Steel Soul and Poison Saves

[tom jim]

Does the Steel Soul feat

Quote:

Steel Soul

You are especially resistant to magic.

Prerequisites: Dwarf, hardy racial trait.

Benefit: You receive a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. This replaces the normal bonus from the dwarf's hardy racial trait.

Normal: Dwarves normally receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities.

remove the original Dwarven Hardy +2 poison save in addition to increasing the spell and SLA saves from +2 to +4?

[Mort the Cleverly Named]

I don't think it is supposed to. I'd argue that when it says "bonus," it just means the "vs spells" bonus. If it meant that and poison, it would say "bonuses."

[Mage Evolving]

From my understanding of it you just add an additional +2.

[Cayzle]

I disagree! This is "Steel Soul" not "Steel Body." It specifically says "You are especially resistant to magic." Poison is not magic!

The feat replaces the "normal bonus" and the normal bonus is +2 vs poison, spells, and spell-like abilities. As a mere feat, this would be clearly unbalanced if it boosted saves vs spells, spell-like abilities, and poison by +2. I mean, how is that not in almost every way superior to Iron Will? What significant Will saves are not vs spells and spell-like abilities. But take away that +2 vs poison and the feat becomes a reasonable choice as a feat, IMNSHO.

Mort, the "bonus" is +2, singular. The original core ability says, "Hardy: Dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities." That's "bonus" singular in the original. This feat replaces that bonus with a different bonus. Sorry to disagree.

[Pupsocket]

Abilities shouldn't make your character worse.

[wraithstrike]

It does not apply to poison, only to spells and SLA's.

[Movin]

So here's my interpretation on this one.
far as i see.
1. increases bonus VS Spells/SLAS by a +2.
2. replaces the normal bonus from dwarfs Hardy trait.

It replaces the normal bonuses from the SLa/spells section, you don't lose the hardy trait.
Instead the modified hardy trait becomes +4 vs SLa's/spells and +2 vs poisons.

[Morien]

Movin wrote:

So here's my interpretation on this one.

far as i see.
1. increases bonus VS Spells/SLAS by a +2.
2. replaces the normal bonus from dwarfs Hardy trait.

It replaces the normal bonuses from the SLa/spells section, you don't lose the hardy trait.
Instead the modified hardy trait becomes +4 vs SLa's/spells and +2 vs poisons.

Old thread, but I can't find anything official on this one.

Does the Steel Soul feat give an additional +2 to Spells and spell-like abilities AND keep the hardy's +2 save vs. poison.

OR

does it replace the entire Hardy racial trait.

In the former case, the feat adds +2 to a specific pair of things: spells and spell-like abilities. No bonus to anything else. Similar to other feats that add +2 (e.g., Acrobatic, Animal Affinity, Spell penetration).

In the latter, it equals out to a net 0. You give up your saves with Poison to get a further +2 bonus on spells and spell-like abilities.

[ryric]

We've always played it as a dwarf with Steel Soul gets:
+4 saves vs. spells/spell-like abilities
+2 saves vs. poison

I guess you could interpret it differently but I don't think RAI is to penalize a character for taking a feat.

[Morien]

ryric wrote:

We've always played it as a dwarf with Steel Soul gets:

+4 saves vs. spells/spell-like abilities
+2 saves vs. poison

I guess you could interpret it differently but I don't think RAI is to penalize a character for taking a feat.

That is the way I interpret it. Unfortunately, my GM does not always see it the same and won't change RAW for RAI unless it has been "officially" changed. It has been a while since this thread first reared itself, so thought there might be an official FAQ on it, but I can't find it.

So, I should assume it has not been officially interpreted one way or the other?

[Daniel Thrace]

Steel Soul
You are especially resistant to magic.
Prerequisites: Dwarf, hardy racial trait.
Benefit: You receive a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. This replaces the normal bonus from the dwarf's hardy racial trait.
Normal: Dwarves normally receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities.

The feat itself states exactly what it does - it says replaces the "normal" bonus... AND THEN goes on to explain exactly what "normal" bonus it replaced. It replaced the +2 to spells and spell like abilities. It says nothing about replacing the entire trait. If it did the last line of the feat would actually read:

Normal: Dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities.

Since it does not read that (and don't assume a typo) and went to great lengths to show it only replaces the spell and spell like effect bonus, then you keep the +2 vs. poison and get +4 vs. spells and spell like effects.

But honestly, I would just ask the gm to retrain the feat for something he is not going to argue with you about because it is not worth pissing him off for a negligible gain.