Gunslinger Build? whadda ya think?

[Haster]

OK, first, base idea... a gunslinger loosely based on a combination spike from Cowboy Bebop and the PC from Alpha Protocol (pistol / martial art fighting style)

This is what I come up with; I think it rocks. But, I am looking for advice b/c I have never played Pathfinder, though 20+ years with D&D up to 4e. From what I can tell, PF is balanced pretty differently. (I like what I see so far...)

Build: Gunslinger (pistolero) / Monk (master of many styles)

STATS:
Str 10 (or 12?)
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Chr 8 (or 7?)

Human

Level 1:(GS1)
Gunsmithing, Deeds, Grit, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload (pistol reloads as a move action, free action with alchem ammo)

Level 2:(M1)
Imp. Unarmed Strike, monk wis def (wont use, will have armor), Crane Style Feat (only -2 for fighting def and +1 dodge bonus when doing so), Fuse Style (can have 2 styles active at once), Stunning Fist (mostly will be wasted)

Level 3:(M2)
Evasion (duh), Crane Wing Feat (deflect 1 melee attack when fighting defensively), Rapid Shot

Level 4:(GS2)
Nimble +1

Level 5:(GS3)
More Deeds, Snapping Turtle Style Feat (+1 shield bonus w/ 1 free hand)

Level 6:(GS4)
Deadly Aim Feat (-1 attack, +2 damage)

Level 7:(GS5)
Dex to Dmg, LEVEL FEAT (?)

Thats it so far.

Attacking, at 7th level, assuming a 22 Dex (+6), BAB +6, point blank +1/+1 and a +2 gun for +15/+10 (rapid shot +13/+13/+8) another -1 if deadly shooting
and damage of 1D8+9(+11 deadly shot) +2D6 if using GS deed, each shot

Now, the low range of the pistol requires a lot of close range fighting (to get touch attack), witch fits my character style, so lots of fighting defensively, as my monk and style feats show. soooo...
Attacking Defensively (-2 attack, +2 AC), at 7th level, same assumptions...
+13/+8 (Rapid shot is -2, deadly shot is -1, +10/+10/+5) Damage of 1D8+11 each shot.

Bottom Line with standard operating procedure at character level 7...

*AC 27 (Mithral Shirt +2, Dex 6, ring +1, nimble +1, fight def +3)
-1 melee attack per round is deflected automatically

*Saves: Fort +9 , Ref +13 , Will +6 (iron will?)

*Attacks are vs. Touch within 20' (40' if enough cash for +3 weapon)

*HP 52 (12+6+6+7+7+7+7, all favored class bonus points to skills)
- is this good for Pathfinder at level 7? seems like min for a fighter...

*Attacks: static: +15/+10 (1D8+9/1D8+9)
- with rapid shot: +13/+13/+8 (1D8+9/1D8+9/1D8+9)
- With deadly shot: +12/+12/+7 (1D8+11/1D8+11/1D8+11)
- Fighting defensively: +10/+10/+5 (1D8+11/1D8+11/1D8+11)
- can mix and match, but assume almost always at touch attack and will not always have to fight defensively...

*GS Deed, Precise Shot
- 1 grit for +2D6 dmg

Questions? Comments? How often should I expect to run into things with good touch attack AC's? (same as D&D?) Am I missing anything?

[Jen the GM]

The HP problem mainly comes from monk, but it depends on your group. Is there any kind of synergy with other group members that you could rely on?

[blackbloodtroll]

Is there an archetype of monk you can stack on top of master of many styles to better suite your build?

[Hecknoshow]

The hungry ghost monk might be worth looking at as well as the monk of the sacred mountain, though the second one gives up evasion which you seem pretty attached to.

[grandpoobah]

As your DM I'm going to remind you that entering any stance is a swift action (and cannot be done out of combat). Getting two stances up will take two swift action (over two rounds). I don't think you're going to make it to Monk8 for the 3 stances in a single swift action.

Combining Archetypes is always good, you never know what random ability you can squeeze in for no cost.

The Ki monk gets you a cool Ki ability at level 3, but looks like you're not planning on going past Monk2

As BBtrool said, Sacred mountain lets you swap Evasion for Toughness and +1 natural armor. Might be worth it at low levels (A ring of Evasion is still 25,000gp).

[Haster]

Thanks for the input guys.

The game is 4 or so months away (still have a WoD game going on), so dont know if I will have support, but with 5 of us, I am sure I will, but I know a good archer or raging brute could 1 shot me at equal level right now. (or close to it)

I've looked at the 2 monk archetypes, but they dont really work for me. I dont plan to dip more into monk (maybe to 4, but dont want to loose any more bab...) so Hungry Monk wont work; the punishing kick is weak for my build (low DC) and I would not get any other of its abilities.

The Sacred Mountain is better, and doese add the nat amror and shores up my hit points, but I would loose out on Crane style and the melee deflect, which, right now I really like. (assuming I am staying out of melee range, but within a move action, so being able to deflect a charging power attach would be nice) May take toughness though with my open level feat at 7th... maybe.

The snapping turtle style was just the best suited of a lot of less than tasty options left. The styles all tend to focus on stuff I just wont be using really, and/or would not be good at anyway.

[spalding]

When I did this I took Sohei monk, and grabbed dodge and mobility as my monk bonus feats. This meant at 3rd level I could take Deft Shootist.

I would suggest going human for point blank shot and precise shot at level 1.

With this I would go to level 8 in Sohei and 3 levels of fighter (weapon master) for early weapon training. This allows you to flurry with the pistol, and use dueling gloves to get more bonuses to hit and damage.

[Haster]

Hmm, Fighter(weapon master) at 8, 9 & 10 is an idea...

That would get me Dodge, Mobility and Deft Shootist, 3D10+6HP (27, more with a +Con item), another +1 dodge bonus (+4 total) and no attacks of opp for firing and reloading in melee range. Oh, and another +3 fort save.

As well, I would get +1 attack / +1 dmg / +1 CMD (vs disarm/sunder) and that would go up to +3 with the gloves of the duelist.

Nice. You get almost as much just going gunslinger 6, 7, and 8, plus you get closer to the lvl 11 trip ability... meh, fighter (weap master) 3 is better.

BUT, you would not be able to flurry with a firearm, using the sohei ability; it limits you to only a specific grouping of weapons, and firearms are not included...

[spalding]

Yes you would:

Quote:

At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.

Quote:

Weapon Training (Ex)

At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd.

This ability replaces Armor Training 1, 2, 3 and 4.

As you can see at level 6 you can flurry with any weapon you have weapon training in -- and weapon master fighter gains weapon training at level 3.

As such you can flurry with any weapon you have weapon training in -- no matter where the weapon training came from.

[Haster]

hmm. yes, I see that.

The GM in me wants to call that un-intended synergy. =-) Also, I think the GM who will be running this game (Grandpoobah from above) would agree with my reaction. heh.

But your right, you could as it is written.

[spalding]

If it's any solace remember the following in this case:

1. It's basically two weapon fighing with a gun -- something you could already do.

2. It's been through the ringer on the forums already with no errata to remove it (or even any statement of intention to remove it -- even from the specific designer of the archetype in question).

[Haster]

yeah, its really not too bad, considering. I suppose my reaction comes from my head hurting already from imagining all the single barrel re-loading going on in 6 seconds.

Suspend disbelief! tis just a game, we came to have fun, not argue! (Tell myself that before every game...)

[Christopher Rowe 151]

I like to imagine the Pathfinder guns being of the break action variety (think single barreled break action shotgun). Being a cowboy action shooting firearms enthusiast, I've seen guys who keep their off hand (gloved of course) on top of the barrel to steady the weapon with two or three extra shells in between their fingers and firing with their main hand (working the trigger with the middle finger so the index finger can open the break action when reloading), extracting the shell with the thumb and index finger of the offhand and quickly rolling one of the shells from between their fingers to their thumb and index fingers for loading. I know this sounds confusing but it is quite fast when done correctly. This type of shooting requires speed to do well in competition. It's a hard task that takes a lot of manual dexterity but could easily be considered believable with a 16 to 18 Dex and the Rapid Reload feat to represent the training.

To be fair, I have a hard time with the two gun machine gun characters but I've seen a single barreled speed shooter get off three shots in six seconds on a target 20 feet away (albeit with a break action coach shotgun). But hey, this is fantasy so go with it.