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Would anyone else actually like to potentially see Shifters from PF1 as core in PF2, so long as it didn't replace traditional "core" classes (Fighter, Wizard, Monk, Sorcerer, Barbarian, etc etc etc)? I realize an idea like this might get me skewered, and I've actually had no opportunity to do anything more than read about Shifter and theorycraft some character ideas, but the idea of it is unique in D&D yet so simple I'm flabbergasted that I haven't seen a similar class already.
I dunno, the idea of a class that's more of a martial-focused Druid type of character seems like it would be really interesting, and with Shifter being brand-spanking new and something they've already done work on recently, I can't imagine it would be difficult to do some fine-tuning with what's already there and make a new version for a new Pathfinder.
Note that I'm saying this as someone who's eagerly hoping to hear about Monk and Sorcerer, and wishes that Magus could somehow be core. But Shifter is something that just seems delightfully unique to Pathfinder without needing crazy specialized rulesets (no offense Gunslinger), and I just think it would be cool to have that as part of PF2E from the start.
Thoughts?
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See it done at all? Sure.
See it in core? Yeah, it's probably just you.
If i could have a say, i certanly wouldnt put this class at the top of the list of next to be added classes.
Chances are the druid will cover this class from the get go anyway.
See it done at all? Sure.
See it in core? Yeah, it's probably just you.
I mean it's certainly entirely plausible I'm the only one actually interested in the idea (unlikely given laws of probability, but plausible). Again, I wouldn't want to see it knock any other core classes out of being added in, but it's something undeniably unique to Pathfinder and I just see the idea of giving people a martial alternative to the Druid as having a certain appeal.
If i could have a say, i certanly wouldnt put this class at the top of the list of next to be added classes.
Chances are the druid will cover this class from the get go anyway.
I'd actually really rather they not combine Shifter and Druid. Druid already has spellcasting as well as the option of an animal companion, domain powers and spells, and druidic herbalism. Whatever Paizo does with Druid, I'd prefer to see them focus on what makes Druid unique and all its own, expanding on the Druid thematic rather than just stuff the two classes together.
I'd actually really rather they not combine Shifter and Druid. Druid already has spellcasting as well as the option of an animal companion, domain powers and spells, and druidic herbalism. Whatever Paizo does with Druid, I'd prefer to see them focus on what makes Druid unique and all its own, expanding on the Druid thematic rather than just stuff the two classes together.
Wild shape actually is part of the druid as well as all those things you listed, shifter is simply focused on it, this doesnt mean the druid is likely to lose it.
Well, hard to say how much of a need there is for the shifter before we even get to see the druid. Similar to the hunter.
Wild shape actually is part of the druid as well as all those things you listed, shifter is simply focused on it, this doesnt mean the druid is likely to lose it.
Well, hard to say how much of a need there is for the shifter before we even get to see the druid. Similar to the hunter.
Oh no, that's not what I meant at all. Wild Shape is certainly a core Druid power, I just meant that rather than riffing the abilities used to make the martial-focused Shifter unique and effective, I'd rather Paizo expand on what makes the Druid itself unique. Spellcasting, animal companions, their literally divine connection to nature; that sort of thing. Wild Shape would certainly be part of that, but for a caster-based class like Druid could easily be taken in an entirely separate and inventive direction.
Heh, if it was just me, I'd combine Shifter with the wishes from the Centaur/Mermaid thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v45m?When-are-mermaids-and-centaurs-coming) for more interesting mythological shapes to shift into... :) :)
You mean like half-shifting? Certainly interesting, though the Shifter Minor Aspect ability might already cover that in terms of functionality. But hey with PF2 giving a lot more class-based feats who knows how that could turn out. Maybe make one particular aspect permanent in some manner, changing your physical appearance as a result.
If i could have a say, i certanly wouldnt put this class at the top of the list of next to be added classes.
Chances are the druid will cover this class from the get go anyway.
Not really, unless there is an archetype that enables a druid to ditch spellcasting.
What they could do: instead of the druid getting wild shape as a class feature, it gets fleshed out more as a line of spells. Kind of like how the PF1 druid wild shape already just mostly let you cast certain shapeshift spells as a supernatural ability, but with the spells hopefully being better and more flexible this time... More like Dreamscarred's take on the Metamorphosis psionic power line. Also like how mutagen is now a line of elixir formulae for the PF2 alchemist that they can just learn as "spells" rather than a class feature.
The druid can then focus on the other stuff that makes them cool, while druids who still want to shapeshift get the wild shaping spells. And shifter can then be an archetype that, like the PF1 druid, gets those wild shaping spells for free as their archetype feature. And since some PF2 archetypes are cross class, this Shifter archetype could then be applied to the druid, ranger, barbarian...
My assumption is that wildshape is going to be a line of powers. It makes sense that druids would spend their spell-points on that.
I hope the shifter doesn't end up being just an archetype. In fact the only classes I wouldn't mind being archetypes would be arcanist(wizard), cavalier(fighter), skald(bard), slayer(rogue), shaman(druid), and warpriest(cleric).
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I think the Shifter operates in a distinctive enough creative space that it deserves to be its own class.
Just because we can make something an archetype of something else doesn't mean that we should.
To step back briefly it'd be nice to see it fixed fully for PF1 before PF2 is worked on more, but I understand how priorities work and I have no illusions.
If everyone is having full Bab from Day One in PF2, then Druid gets closer to Shifter, doesn't it?
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This class is gonna need a looooooooooooong playtest after the last fiasco. Don't expect it soon compared to everything else that is actually decent.
This class is gonna need a looooooooooooong playtest after the last fiasco. Don't expect it soon compared to everything else that is actually decent.
I feel, though, that since we're rewriting the rules for "natural attacks" and "polymorph effects" for the new edition, we might as well have in mind that there will eventually be a class focusing on these specific things.
This class is gonna need a looooooooooooong playtest after the last fiasco. Don't expect it soon compared to everything else that is actually decent.I feel, though, that since we're rewriting the rules for "natural attacks" and "polymorph effects" for the new edition, we might as well have in mind that there will eventually be a class focusing on these specific things.
Now you made me think about how Proficiency interacts with natural weapons. Is everyone proficient in them? At what rank? Do you need training and investment like they were full weapons? Does every monster have different rank on it?
Natural weapons sure open a can of worms... But either way it's unlikely that they end up as complicated as last edition.
I agree with Cabbage. And I'm sure more than a few things in the last few years, everything from Unchained on really, were written with one eye on PF2 looming over the horizon, similar to how I can look at the elemental blasts on the kineticist and see the damage progression of Starfinder mathed out (not that one led directly to the other; more the result of people working on more than one project at once).
Vigilante in particular feels like a test-balloon for how classes will be set up in PF2, with two tracks of class feats and class abilities. Ironically, because of its already modular design, Vigilante seems primed to become an archetype that can be applied to any class (edit: gunslingers too, but I think that was accidental rather than deliberate). Shifters are in a similar boat; I assume Paizo knew about the incoming class powers system, could they have been testing to see how we react to a class that is largely just other class's powers? If so, how did the test go?
Yeah, I would so rather this thread be about the Shifter race.
but I agree, I wonder how much actual design space there is for the shifter class once the changes to Wild Shape, natural attacks, and all things PF2 get rolled out.
Yeah, I would so rather this thread be about the Shifter race.
but I agree, I wonder how much actual design space there is for the shifter class once the changes to Wild Shape, natural attacks, and all things PF2 get rolled out.
Oh Shifter the race. Yeah, totally. Assuming you mean SKinwalkers, they can be in core. I'd rather have them than Goblins. Plus if there was ever an ancestry that begged to be fleshed out with ancestry feats, that's the one.
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Lol. Yes, skinwalkers. I've been looking back over Eberron stuff lately.
... carry on, people. Nothing to see here.
I had to double check the name myself, so I totally get it.
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The idea of a dedicated shapeshifter class is a cool one. Probably more interesting to be than half the ACG and Occult Adventures classes.
But given the implementation was weak, the PF1 class is unpopular, making it unlikely to gain any traction. And with its short lifespan before the edition changed, I'm uncertain how many people would see one in play and have fond feelings...
I'd love a shapeshifter in core, but not necessarily just a "martial druid." I'd like a class dedicated to realizing a variety of shapeshifting character concepts.
Natural weapons sure open a can of worms... But either way it's unlikely that they end up as complicated as last edition.
I find natural attacks to be simpler than BAB based ones: No iteratives, no two-weapon fighting rules, no fuss with 3/2 Str modifier. Exceptions exist, of course - we are talking about Pathfinder here.
Now there are primary and secondary natural attacks, but that's still simpler than two-handed vs. one-handed (with varying Str multiplier to damage) vs. two-weapon fighting (with varying attack penalties). That's without looking at the corner case of more than 2 arms...
Okay, I honestly did not expect this to draw so much attention. The fact that it did is actually pretty cool. It's also really cool to see so many different opinions about it as well.
From what I'm reading and what I saw on the d20pfsrd site, I'm noticing that Shifter didn't exactly have the most graceful of landings. It already got several kinds of errata and all of it seemed to be buffs. Is that why some people don't seem particularly fond of it?
Its initial showing only had about two levels where it could shine compared with Druid (4th and 5th, where it can be larger than Druid) other than greater accuracy. The changes gave it a few more distinctions.
Its initial showing only had about two levels where it could shine compared with Druid (4th and 5th, where it can be larger than Druid) other than greater accuracy. The changes gave it a few more distinctions.
Sounds about right. I admit after reading about both Shifters and Skinwalkers, I was pretty keen on making one. Still sort of am, but the fact that Skinwalkers take a standard action to transform, then Shifter Aspect and Shifter Claws each take a swift action, two turns in order to "turn on" (or one turn with the Unchained Improved Action Economy) seems a little too slow/impractical.
The idea of "but it would be a bit better with the new action economy" is actually what led me to the idea of Shifters being in PF2E, since PF2E is using the Improved Action Economy as a basis for its own. Plus, just like I've never seen anything like a Warlock in Pathfinder (granted Witch might be the closest, I dunno), I don't recall ever seeing anything like the Shifter in any other D&D system. Starting PF2E by throwing in something unique to Paizo seems like a good idea, to really emphasize how this is starting new.
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If they designed the druid and spell casting in general in a more modular way it would be really easy to build a druid that had barely any spellcasting but was a wild shape master, which is what I want the shifter to be.
I think you could do some pretty satisfying shapeshifing combat with Druid or Ranger if they got the appropriate cantrips/fighting styles for it. That is certainly something I would dig seeing in the core game.
A cantrip (or cantrips) that lets You grow scaling claws and gain other benefits seems alright.