I have been thinking about this feat for ages and usually talk myself out of getting it. The main reason is we never use it so I had no idea of how exactly it worked. I believe it used to take XP to craft things, but now it seems a little more reasonable and I am more into the idea. However, with the time to play so into a group aspect I didn't want to burden the DM with "hey, let me play with the crafting while everyone else watches". So, I talked to the DM about it and he explained to me that it is really pretty easy to make stuff and that if I want to he has no problem with it. I expressed that I know we had never really used it so didn't know if it was an issue. He said that he never had someone show interest in the crafting skills so it never came up, but if I want to try it out he would be more than willing to work it out so we can have it happen and not mess with the flow or isolate anyone in the game. That all being said I am really leaning towards taking it when I get a chance to. I just wanted to get a little feedback before I invest a feat or two into the concept. What are the experiences everyone has had with crafting and how beneficial would it be to take a feat or two to pursue it? I know the cost of things would drop greatly and not having to find a person in the village that is selling +6 Headbands of Int and so on wouldn't be a problem, but the draw backs on the failed attempts and so on. So are there any tips or tricks to making it more useful or less usefull?
Since my character is a Kensai Bladebound Magus I have no need for weapon upgrades or armor... this leaves my share of the loot to probably be heavily geared towards wonderous items and gold that I could potentially make into wonderous items. This is one of the main reasons I think the feat would be so beneficial to me to play with. Also as a gnome who likes to keep busy, be obsessive, tinker, and so on it just fits the character.
All feedback as always is greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance...
I know the cost of things would drop greatly and not having to find a person in the village that is selling +6 Headbands of Int and so on wouldn't be a problem, but the draw backs on the failed attempts and so on. So are there any tips or tricks to making it more useful or less usefull?
The chance of failure is very low, assuming you're investing in Spellcraft ranks. The DC is only 5 + caster level, which is trivial to pass if you're "taking 10". Even if your GM doesn't allow you to "take 10", it's still pretty easy (at least for a wizard); a 3rd level character would only need a +7 modifier to never fail at making CL 3 magic items, for instance.
Well, first of all, the DC to craft an item is 5 + the caster level of the item. Boots of Levitation, for example, have a DC of 8 (5 + 3). Now, a first level wizard with 1 rank in Spellcraft (the max at first) with a 16 intelligence has a +7 bonus to Spellcraft before adding in feats or racial abilities. Generally speaking, if you add 1 rank in to Spellcraft each level, and didn't dump your Int, you're probably never going to miss your craft check. Since a Magus is an Int based caster, I'm assuming you've probably got a 16 int, so by the time you're able to craft the boots, you'll automatically make the check (as a 1 doesn't auto fail in skill checks).
I've got a Half-Elf wizard with his Adaptability into Spellcraft. He's 7th level and has a +17 to Spellcraft. IIRC, I can take a -2 penalty per criteria of the item I don't meet and craft it anyway. So I could, theoretically, craft items at higher caster levels than I really am (like Ability Headbands or Belts which require CL 8th) at a -2 penalty, though I would rule it at -2 penalty per level if I were to allow the RAW interpretation. I could also do other things such as craft items with spells I don't have, or skill ranks I don't have, alignments I don't meet etc. For the most part, my character will never fail a Spellcraft check to craft an item as long as I don't get greedy.
Darn, thumb hit touchpad while typing and sent the message, but hogarth beat me to my point anyway.
Now on to examples. My previously mentioned wizard is playing in the Kingmaker campaign, and I can craft an item at half price, and sell it for full, doubling my money. When we first started playing Pathfinder, I started looking for all the broken abilities, so I could point them out to the GMs that were running campaigns. We don't really like people running powerbuilds, and no sooner had I pointed that out, then one of the players introduced a Sorcerer with a maxed Charisma, and basically planned to be a crafting fiend, intending to bump his Sorcerer up to a 36 Cha.
In Kingmaker, I use crafting to help generate extra income for my kingdom, and I'm currently crafting items for the kingdom, and to fund the building of my Casters Tower (almost there too, only need like 40 more BP to go!/sarcasm). My GM and I initially came to words over my attempts to help aid the party with crafting thinking I was going to abuse it. I simply wanted to help every once in awhile, but we miscommunicated or something and straight up banned all crafting. Suffice to say, I was not happy. I was already angry at a previous role play scenario where I felt very violated afterwards and walked with a limp for a short time.
Anyway, we've cleared things up since then. I limit myself to generating one item for the Kingdom, and one for my Tower, to keep things somewhat fair. He said he'd read stories of other GMs not keeping track and the Wizard went crazy crafting items and generated so much money they didn't even NEED a Kingdom.
That's neither here nor there. Crafting can greatly aid the party if used appropriately. It helps keep party costs down if you can craft it yourself (as you only need to spend half the market price and a few days). For instance, I am not only a magic item enchanter, I am also a professional blacksmith, able to create any armor, weapon, clothing item etc, myself. Crafting the item physically, reduces the item cost to 1/3, and toss on the half enchanting cost, and you've really reduced the expenses of the party. All it takes is time, and in Kingmaker, we have LOTS of time.
Some things I've crafted so far for the party:
Wand of Resist Energy
Wand of Cure Critical (with help from the Cleric for the Divine spells)
+2 Mithril Greatsword
+1 Mithril Chainmail
Boots of Levitation
Some things I'm working on:
Several Cloaks of Resistance
Several enchanted weapons and armor
Potions of Haste, Invisibility, Fly, and Bear's Endurance
Boots of Waterwalking (the Cleric is deathly afraid of drowning)
Hat of Disguise
Cauldron of Brewing
Explosion Pocket
Circlet of Persuasion
Wand of Daylight
Wand of Haste
Wand of Magic Missile
And that's just the stuff I remember. We recently divided up a lot of loot and all the players requested stuff to be made, so I've got a huge list of things to work on in the near future.
At the moment I have 1 rank in Spellcraft which is a class skill and I have a +3 Int. So at lvl 1 I have a SC of 7... by lvl 3 when I could possibly take the feat it would be 9. Taking a 10 would give me 19 and there is little chance I could fail a check on any item I could afford to make. I will have to read more on the natural 1 and taking 10 cause I don't think my DM is as familiar with the rules as you guys are. We talked about it alittle and as I stated no one has really used crafting so I think he is a little unsure of how things work as well. However, this little bit of feedback makes me feel like it would be a great addition to the game for our group and my character.
However, this little bit of feedback makes me feel like it would be a great addition to the game for our group and my character.
There's really only one possible down side -- it takes quite a bit of down time between adventures to craft magic items. If your campaign doesn't have much down time, it might be a waste.
But failed crafting checks are nothing to be afraid of.
I don't think you can take 10 on crafting, since if you fail by 5 or more you make a cursed item.
Yes you can. Failure doesn't matter to taking 10, being distracted or in immediate danger does.
I was leaning towards wonderous items because as a Kensai Blade Bound I can wear no armor and from the way I understand it my weapon levels with me and its enhancement bonus increases every 4 levels. If I am misunderstanding this someone please let me know. The only benefit I would get from crafting weapons or armor would be to put an effect on the weapon which I can do without a feat via the Arcane Pool. However, just for my curiosity can you magically craft an enhanment ability on a Black Blade? cause if I can put a +1 Keen, +1 Agile and not take Dancing Dervish or Improved Critical that would save me 2 feats (well one as I would have to take Craft Magical Armor and Arms) Im just brainstorming... But all answers and feedback are appreciated.
As far as wonderous I see the option to make headbands, belts, amulets, cloaks, bags, boots, and so much more not just for me, but as you guys have stated help the entire group. Also if I read this right I can customize items and possibly put lets say a +2 Dex on Cloak of Resistance for the right price which I believe is 150% of what the +2 dex usually costs? Im sure there is a limit to the total enhancements on a certain item is it 10 like the weapons? I know it would be far fetched, but is it POSSIBLE for a Wizard with Craft Wonderous Items to potentially put INT on all items they make? Skyrocketing the saves on their spells and spells they could cast per day?
Also does each type of item need a seperate craft or only if stated in the creation? I see Braces of Armor doesn't state that it needs a Craft Magic Arms and Armor, but Braces of Archery does... was this an oversight or intended? Since one gives a combat bonus and the other wouldn't stack with other AC thus intended for caster types?
Whether crafting is "worth it" or not depends almost entirely on your GM and their style of running campaigns. If your GM is going to see to it that you will get what you need regardless, then crafting could well be a wasted feat that could be better spent on combat.
This is one reason crafting isn't part of PFS.
If your GM is more of a story teller who wants to see the party develop believable lives and skills, then crafting can be a very rewarding part of the game. In that sort of game crafting can be a powerful tool to improve the effectiveness of the party.
I suppose you can look at this a couple ways. You could possibly exclude the use of taking ten as this is already a prolonged test. A +3 weapon costs 18,000 so crafting costs 9,000. You can craft 1,000 / day. So on its face you are already taking a lengthy time to carefully create the item
Alternately you could argue that taking ten is essentially carefully doing a skill at ten times the length. So a 9,000 gp sword that would normally take 9 days to create could take 90 days to create. It doesn't specifically say the skill takes ten times as long but its not much of a leap.
Either way it says you can take ten when you have plenty of time and not in immediate danger. Fairly specifically saying that it takes significantly longer to take ten on a skill than normal.
I think you are thinking of the take 20 skill that states taking 20 takes 20 tymes longer cause you are trying to get it perfect.
p. 86 CRB- Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
Taking 10 says nothing about taking 10 tymes longer it just says being careful.
p. 86 CRB- When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10! For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for characters to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure- you know (or expect)that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll(a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
My understanding of spell trigger and completion items, is that as long as someone is available who has the spell pre-requisite to cast into the item on a daily basis for the length of time it takes to make the item, then you can make the item, you don't actually have to know the spell yourself. (and that this also applies to scrolls and potions)That doesn't work. For spell trigger and completion items, you have to know the spell yourself.
For example as a Magus if you chose Craft Wands (a greatly underrated feat) you could cooperate with the cleric to make a wand of Cure Light wounds for 375gp the Ranger to craft a wand of Resist Energy for 375gp and the Paladin to craft of Wand of Lesser Restoration for 375gp....
peterroco is correct:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
Theoretically, one could use Master Craftsman, I believe the feat it is to take Item Creation feats, by scrolls and use UMD to make items without the aid of other casters.
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I want to thank everyone here for this discussion. I am currently looking into playing a witch, and magic item creation was one of the things that I am considering. Right now it is just items like potions, scrolls, or wands. My question is, is there such a thing as having too many item crafting feats? For example, would having Brew Potion, Craft Wand, Craft Arms and Armor, and Craft Woundrous Item be too much?
I fear that it would be taking up feat slots that I could use for other feats like Combat Casting, Extra Hex, or Spell Penetration.
I guess it all depends on how helpful you want to sacrifice your in combat abilities to help the out of combat preparedness. Is there a chance that you can get the group to chip in and possibly take one of the other crafting feats? If they see your willingness to sacrifice a feat to help not only yourself, but the entire party it could open some eyes and they might help you make some things. It also depends on how big the party is and what the group needs. If you build wands and potions will the casters and healers feel under utilized and so forth? While it never hurts to be thinking about helping the party you never want to help to much and make others feel less useful and have them lose interest. I dont know the group or situation, but before you take everything you might want to feel out others they might chip in or might feel it would be to much. I see the benefits and am still struggling with the choice of what feat can I sacrifice to take this Craft Feat. I don't think I could take 3-4 I might be able to squeeze in 2, but any more would just seem to limit my character in other aspects. All in all that is just my personal opinion however, let me know how it goes. Our sessions are rather slow progressing and with the way I work only ever other week we get to play so It will be months before I actually get to try this crafting skill.
Taking every creation feat can weaken your character in later levels unless you have a genial GM that will allow you to craft whatever you want. Some things can be advised against, for example, don't take Craft Rod unless you've got some Meta-magic feats to make the corresponding rods. While there are other useful Rods, Metamagic are the most useful for a caster, and unless you've got the feats to make them, taking Craft Rod will be largely pointless.
Scrolls in particular can be a life saver for low level casters. And even at high levels, having a scroll or two of largely situational spells can be a game changer.
No one really ever prepares Repel Vermin, for instance, but when that swarm is creeping up on you...
Neutralize poison, and a few scrolls of Cure X wounds free up your prepared slots for buffs as needed.
My wizard is playing the Kingmaker campaign, so I have a LOT of time on my hands. If I'm not doing anything else that day, I try to scribe at least 1 scroll. We houseruled that you can scribe 1,000 GP worth of scrolls per day, because it's kind of dumb that scribing that Mage Armor has some how prevented me from doing anything else, magically, in my 22 hour day (Ring of Sustenance ftw!).
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Scribe Scroll (Item Creation)
You can create magic scrolls.
Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.
Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price.
If the scroll has a base price of 250 gp, you can scribe it in 2 hours, so it shouldn't be taking you 1 day if you are scribing a 1st or 2nd level scroll. That is if you are setting the caster level for the scroll as the lowest possible. The higher you set the caster level, the higher the base price. (The base price of a scroll is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 25 gp.) The caster can set a lower caster level if they wish.
If the scroll has a base price of 250 gp, you can scribe it in 2 hours, so it shouldn't be taking you 1 day if you are scribing a 1st or 2nd level scroll. That is if you are setting the caster level for the scroll as the lowest possible. The higher you set the caster level, the higher the base price. (The base price of a scroll is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 25 gp.) The caster can set a lower caster level if they wish.Scribe Scroll (Item Creation)
You can create magic scrolls.
Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.
Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price.
This is true, however..
Scribing a scroll requires 1 day per 1,000 gp of the base price. Although an individual scroll might contain more than one spell, each spell must be scribed as a separate effort, meaning that no more than 1 spell can be scribed in a day.
...and I always scribe multi-use scrolls. I feel it is a waste of a move action to draw a scroll that has 1 spell on it when it could have 3 or 4. For instance, I play the Grand Diplomat in our Kingmaker campaign and I was set up for diplomatic friendly spells. However, we were attacked by trolls, so I pulled out my Scroll of Fire. It contains, 2 Burning Hands, 2 Flaming Spheres, and 2 Fireballs.
Drawing 1 scroll gave me access to 6 spells I hadn't had prepared that day.
So, I scribe a Burning Hands, and by RAW, I'm done for the day. I can't make any potions, I can't work on that magic sword, I can't make a wand, etc.
[Edit]Forgot a point: Because you can only scribe one spell in a day, you can only scribe one scroll in a day. So we decided on the houserule of scribing up to 1,000 gp in scrolls per day. The same rule applies to potions and we generally allow them to mix the totals, so say 500 in scrolls and 500 in potions.