This has probably all been said before, but oh well.
Forsight is a horrible spell! i'm planning a diviner (scryer) for my next game, and decided to look through my school spells. it's a small selection but not too bad... until you see ninth level. number of spells: 1. Foresight. and if i get to a high enough level, i heve to take it (or use metamagic to fill the slot. that's looking like a good option)
so what's so bad about it? nothing really, it's a good, balenced third level spell. +2 to ac and reflex and you can't be caught flat footed, for a healthy ten minutes per level. yep, that sounds right for a third level spell... What?!? it's ninth level? Are they CRAZY?!?
so at the same level where the illusionist gets to kill everything in a thirty foot radius, though he can selectively avoid his friends, and transmuters can stop time, and you can even make wishes, Divination gets... a defensive buff which would be fairly average at level three.
WHO DID THIS?!?
if it were +4 to AC, all saves and initiative, and lasted for an hour per level... that's more like it. not a good 9th level spell, but not unuseable. oh, did i forget to mention the benifit that SEEING INTO THE FREEKING FUTURE gives to your initiative? ...*rereads spell discription*... nope. you get NO BONUS to initiative. for being able to see into the future. never suprised or flat footed... not too bad, it sounds like... hang on, i know this... yeah, it sounds kind of similar to the FIRST LEVEL diviner class feature. it's a little better, but by the time a diviner, the only person who'd ever get this spell, gets it he's already always acting in the suprise round and with his +8 to initiative from class and likely improved initiative he's probably going first anyway.
it could have been so much, but at the same level as WISH, CREATE GREATER DEMIPLANE and DOMINATE MONSTER, it just doesn't cut the mustard.
it felt good to get that out of my system. i may yet come back and rant some more so stay tuned.
EDIT: corrected math fail. it's still early over here.
Don't forget as a standard Diviner you already can't be surprised and get half your level to init.
Don't forget as a standard Diviner you already can't be surprised and get half your level to init.
that's already hidden somewhere in the block of text, but good call anyway.
oh, as an adition: WHY does foresight not add +20 to profession (gambler) checks? i mean, you can see into the damned future! that should give you one mother of an edge at any game of chance or for that matter skill!
In theory foresight gives caster immediate warnings whenever there is danger to the target of the spell, but unless GM wishes to roll with it on a plot level it is of little use. Myself I'll houserule it to last for 24 hours once cast and maybe grant higher bonuses (like +4 or maybe even +6). On the other hand I don't intend to let the game come anywhere near the 9th level spells (even including the magic available to NPCs) so it will be probably moot.
BTW: Diviner that reaches that level of spells gets at least +8 to his initiative (half of level 17th required to cast foresight), I'd probably get Improved Initiative just to be on winning side anyway with some bonus from Dex, now enhanced with magic item or two.
oh, as an adition: WHY does foresight not add +20 to profession (gambler) checks? i mean, you can see into the damned future! that should give you one mother of an edge at any game of chance or for that matter skill!
Actually instead of bonus I would allow character to make a check and then decide if he want to follow with it or pass before actually playing. No amount of foresight will help you win if the game is correctly set up.
oh, as an adition: WHY does foresight not add +20 to profession (gambler) checks? i mean, you can see into the damned future! that should give you one mother of an edge at any game of chance or for that matter skill!Actually instead of bonus I would allow character to make a check and then decide if he want to follow with it or pass before actually playing. No amount of foresight will help you win if the game is correctly set up.
unless you're playing roulette. then seeing into the future is an 'i win' button.
My question is why only one at 9th level when every other school has at least 4 or 5 9th level spells.
unless you're playing roulette. then seeing into the future is an 'i win' button.oh, as an adition: WHY does foresight not add +20 to profession (gambler) checks? i mean, you can see into the damned future! that should give you one mother of an edge at any game of chance or for that matter skill!Actually instead of bonus I would allow character to make a check and then decide if he want to follow with it or pass before actually playing. No amount of foresight will help you win if the game is correctly set up.
I agree in general. However foresight does not specify how much into future it sees. It's quite possible that the two or more rounds* delay between closing betting and the ball stopping could be placing the result beyond the range of the precognition. Accident or deliberate design on the game (i.e. roulette) designers?
*I haven't played roulette for at least 10 years and even then it was only a few times - Blackjack had much better odds. I admit that my judgement of actual time between closing bets and ball stoping is sketchy but I am 95% sure it was more than 12-15 seconds.
unless you're playing roulette. then seeing into the future is an 'i win' button.oh, as an adition: WHY does foresight not add +20 to profession (gambler) checks? i mean, you can see into the damned future! that should give you one mother of an edge at any game of chance or for that matter skill!Actually instead of bonus I would allow character to make a check and then decide if he want to follow with it or pass before actually playing. No amount of foresight will help you win if the game is correctly set up.I agree in general. However foresight does not specify how much into future it sees. It's quite possible that the two or more rounds* delay between closing betting and the ball stopping could be placing the result beyond the range of the precognition. Accident or deliberate design on the game (i.e. roulette) designers?
*I haven't played roulette for at least 10 years and even then it was only a few times - Blackjack had much better odds. I admit that my judgement of actual time between closing bets and ball stoping is sketchy but I am 95% sure it was more than 12-15 seconds.
Listen to this dragon, for he speaks the truth. even so, there are many games where seeing the future would give you an edge, however slight.
Listen to this dragon, for he speaks the truth. even so, there are many games where seeing the future would give you an edge, however slight.
Actually, now I think of it, in the light of my short-time experience with casino games Blackjack would benefit from foresight much better than roulette.
Of course assuming that I correctly judged foresight precognition view window to about one round.Still it would be hard to justify +20 bonus to Profession check because most organized games have specific rules that allow removal of people that seem to be too good at winning and casino-jumping might be limited by rather short duration of foresight 200 minutes at 20th level might be too short to justify +20 bonus to daily check when one plays for minor winnings across the town (if you can sustain it's duration for 6-8 hours through various methods, including multiple castings then it changes the odds greatly). In case of high-stake games such bonus could be implemented but the profit would be determined differently. Now I think that gambling might be closer to Perform rules-wise and offer similar benefits but require certain financial investment on the players part.
Eh, I think it should be hour/level, but otherwise don't have a problem with it. The other 9th level spells are all just overpowered. Not being flat footed or surprised is pretty nice, there's immediate action abilities/spells characters may have that can foil an attack but can't be used if you're not aware of it.
Once again though a diviner base would not be surprised and with his +8 init stands a good chance to go first and in three more levels he is always going on a 30+dex+feats+other. So he is rarely even gonna be flat-footed for very long. Heck take the Lookout teamwork feat with someone with a good perception and you even have the chance to get full round actions during surprise rounds.
In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself
This might be why the spell is useful even if not great, but I have often had trouble that I get to act first in the surprise round and no ones there. I don't know what to do for all I know we are about to be attacked by a rat that is not worth a spell (my GM has done that). The might even warn you about ambushes and poisons attempts.
i know my dm would run it with the bonus written, and say that everything else is fluff. which makes this foresight massively bad as a nineth level spell.
but i'm in the mood to do a bit more ranting so be warned.
Spell level. haste is one third of the spell level of foresight.
Duration. Forsight lasts considerably longer than haste.
target. Haste can buff the whole party. Foresight buffs you, and is all but useless with a mechanics only DM when cast on another.
Flat bonuses. Forsight: +2 insight bonus (does not stack with other insight bonuses) to AC and Reflex saves, cannot be caught flat footed and can act in surprise round. Haste: +1 ac attack and reflex saves which stacks with similar bonuses, +1 attack, +30 foot speed for all forms of movement including bonus to jump distance.
Ambiguity. Haste: none. Foresight: no definiton of surprised (it could be argued that foresight stops you from being surprised when your patron is revealed to be your nemisis in disguise) no definition of how best to defend yourself (is that what gives you +2 ac and reflex, or is it a seperate clause entirely?) and no defined benifit to casting it on someone else (Player: i pull them back from the trap before they fall in. so they don't need a reflex save right?
DM FROM HELL: nope, it doesn't say that, you've grabbed him and are pulled in with him. both of you make reflex saves!)
so unless your DM is reasonable in his interperatation of the ambiguities of the spell, haste is mechanically a better buff (bonuses to more things, bonuses stack, affects multiple targets)
I think the spell was left open to GM adjudication on purpose after looking at it again, but I think they left it to open.
In the very few cases that I've played games high enough level for it to matter, I've usually seen it run and run it myself as "listed bonus, plus things like 'you should protect yourself from fire', or 'you should align your weapons with law', or 'you should avoid the edges of the room', before kicking in the door." Still singularly unimpressive for a ninth-level spell - and would be even for a much lower-level spell - but it's something.
One issue with high level divination spells is that they can de-rail the GMs plans by revealing too much information, removing risk, wasting hours of the GM's real life efforts, and abruptly removing the final chapters of the characters' campaign. High level divinations can auto-solve mysteries, disrupt NPC plots and schemes, and remove the challenges provided by puzzles.
It would be nice if there were high level divinations that provided distinct utilitarion effects that didn't totally disrupt the game. For example, spells that tell you what spells are cast on a creature, what powers and abilities a specific monster has, maybe bonuses to Knowledge and Spellcraft checks. Maybe spells that boost Perception, Diplomacy (gather information), Linguistics, or Sense Motive (understand hidden messages).
Maybe spells that let you get a glimpse of the future, allowing you to act instantly (perform an action as an immediate action) or prevent an opponent from completing an action (immediate action disruption, counter-attack, counter-spell, defensive action, etc.).
The biggest problem I have with Foresight is this: look at the 8th level spell Moment of Prescience. I'll wait. Yes, you are reading that right: +caster level (max of 25) to one roll of your choice be it attack, CMB, opposed ability, or skill check. OR you apply the bonus to your AC even if flat-footed or suprised.
BUT it gets better! MoP lasts for 1 hour/level until it is discharged. And using that bonus isn't an immediate action; it isn't a swift action; it isn't a standard action. It is a free action that you can suddenly declare active even if it is not your turn.
And it is one level lower than Foresight.
Makes you sad.
Master Arminas
As I read Forsight it is very powerful.
It provides warning to any kind of danger and also provides information on the best course of action to take.
"As you reach for the door handle and are about to open the door an images flashes in your mind. The image is that of a great red dragon unleashing a cone of foul flames upon your party."
"As you raise the flask to your lips to drink the potion the witch gave you that will heal your wounds you get a sense of nausia and a smell a foul poisonous stench coming from the bottle. You know that it is poisoned."
"As you are about to tell the Duke that you have retreived the lost relic you understand that he seeks the relic for himself and only plans to kill the lot of you and claim it."
"As you reach for the glowing black orb you feel a strong presence within it and can sense the hatred of a fould entity trapped within waiting to possess the next person to touch the orb."
Sure not the mystical sledge hammer that Wish is, nor as reality bending as Timestop, but forsight is a pretty need effect. Just because GMs only apply the flat bonuses and ignore the other information provided by the spell doesnt make the spell itself bad its just bad how they run the spell in their games.
we all agree that, if used RAI then its a decent spell. the catch is that its RAW relies too much on DM interperatation. as i said above, the writing is ambiguous and non specific in such a way that many DMs would interperate it as long-winded fluff for some crappy bonuses.
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IIRC, at least the bonus type from foresight is an insight bonus, so it probably stacks with everything else you have. I used it quite a bit as a cleric in a high level 3.0 game for that reason, plus protection from suprise attacks. It can be a part of a "my AC makes the GM cry" build, where you need every little bit you can get.
I agree it's still weak for a 9th level spell, especially if you have a strict GM.
