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Great big majestic super LG silver dragon wearing armor consisting of drowskin.
PCs: What the hell is wrong with you!?
Silver Dragon:
PCs: Yeah...but you're wearing people skin...oh...wait...
Silver Dragon: Yes, but they were all bad.[/ahnold]
PCs: Oh...still...
Silver Dragon:
PCs: :O
Got to thinking about this back when my paladin saw a set of blue dragonhide armor. Just felt too twisted from that perspective. Being friends with a dragon disciple probably played a part in that as well. In settings with a wide range of sapient beings, it just seems a lot of things one takes for granted leads to horrifying situations, even before in-setting values dissonance comes into play.*
*(on the other hand, my supergood barbarian would have seen it as honoring the dragon in question, unless the dragon or someone in the know informed him otherwise. Shoanti aren't much for letting anything go to waste....)
of course one could always just find or be given scales, though one is unlikely to get the reciept showing that when this armor turns up in treasure
I think one major difference is that Dragon's are known for having super-tough hide. Dragon hide armor has always been seen as a sort of trophy, since humanoids are inherently weaker, epic level PC's aside.
But Your point still stands; the skin of sentient creature makes very questionable taste, no matter the alignment.
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I had a player who's PC, an elf, who would eat other sapient races besides elves. He stated it wasn't cannibalism since they weren't elven. He had them listed on his sheet as, for example 'dwarf rations'. It was a hard one to argue, since he never killed for the, um, rations. Just if they happened to die for other reasons.
I think there is some difference between wearing sentient beings flesh for merely style reasons or for actual utility reasons.
I mean if the dragon with the drow suit got enhanced spell resistance because of it or even was able to hide better due to its color, then I don't think it is nearly as bad if it just wore it just for its style.
Would we be so cavalier about cutting down trees if they screamed?
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Funny, I read the thread title and thought "awesome"!
I like to consider myself pretty enlightened on a lot of issues, but I like my fantasy brutal. Applying this kind of symmetrical logic to something as just plain cool as dragonscale armor seems like forgetting to have fun.
There's a lot to be said for making the players think now and then. But at the end of the day, I just can't expect moral consistency from a game that is about stabbing and murder, and which by its foundations sees no contradiction in being "good" while doing that.
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I had a wizard once who made red dragon skin armor out of a dragon he killed and wore it in spite of the spell failure chance just to hack off dragons...
Cool threads dragon brah. Eyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!
Would we be so cavalier about cutting down trees if they screamed?
** spoiler omitted **
Adventure idea. If trees were like the yappy dogs of neighbours, the poor trees...
If it was a lizardfolk reincanated as a dragon he might like being turned into clothes. Also what do centars think about glue?
I see a comparant possible with the bones of Saints ued to build "powerful" holy-items mostly in medival times.
I would feel that the skin-use would require the "right" moral fluff: Showing them to Bahamut in the full sunlight and marking them with silver symbols of evil being fought by evil.
this is an interesting thread. i shudder to think how many humanoids would have to die to clothe an ancient dragon, especially if, like dragonhide armour, they only use the choice bits of the hide.
other than the shock factor, i don't really see much of a problem with this. i mean, it's not like the humanoids were using them anymore (and if they were then the dragon should reconsider being lawful good), so they were just going to rot or be eaten anyway. of course, unlike dragons, humanoids aren't colour coded for ease of morality which makes it harder to be sure that they were 'all bad' but are you really going to question a dragon wearing humanoid skins?
I think the problem is aren't dragons generally too self absorbed to think of wearing humans on them. That I think is the bigger problem.
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I played an evil bounty hunter character once who wore lizard folk boots. Said lizard folk didn't pay for services rendered
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I just can't expect moral consistency from a game that is about stabbing and murder, and which by its foundations sees no contradiction in being "good" while doing that.
BUT...
It's a game where there is an ABSOLUTE good vs. evil paradigm in the world. So slaying evil in such a world would not be murder and would in fact, be considered good and the unquestionably right thing to do...
Your real world morality holds no sway over my fictitious Deity's allowance of wearing the skin of my dead foes.
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I just can't expect moral consistency from a game that is about stabbing and murder, and which by its foundations sees no contradiction in being "good" while doing that.BUT...
It's a game where there is an ABSOLUTE good vs. evil paradigm in the world. So slaying evil in such a world would not be murder and would in fact, be considered good and the unquestionably right thing to do...
I think the "alignment and morality" horse carcass has been sufficiently beaten into paste on other threads this month. Just, suffice it to say I disagree with EL's take in the quoted post on what the game is about, and I don't play alignment or the relationship between what is good and what is evil in the way DE suggests above (whether intended as serious or sarcastic by DE, there are people who play the game that way). I also deny the idea implied in the quoted statements that there is only one way to play alignment and morality in the game.
I'm still pondering what, if any, reaction would be proper. I think the "drow-skin" armor for a Silver Dragon might be appropriate just as a shock value point made by the dragon to get people (who may wear 'dragon hide' armor) to think a little more about whether or not it should be acceptable to be doing that, without requiring the dragon to just up and "nuke" some adventurers it might be irritated with.
Reminds me of Baldur's gate 2, I liked the flesh armour.
Could throw in a cult of Itaqua
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaqua
With very powerful cannibal priests, which wear human-skin armour. They know their stuff, and the enchantment and abilities that come with the "sets" are quite strong. Extra rage points, healing, strength boosts, all flavour stuff connecting to the cult.
Then the question is, do the players use the flesh suits? Which are better than what they have (lol breastplate of hardened eaten corpses +3 with str boost of +4 for ten rounds a day, bonza!).
If they do so, after a while, have some saves versus being whispered to by Itaqua, alignment change. Then have npcs respond to these choices.
There's a silver dragon in the boards whom I think wears a shuman disguise too... He goes by the name of Sharoth.
:P
I'd always assumed that given the ridiculously low price of dragon hide material mean that at least some of it was coming from shed scales, which would be less creepy because it doesn't imply dead dragon.
A dragon might turn humans into mw studded leather. No armor check penalty, no proficiency required. hey, you gotta use all the parts.
I always wanted to have a human priest of Apsu show up in a fairly large city like Absalom or Katapesh during a campaign and start buying up dragonhide. Basically he would be taking the items and putting them to rest out of respect for Apsu's children.
I didn't have any grand plan for this guy, other than to have him show up just to pose the question about wearing dragonhide or making dragonhide objects.
It's not something I would have been too heavy handed with ("your alignment is going to change now that you've been enlightened and haven't changed your ways!"), but it's the kind of roleplaying conundrum that is fun to throw into a session that is otherwise pretty straight forward.
I just imagined a case of dragon "organ donor" syndrome.
An ancient dragon lies on his death horde. He summons an alignment appropriate fighter to his lair.
Dragon: Sir Kilzalot, I've long admired your bravery and the good work you've done with widows and orphans.
Kilzalot: Thank you, you're too kind.
Dragon: In gratitude for the valor you showed when we fought the hordes of nastiness at the Battle of Randomsite, I will grant you one dying boon. When I die, please take my hide and fashion armor from it so you we can continue to fight together.
Kilzalot: Score! *cough* I mean, I'll wear it with honor.
That would actually make for a nice counterpoint to the RP scenario I was proposing above.
"No, really, he told me to skin him and wear his scales. I totally respected him. It was a gift, I swear!"
what is that quote?
it's from the old australian song tie me kangeroo down, sport.
"tan me hide when i'm dead, fred, tan me hide when i'm dead.
so we tanned his hide when he died, clyde, and that's it hanging on the shed!"
I'm thinking how most (normal) people would react if they encountered a person wearing a leather jacket made out of human skin.
Thats assuming they knew. It looks rather ordinary.
of course, unlike dragons, humanoids aren't colour coded for ease of morality which makes it harder to be sure that they were 'all bad' but are you really going to question a dragon wearing humanoid skins?
Pathfinder Drow are. Color coded for morality, that is.
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I just imagined a case of dragon "organ donor" syndrome.
An ancient dragon lies on his death horde. He summons an alignment appropriate fighter to his lair.
Dragon: Sir Kilzalot, I've long admired your bravery and the good work you've done with widows and orphans.
Kilzalot: Thank you, you're too kind.
Dragon: In gratitude for the valor you showed when we fought the hordes of nastiness at the Battle of Randomsite, I will grant you one dying boon. When I die, please take my hide and fashion armor from it so you we can continue to fight together.
Kilzalot: Score! *cough* I mean, I'll wear it with honor.That would actually make for a nice counterpoint to the RP scenario I was proposing above.
"No, really, he told me to skin him and wear his scales. I totally respected him. It was a gift, I swear!"
My first thought was that I'd love to have both of those characters in a party. :)
My second thought, after remembering that dragons can and do mate with humanoids, was of a dead-serious variant of Robertness' character clutching his/her own gold-scale-armored arms and tearfully protesting that that armor is all he/she has to remember his/her lover by.
:O
I mean if the dragon with the drow suit got enhanced spell resistance because of it or even was able to hide better due to its color, then I don't think it is nearly as bad if it just wore it just for its style.
Yeah, that's why I went with drow for the example.
Though I have to worry whether or not there's any truth to Robin's theory on adventurer behavior if drowskin did that "out of the box" like dragonhide does...
There's a silver dragon in the boards whom I think wears a shuman disguise too... He goes by the name of Sharoth.
:P
~looks around~ Where? There is a dragon here? Who is he?
~jumps and screams~ AHHH!!!! A DRAGON!!! ~Runs~