As the subject title reads, I'm curious to find out what is the highest CMB possible by 12th level for any maneuver you are trained in. It could be Dirty Trick, Disarm, Trip or any of the others. I don't really care which one. What can it be maximized out to?
Assumptions:
1. Standard wealth for 12th level
2. No leadership feat and assume no outside help from allies
3. 20 point build
I'm keen to see what is possible as inspiration for the Adventure Path I'm in and for possible society play.
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At first glance, although I haven't done any maths, or even thought it out that hard, I'm going to say a properly equipped Barbarian with the Strength Surge rage power is going to be your best bet on a single check. I'm not sure, however, about sustained CMB. I'd have to do some actual work for that.
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As the subject title reads, I'm curious to find out what is the highest CMB possible by 12th level for any maneuver you are trained in. It could be Dirty Trick, Disarm, Trip or any of the others. I don't really care which one. What can it be maximized out to?
The Strength Surge Barbarian or someone casting True Strike is going to win, but assuming no consumables and sustained attempts, let's try this on for size:
Let's see... Standard Wealth is 108,000, so let's start making a trip build from there.
Human Fighter 11 (Lore Warden)/Barbarian 1
Stats: Str 17 +2 racial +3 from level up +6 belt = 28
Important Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Weapon Focus: Flail, Greater Weapon Focus: Trip
Important Class abilities: Weapon Training Flails (+2), Maneuver Mastery (+6)
36,000 Belt of Giant Strength +6
15,000 Gloves of Dueling
36,308 +3 Weapon (I chose Flail)
05,000 Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone slotted in
00,500 Wayfinder
04,000 Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone
Total:
BAB +12
Strength +9
Weapon Training +4
Maneuver Mastery +6
Weapon Focus & GWF +2
Weapon +3 enhancement
Imp Trip, Greater Trip +4
Slotted Rose Ioun Stone +2 insight
Pale Green Ioun Stone +1 competence
Rage +2
That totals +45. It seems a little low, actually. I'm fairly certain I'm missing some feats and traits in there, put it together rather quickly. Add in as you see fit!
but assuming no consumables and sustained attempts
Good point. I'm going to add to my assumptions list:
4. No consumables5. Must be sustained so assuming 5 encounters per day, must be able to maintain CMB at 5 different times per day for more than 1 round per encounter.
+45 seems very high to me. Impressive! I'll look over in more detail when I get time and see if I can crack this high score.
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That totals +45. It seems a little low, actually. I'm fairly certain I'm missing some feats and traits in there, put it together rather quickly. Add in as you see fit!
Fury's Fall should help.
Are we assuming no rage cycling barbs?
Are we assuming no rage cycling barbs?
Raging barbarians are fine provided they can rage for more than one round over 4 or 5 separate encounters per day. A one off per day rage ability just isn't going to cut it when you're adventuring.
36,000 Belt of Giant Strength +6
15,000 Gloves of Dueling
36,308 +3 Weapon (I chose Flail)
05,000 Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone slotted in
00,500 Wayfinder
04,000 Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun StoneTotal:
BAB +12
Strength +9
Weapon Training +4
Maneuver Mastery +6
Weapon Focus & GWF +2
Weapon +3 enhancement
Imp Trip, Greater Trip +4
Slotted Rose Ioun Stone +2 insight
Pale Green Ioun Stone +1 competence
Just been checking through your item list and need some clarification. I thought the Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone gave an insight bonus to your AC? A Pale Green Stone looks to cost 30,000gp in the PRD. What is the significance of a cracked one and why is it so much cheaper?
I think Eben is wanting to know about once per rage powersAre we assuming no rage cycling barbs?Raging barbarians are fine provided they can rage for more than one round over 4 or 5 separate encounters per day. A one off per day rage ability just isn't going to cut it when you're adventuring.
I don't know a great deal about babarians but once per rage powers might not be suitable as far as sustainability of your CMB is concerned. For instance, Strength Surge is great for your CMB score but for it to be considered, I would like to see that it can be used more than once per encounter. Perhaps there is a way to leave and then enter Rage again in the same encounter to re-use such an ability otherwise I would consider it unsustainable for this excercise.
I don't know a great deal about babarians but once per rage powers might not be suitable as far as sustainability of your CMB is concerned. For instance, Strength Surge is great for your CMB score but for it to be considered, I would like to see that it can be used more than once per encounter. Perhaps there is a way to leave and then enter Rage again in the same encounter to re-use such an ability otherwise I would consider it unsustainable for this excercise.
Nope, rice cycling is something perfectly legal by RAW but that some may find a bit cheesy (personally, I do, but as I said it's perfectly legal and some people will argue that barbarian are supposed to to exactly that).
You know that activating rage is a free actions, and so is stopping rage. If you are immune to fatigue you can do your stuff during your round, enter rage as a free action, exit rage as a free action and repeat every round: this way every once-per-rage power becomes a once-per-round power, since every round counts as a different rage.Barbarian get immunity to fatigue (due to rage) at level 17: if you multiclass you can get immunity to fatigue much earlier (most popular choices are monk-martial artist and oracle-lame curse).
As you see the barbarian qualify for your criteria, and can use strength surge once per round for free: if rage cycling is allowed, a barbarian11/oracle1 is probably the king of CMB.
Barbarian get immunity to fatigue (due to rage) at level 17: if you multiclass you can get immunity to fatigue much earlier (most popular choices are monk-martial artist and oracle-lame curse).As you see the barbarian qualify for your criteria, and can use strength surge once per round for free: if rage cycling is allowed, a barbarian11/oracle1 is probably the king of CMB.
This has piqued my interest. I'd love to see a multiclass barbarian build such as barbarian/oracle that can hit a sustainable high CMB score using 12 levels. Anybody got one?
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Revised!
Human Fighter 11 (Lore Warden)/Barbarian 1
Stats:
Str 17 +2 racial +3 from level up +6 belt = 28
Dex 16 +2 ioun stone = 18
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 7
Cha 7
Important Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Weapon Focus: Flail, Greater Weapon Focus: Flail, Fury's Fall
Important Class abilities: Weapon Training Flails (+2), Maneuver Mastery (+6)
36,000 Belt of Giant Strength +6
15,000 Gloves of Dueling
36,308 +2, Dueling Weapon (I chose Flail)
05,000 Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone slotted in
00,500 Wayfinder
04,000 Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone
08,000 Deep Red Sphere Ioun Stone
Total:
BAB +12
Strength +9
Weapon Training +4
Maneuver Mastery +6
Weapon Focus & GWF +2
Fury's Fall +4 dex
Weapon +2 enhancement, +4 Luck
Imp Trip, Greater Trip +4
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone resonating in wayfinder +2 insight
Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone +1 competence
Rage +2
That totals +52. There's probably still some traits to be taken, and there is room for at least one more bonus type (morale). Add in as you see fit!
That's pretty good. If he imbibes a potion of heroism, he can trip the Tarrasque with a roll of a 12.
I'd bet on a Synthesist Summoner having the best CMB, but don't feel like running the numbers right now.
Why don´t you go pure DEx with agile maneuvers and fury´s fall?
Get your maxxed DEX bonus 2 times.
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Why don´t you go pure DEx with agile maneuvers and fury´s fall?
Get your maxxed DEX bonus 2 times.
Because both feats let you add your "Dex Bonus," they wouldn't stack. (Bonuses of the same type never stack.)
In other news, I fail at math. A +2, Dueling weapon would only be 18,308. So let's make the following changes:
Human Fighter 11 (Lore Warden)/Barbarian 1
Stats:
Str 17 +2 racial +3 from level up +2 belt = 24
Dex 16 +2 belt = 18
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 7
Cha 7
Important Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Weapon Focus: Flail, Greater Weapon Focus: Flail, Fury's Fall
Important Class abilities: Weapon Training Flails (+2), Maneuver Mastery (+6)
10,000 Belt of Physical Might (Strength and Dex) +2
15,000 Gloves of Dueling
72,308 +5, Dueling Weapon (I chose Flail)
05,000 Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone slotted in
00,500 Wayfinder
04,000 Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone
Total:
BAB +12
Strength +7
Weapon Training +4
Maneuver Mastery +6
Weapon Focus & GWF +2
Fury's Fall +4 dex
Weapon +5 enhancement, + 10 Luck
Imp Trip, Greater Trip +4
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone resonating in wayfinder +2 insight
Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone +1 competence
Rage +2
That totals +59. There's probably still some traits to be taken, and there is room for at least one more bonus type (morale). You will probably die quickly since you only have 192 g to spend on defenses. Add in as you see fit!
Why don´t you go pure DEx with agile maneuvers and fury´s fall?
Get your maxxed DEX bonus 2 times.
Because bonus is only part of the story. You can only trip things up to 1 size larger than you are. Anything to make yourself larger (which also helps for reach, which is very useful for a tripper) will hurt your dex. So it becomes sort of self-defeating. Also, if you're using point buy, the exponential cost of ability scores and +stat items means a dex-focused character likely only has ~2-4 points higher dex than a normal melee type has Str (in addition to maintaining a decent dex).
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Why don´t you go pure DEx with agile maneuvers and fury´s fall?
Get your maxxed DEX bonus 2 times.Because both feats let you add your "Dex Bonus," they wouldn't stack. (Bonuses of the same type never stack.)
Actually in this case I think you're incorrect. The wording of each is as follows:
Agile Maneuvers: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus instead of your Strength bonus.
Fury's Fall: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.
The way I read this is with Agile Maneuvers, you use your Dex instead of Str when determining your CMB. This gives you a number for CMB, let's say it's +10 (+4 BAB, +6 Dex).
Fury's Fall then says "add your Dex bonus to CMB" which means it adds on top of your current CMB, which happened to be determined using Dex. So now we're looking at a total of +16 (+10 CMB, +6 Dex).
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Why don´t you go pure DEx with agile maneuvers and fury´s fall?
Get your maxxed DEX bonus 2 times.Because both feats let you add your "Dex Bonus," they wouldn't stack. (Bonuses of the same type never stack.)
Actually in this case I think you're incorrect. The wording of each is as follows:
Agile Maneuvers: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus instead of your Strength bonus.
Fury's Fall: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.
The way I read this is with Agile Maneuvers, you use your Dex instead of Str when determining your CMB. This gives you a number for CMB, let's say it's +10 (+4 BAB, +6 Dex).
Fury's Fall then says "add your Dex bonus to CMB" which means it adds on top of your current CMB, which happened to be determined using Dex. So now we're looking at a total of +16 (+10 CMB, +6 Dex).
I agree, you could interpret it that way. You could also interpret it as the first one says "Add your Dex bonus" and the second one contains the words "Add your Dex Bonus" so they don't stack. I would rule in favor of the non-stacking interpretation, others would allow a double Dex. I'm not trying to debate which is correct here. I wanted a build that couldn't be argued over, hence I went Strength.
Bred for War shoanti trait to add +1.
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I agree, you could interpret it that way. You could also interpret it as the first one says "Add your Dex bonus" and the second one contains the words "Add your Dex Bonus" so they don't stack. I would rule in favor of the non-stacking interpretation, others would allow a double Dex. I'm not trying to debate which is correct here. I wanted a build that couldn't be argued over, hence I went Strength.Why don´t you go pure DEx with agile maneuvers and fury´s fall?
Get your maxxed DEX bonus 2 times.Because both feats let you add your "Dex Bonus," they wouldn't stack. (Bonuses of the same type never stack.)
Actually in this case I think you're incorrect. The wording of each is as follows:
Agile Maneuvers: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus instead of your Strength bonus.
Fury's Fall: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.
The way I read this is with Agile Maneuvers, you use your Dex instead of Str when determining your CMB. This gives you a number for CMB, let's say it's +10 (+4 BAB, +6 Dex).
Fury's Fall then says "add your Dex bonus to CMB" which means it adds on top of your current CMB, which happened to be determined using Dex. So now we're looking at a total of +16 (+10 CMB, +6 Dex).
And, to be honest, Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall will stack, without any quibbles.
You are trying to disqualify one with the other, and they are untyped bonuses, if a bonus at all, from different sources. No problems, they stack. Cheese, of course, but they stack.
That totals +59. There's probably still some traits to be taken, and there is room for at least one more bonus type (morale). You will probably die quickly since you only have 192 g to spend on defenses. Add in as you see fit!
You are forgetting the Lore Waren's 7th level ability: Know Thy Enemy. With a successful knowledge check you get +2 competence bonus to your attacks and damage. This means, ofcourse, that you want to stack your build with several key knowledge skills. The Lore Warden helps by giving you 2 additional skill ranks per level to spend on intelligence based skills.
This will move your impressive score to +61.
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If you play regularly with a partner, the Tandem Trip Teamwork feat is the way to go:
Tandem Trip (Combat, Teamwork)
You know how to work together to trip your foes.
Benefit: Whenever you attempt a trip combat maneuver
against an enemy threatened by an ally with this feat, you
roll twice and take the better result.
Why don´t you go pure DEx with agile maneuvers and fury´s fall?
Get your maxxed DEX bonus 2 times.Because both feats let you add your "Dex Bonus," they wouldn't stack. (Bonuses of the same type never stack.)
In other news, I fail at math. A +2, Dueling weapon would only be 18,308. So let's make the following changes:
Human Fighter 11 (Lore Warden)/Barbarian 1
Stats:
Str 17 +2 racial +3 from level up +2 belt = 24
Dex 16 +2 belt = 18
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 7
Cha 7Important Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Weapon Focus: Flail, Greater Weapon Focus: Flail, Fury's Fall
Important Class abilities: Weapon Training Flails (+2), Maneuver Mastery (+6)10,000 Belt of Physical Might (Strength and Dex) +2
15,000 Gloves of Dueling
72,308 +5, Dueling Weapon (I chose Flail)
05,000 Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone slotted in
00,500 Wayfinder
04,000 Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun StoneTotal:
BAB +12
Strength +7
Weapon Training +4
Maneuver Mastery +6
Weapon Focus & GWF +2
Fury's Fall +4 dex
Weapon +5 enhancement, + 10 Luck
Imp Trip, Greater Trip +4
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone resonating in wayfinder +2 insight
Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone +1 competence
Rage +2That totals +59. There's probably still some traits to be taken, and there is room for at least one more bonus type (morale). You will probably die quickly since you only have 192 g to spend on defenses. Add in as you see fit!
Ok I might be blind, but where exactly is your Luck Bonus coming from? I don't see the source...
Oh, and you can't put the Dueling enhancement on a Flail (must be a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse)
I am thinking about a Synthesist 9/Weapon Master 3, but I don't have time right now to stat it out, maybe tomorrow.
Basically: Super high Str, similar choices to the above fighter build with weapon training with a tripping weapon, dueling gloves etc...
I am thinking about a Synthesist 9/Weapon Master 3, but I don't have time right now to stat it out, maybe tomorrow.
Basically: Super high Str, similar choices to the above fighter build with weapon training with a tripping weapon, dueling gloves etc...
I look forward to seeing your build.
Hmm, running the numbers it looks like it comes short of the +59 up there.. nuts.
Oh well, still kind of fun:
Half-Elf Synthesist 9/Weapon Master Fighter 3
Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait
Favored class bonuses= +1/4 evolution point x8, +1HPx4
Str 11 (Merged= 32)
Dex 12 (Merged= 18)
Con 14 (Merged= 13)
Int 14+2
Wis 12
Cha 14
Eidolon: Biped
Evolutions (13+2+1):
Large (4)
Ability Increase: Dexterity x2 (4)
Ability Increase: Strength x2 (8)
Feats:
Half Elf Bonus - Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shang Gou
1- Combat Expertise
3- Improved Trip
5- Extra Evolution
7- Fury's Fall
9- Greater Trip
10 (Fighter bonus)- Weapon Focus: Shang Gou
11- Opening Volley
11 (Fighter bonus)- hmmm.. something else.
Relevant gear:
15,000 Gloves of Dueling
72,308 +5, Dueling Shang Gou
05,000 Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone slotted in
00,500 Wayfinder
04,000 Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone
...Haven't fleshed it out really, but that is the idea.... seems a bit short though, still kinda neat
Can someone explain how the slotted Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone in the wayfinder will grant a bonus to CMB?
Also is there any feats or magic items that grant the weapon training class ability to fighter archetypes that do not have weapon training?
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Ok I might be blind, but where exactly is your Luck Bonus coming from? I don't see the source...
Oh, and you can't put the Dueling enhancement on a Flail (must be a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse)
The answer to both questions is one and the same. There are two weapon enhancements called "Dueling". The one you are familiar with, from APG, and one from Pathfinder Society Field Guide.
Ahhh, that explains it.
Can someone explain how the slotted Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone in the wayfinder will grant a bonus to CMB?It is all in Seeker of Secrets.
My search-fu failed. I looked in both the Pathfinder PRD and SRD and could only see inferences to the Wayfinder item and the Stone without any reference to what the combination actually does. For those of us with poor search-fu or without reference to Seeker of Secrets, could you please spell it out as I'm also interested in how it achieves the bonus?
Different Ioun stones produce different 'resonant powers' when slotted into a wayfinder.. basically a small additional bonus for using the two together.
For what it's worth, Fury's Fall+Agile Maneuvers (unfortunately) definitely allows you to add your Dex twice. I forget where this was addressed, but Agile Maneuvers has you replace Str with Dex, whereas Fury's Fall lets you just add it.
So, assuming fury's fall...
CMB(trip) = BAB+ STR + DEX +etc
and then with agile maneuvers, STR = DEX, therefore
CMB (trip) = BAB + DEX + DEX +etc
Which allows you to apply your massive DEX twice, for a stoooopid CMB