what I have so far:

    Cantrips: Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead, Ghost Sound, Light, Ray of Frost, and Read Magic
    1st level: Magic Missile, Shield, Silent Image (homebrew draconic), Touch of Gracelessness, and True Strike
    2nd level: Darkness (homebrew draconic), Glitterdust, and Mirror Image

    Shield + Mirror Image is the best combo ever for a gish. If you only have time to cast one, then go for Mirror Image. It has saved me from certain doom on more than one occasion. I'd take it asap if you plan on going into melee at all. If you don't, then any blasty stuff should be fine, too.

    I'd use Skill Focus for Spellcraft or Perception. Definitely Spellcraft if you want to easily identify magical properties of things. You seem to have a good grasp on things already, so I'm sure you'll do fine. Just remember to have fun with it! =D


    How high do you expect the campagin to go?

    Are you expected to do Face things? (If not expected to do Face things, consider Sage.)

    Are you DEAD SET against human? (The reason I ask this is you mentioned your "precious spells known" and the optional favored class bonus for human is an extra spell known each LEVEL (max level -1) so you could get 20 extra known spells (3 of which would be cantrips).

    Another option (which would rule out EVIL) would be paladin 2/sorceror 6/EK 10/Sorceror 2 (Gnome works well for this build). You loose soem castig but are more survivable.

    Also for PRIMARY casters at 25, you really should have a 20 in your primary stat. I would recommendbefore racial 18/12/12/12/12/10 (since it looks like yo do not want to dump a stat) or 18/14/12/12/10/9 (if yo are willing for a minor dump). These arrays make sure your Con/Dex/Wis get at least a +1 for saves.


    I really can't guess how high we might get. We will level when the GM decides it's a good opportunity. The last couple campaigns we've tried kinda fizzled, but I'm cautiously optimistic.

    Really, once I hit the pre-reqs I can take DD anytime I like. Sorc 10 is most likely worthwhile. We'll see how it shakes out.

    Face-wise... I'm not too worried. The cavalier and the cleric are both good at that kind of thing. I expect most face stuff will rely more on being convincing than rolling well. Sage had occurred to me, promise. Just wanted something with some... I dunno, zazz.

    Yes, I am dead-set against human. Paladin is out too. I know there is good synergy with both. I'm just not into it.

    I really should get the CHA back up to 18 at least. I will be slinging saves around eventually. A 20 I can take or leave. Good point though, Ughbash.

    16 14 14 12 13 10. Skills might be a little thin, but I can fill them out as we progress.


    Alitan wrote:
    If you're up for playing a gnome (some aren't for some reason) and are willing to focus your spell list on illusion spells, then take the... wait for it... Arcane bloodline. No, seriously.

    Might have something to do with the fact that you're playing a tiny man spraying the colors of the rainbow at your enemies. Some people tend to find this character particularly ridiculous. . . even though it's a classic D&D character.

    (Disclaimer: this is exactly my current character in my game.)


    Trouble with that character is you get these kids chasing you, trying to steal your lucky charms.


    meabolex wrote:
    Alitan wrote:
    If you're up for playing a gnome (some aren't for some reason) and are willing to focus your spell list on illusion spells, then take the... wait for it... Arcane bloodline. No, seriously.

    Might have something to do with the fact that you're playing a tiny man spraying the colors of the rainbow at your enemies. Some people tend to find this character particularly ridiculous. . . even though it's a classic D&D character.

    (Disclaimer: this is exactly my current character in my game.)

    Then you know the joy of high-DC phantasmal killer, and nigh-impenetrable major image, shadow evocations that work Just Like The Real Thing [tm].

    Really, Gnome+Arcane Bloodline just rocks... let 'em laugh. Until they realize that Really Hot Chick they were flirting with in the tavern is a trained monkey covered by a seeming...

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