I'm playing around with a character I like and would really like to play. Concept: He's the adopted son of a evil overlord who's going through his teenage rebellion faze and is thus out adventuring. There's only one problem: I just don't get enough feats to build him like I want. He's a summoner taking dual-blooded Serpentine and undead bloodlines, and the man is built to be an enchanter, a melee fighter and a summoner.
However, I just love this character so much I don't care that he's so unfocused, and so I find myself playing with build after build trying to find ways of cutting out unnecessary feats without compromising the overall-concept.
I know I can give him craft rod and create rods of meta-magic feats, effectively cutting out the need to take them as actual feats, so my question is are there other items out there I don't know about that can likewise help me cut out feats? Maybe something that increases spell penetration, enchantment DCs or caster levels so I don't have to worry about spell focus, spell penetration and spell specialization as much? The more feats I can replace with items the easier it will be to carry off this character, so anything would help.
In case anyone cares, the reason he's so feat heavy is I'm thinking of giving him the extra summons tree (3 feats) and the Eldritch Heritage, Abyssal feats (4,) and since as a human sorcerer that's half the feats my character will ever get, you can understand why I'm trying to be judicious with the rest of them.
My advice would be to ask yourself "Where do I want this character 75% of the time" and then put your effort into that. Just today, i helped a sorcerer build an abyssal bloodline so at level 3, he could get the freakishly long limes characteristic, and add 5 feet to his attack range. This way, he would be a melee combat caster. So, i had him drop his charisma down to 14, and bump his Constitution and strength up. This way, when he takes his levels in (i think) monk, he is all set o hit the ground running with high STR and CON.
Not the concern and doesn't apply. Anyone have an answer to the question?
The only items I know that replace feats for casters are the metamagic rods since Paizo does not like for items to replace feats.
I checked the books to make sure nothing slipped in, and I didn't see anything.
The Robe of the Archmagi will give you the equivalent of Spell Penetration. Granted, its hugely expensive (75k listed price), but it fits your criteria.
Taking a step back, wouldn't this be more effective as a Bard, if you want to fight in melee and cast enchantments? Does take the edge off summoning though.
Metamagic feats are generally much worse to having a rod of metamagic.
Otherwise, your best bet would be using items to shore up your normally poor melee competency, and focus otherwise on casting.
Seriously, upon reading your topic I immediately thought of: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html (last row if you're lazy)
Alternatively, if enchantments aren't as important as summons/melee, you could be a Summoner. They barely depend on Cha, so you could afford decent physical scores, and rock a 3/4 BAB.
I have his character already decided, and I DON'T want people telling me to re-cast him. He is not a Bard, he's a sorcerer.
Specifically, he's an undead/serpentine sorcerer with the Abyssal bloodline Eldritch Heritage feats. This means already he gains:
the ability to effect humanoid corporeal undead, animals, magical animals and monstrous humanoids with his language based and humanoid-only mind-altering effects (hold person, dominate person, suggestion, etc.)
3 natural attacks (two flaming claws and a poison bite)
Better summonings (not until 17th level, but then he becomes one of the only people who can summon multiple monsters off the 9th level list)
+6 inherent strength bonus
and just for fun he can talk to snakes, has a snake familiar, can turn into a ghost and can summon skeletal arms.
That means he's already built to be: a melee fighter, a summoner and an enchanter. I just want some help deciding on items and feats to complete what he already, because of his class and Abyssal heritage, does well naturally.
He's going to fold like a paper tiger if he goes into melee, maybe you'll have a chance if you get armor profs and Arcane Armor Training with Celestial Armor? The best defensive arcane spell you can get early is Mirror Image, so you could try using that.
You should only try to melee opponents that aren't your own size though, preferably unarmed innocents or other casters. And most opponents will be your size or larger. So just because you can grow claws, doesn't mean you should be trying to use them too often.
He's going to fold like a paper tiger if he goes into melee, maybe you'll have a chance if you get armor profs and Arcane Armor Training with Celestial Armor? The best defensive arcane spell you can get early is Mirror Image, so you could try using that.
You should only try to melee opponents that aren't your own size though, preferably unarmed innocents or other casters. And most opponents will be your size or larger. So just because you can grow claws, doesn't mean you should be trying to use them too often.
No, I should get the giant form spell and transformation and a rod of quicken spell. Round one I cast both on myself, round two I grow three natural attacks w/ power attack and waylay people. I know it's not the makings of the best melee fighter, but I like playing characters who are versatile and can survive whatever gets thrown at them. Yes I probably won't be doing the above often, but I can see lots of fun with dropping summonings and walls, turning incorporeal and flying through the floor to pop up behind casters, killing them quickly with three natural attacks.
The point isn't to be the best at one thing, the point is to create a character who is viable in every situation. If I really wanted to just make a melee fighter-caster, I'd do Urban barbarian/shapechange wizard/Eldritch Knight w/ abyssal feats, arcane armor and the beast totem. Ludicrous strength, decent BAB and HP and more natural attacks than I'd ever run out of.
You won't be viable in melee just by using giant form, and the other things, and while power attack is normally a good feat. You will miss more often due to a low BAB, unless the GM throws lower CR monsters just to make sure can hit them.
Bro if you can use a low BAB character to make a decent(not even good) melee combatant you will be famous(well here on the boards anyway). :)
A caster is also not going to die quickly from your 3 natural attacks. He will simply take himself out of your threat area after he takes the hits.
Back on topic:
Possible feats to take to make melee easier: Great Fortitude, Improved Init, Weapon Focus(claw,bite), Defensive Combat Training. These are for melee except for improved init. That one is always good to have. :)
PS:I guessed that you can get around a +22 to hit at level 20 before power attack. With power attack it is a +18. You will also be needing to bypass DR.
edit:changed "expect" to "except"
My advice? Buy a pearly white Ioun Stone and get it embedded. That will give you regeneration. Later in levels I suggest getting into eldritch knight to get the BAB you need. In addition you'll want diehard and the deathless mastery feats.
Cause without this the only thing you'll need to buy is a box and a hole in the ground.
You won't be viable in melee just by using giant form, and the other things, and while power attack is normally a good feat. You will miss more often due to a low BAB, unless the GM throws lower CR monsters just to make sure can hit them.
Bro if you can use a low BAB character to make a decent(not even good) melee combatant you will be famous(well here on the boards anyway). :)
A caster is also not going to die quickly from your 3 natural attacks. He will simply take himself out of your threat area after he takes the hits.
Back on topic:
Possible feats to take to make melee easier: Great Fortitude, Improved Init, Weapon Focus(claw,bite), Defensive Combat Training. These are for melee expect for improved init. That one is always good to have. :)PS:I guessed that you can get around a +22 to hit at level 20 before power attack. With power attack it is a +18. You will also be needing to bypass DR.
Not just giant form, but if you have a few rounds and a quicken rod to buff you can get giant form, calcific touch, wreath of blades, greater invisibility and transformation. If that combined with three natural attacks can't take down an enemy, nothing can.
And like I said, melee isn't his main focus, it's just one of his emergency fall-backs. If I wanted him to be principally melee I'd go Magus or Eldritch Knight.
Seriously, why is everyone ignoring my question just to bash the validity of the melee-focused build that I'm NOT making?
I answered your question. :)
We are not bashing it. We just don't believe it can be done effectively. People are also having a hard time recommending feats because nobody ever does a build like this. They would just get all magic/caster based feats.
I have seen how some of the people here GM, and while I don't know your GM I can only go by how I GM, and how others run their games. In most of our games a caster(low BAB) in melee is going to die.
As to the spell you mentioned:
All those spells require some buffing in advance which is not always an option. Greater invis, well invis as a whole get less effective at higher levels.
I just looked up wreath of blades. That is not a lot of damage especially since a reflex save is involved.
Calcific touch is really nice, but if the monster is a melee brute you will die before it will. If it's a caster it won't stick around to let you keep hitting it.
PS:We know the build is not melee focused(not the first option). We are saying the idea of even going into melee at all instead of running away is a good way to die.
Most of the comments locked in on the following statement:
He's a summoner taking dual-blooded Serpentine and undead bloodlines, and the man is built to be an enchanter, a melee fighter and a summoner.
That sounds like you plan to fight before you plan to run if someone engages you in combat. <--Not an accusation, just how it looks.
Also mentioning giant form, and the +6 inherent bonus to strength for something that is not melee-focused related is confusing.In short:Our message is avoid all melee.
edit:bad spelling
That's nice.
In most games I play, you end up doing everything at a moment's notice, so having a character who can surprise someone with three attacks is a really, really good thing. I've played way too many games where the uncharismatic guy had to do the talking and the caster had to grapple, so I'm planning him with a decent melee option.
That doesn't mean I'm going to be taking many feats in melee. In fact, I never mentioned spending feats in melee I don't think. I think I mentioned Power attack as a theoretical option. Let's pretend I never mentioned it and go back to the original question:
I want him to be a full-caster, but I'm already spending 7 feats on summoning feats and Abyssal bloodline feats. The rest of those feats can get eaten up quickly (improved familiar, 2 spell penetration, meta-magic feats, item creation feats, spell perfection,) so I'm looking for ways to get some of those great things casters want (improved penetration, improved DCs, meta-magic feats,) given the fact that I've got so few feats to spend on them.
Craft rod, check. Robe of the Arch Magi, check. Anything else?
Robe of the Archmagi is a huge waste of money.
Can you purchase rods or do you have the craft them, in this campaign?
Unless your GM is stingy with loot I would avoid the item creation feats unless it is also a part of the character's background.
If you going to go with the improved familiar then I would also take the feat that allows you to give the familiar an evolution point as though it were an eidolon.
The evolution I would choose is skilled. It gives a +8 to one skill, which would be UMD for me.
Your familiar can then more easily use wands if it has hands.
IIRC Spell Perfection only applies to one spell.
I still can't think of any item that gives more feats. I had forgotten about the robe of the archmagi because of how overpriced I think it is.
Robe of the Archmagi is a huge waste of money.
Can you purchase rods or do you have the craft them, in this campaign?
Disagree:
Armor bonus +5 = 25,000gpResistance bonus +4 = 16,000gp
SR 18 = 60,000gp
Spell Penetration Bonus +2 = 8,000 (minimum -- based on weapon costs)
Meas it should be 109,000 of an item minimum -- then increase everything but the SR by half again (multiple features in a single item) and then perhaps drop 30% for the alignment restriction.
What's more while you can get a +8 armor bonus and +5 resistance bonus this you are getting in one slot that you have little other use for -- thus leaving the arms and shoulder slots open for other items.
SR is overpriced. By the time you get SR that you can afford any caster or monster you meet will be able to easily bypass it, normally on a 5 or less, and you still have to worry about one of you buddies rolling against the SR and getting a 5 or less at the worst possible time if they are trying to help you. You can turn it off, but it takes a standard action to do so.
While I agree the SR by itself isn't a great option, it isn't horrible either (especially as a rider effect) -- the earliest you'll be looking at robes of the Archmagi is level 14 (when it is half your wealth -- I would argue a good investment at this point since it helps a spread of abilities).
CR 15 has a maximum caster level of 16 (iirc) with an average much lower (around 12) which gives about a 30% failure rate (and that's going up a CR). Granted it's not going to stop a BBEG but it will help with the mooks and equal CR monsters you encounter.
When combined with the armor bonus (again not great but really your a mage) the resistance bonus, the bonus to spell penetration rolls I still recommend it and finally the item slots saved I would still recommend it.
Neothelid CR 15-Caster level 20-does not fail
Nalfeshnee CR 14 caster level 14 -fails on a 3 or less
Crag Linnorm CR 14 caster level 15-fails on a 3 or less
Demon, Glabrezu CR 13 caster level 12-fails on a 6
Ice Devil CR 13 caster level 14-fails on a 4
Storm Giant CR 13 caster level 19-does not fail.
I agree the slots might be worth it depending on what other items you want. I did not think about that.
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If you want honest feedback about why people are ignoring it, I read the first few posts, saw your attitude, and lost any motivation I had to help.
Good luck!
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Thanks everyone, this helps.
Weables, I'm sorry for the attitude, I'm just tired of being told to change my characters. It seems no one can ask for help on these boards without first being told what's wrong with their character concept, and I'll admit I've gotten a bit tired of it. Not that the advice wouldn't be great if I were going for optimization of a mechanic instead of fleshing out a pre-determined character, but I really was hoping for help with the particular problem at hand.
Sorry for putting you off like that, I didn't mean to.
Neothelid CR 15-Caster level 20-does not fail
Nalfeshnee CR 14 caster level 14 -fails on a 3 or less
Crag Linnorm CR 14 caster level 15-fails on a 3 or less
Demon, Glabrezu CR 13 caster level 12-fails on a 6
Ice Devil CR 13 caster level 14-fails on a 4
Storm Giant CR 13 caster level 19-does not fail.I agree the slots might be worth it depending on what other items you want. I did not think about that.
I didn't say it would work on every monster -- for good reason (as you pointed out). I simply stated that on average you'll get some use out of it -- now I will fully agree that by itself the SR is a non-started... it simply wouldn't be worth it.
As a throw in though it's alright -- however certainly not what I would be buying the robes for.
Also something the SR can be helpful with is blocking out stupidity like 12 rogues each throwing a bead from a necklace of fireballs at you, and other low caster level items.
There not that many monsters at higher level to choose from, but the bad ones look like the ones I posted. I did not mention angels because PC's don't have to fight them.
You have another point with the low level items though. I guess SR is better than I thought, but I still don't like it that much. That I will admit is a personal hangup though.
Yeah -- it's not a 'game changer' in the way immunity is, and it can be a hindrance too... but like any other tool it has its place and time and if used correctly can really be something. As a final icing on the cake I'll take it -- as the primary purpose of an item... not so much.
One of the reasons I like the SR of the robes so much is that its enough to keep the chaff out of your hair without causing problems for other casters in your party.
Thanks everyone, this helps.
Weables, I'm sorry for the attitude, I'm just tired of being told to change my characters. It seems no one can ask for help on these boards without first being told what's wrong with their character concept, and I'll admit I've gotten a bit tired of it. Not that the advice wouldn't be great if I were going for optimization of a mechanic instead of fleshing out a pre-determined character, but I really was hoping for help with the particular problem at hand.
Sorry for putting you off like that, I didn't mean to.
Here's my advice for you, lose the connection you have to class fluff. Your character could excel as a bard class, and in character no one would ever know the difference. You need to do what is best for realizing this concept. You're asking for people to help make the build viable, but then telling them to do that within a nonviable frame.
I have no idea what you mean when you say if you were going for optimization. 1) Being a bard doesn't have to change the predetermined character and 2) if you don't want help optimizing why are you asking for advice? Optimizing is making a good decision instead of a bad one, not looking for rules cheeze.
To reiterate, NO ONE said anything was wrong with your concept, they said your current build didn't make that concept work. You're the one failing the concept not them.
-"Yeah, he's a an enchanter, a melee fighter and a summoner."
-"That's funny, he seems to suck at all of those. He could have been good at that if he were a bard."
-"HE'S NOT A BARD, HE'S A SORCERER"
-"You know the only difference is the name of the class right?"
I'm playing around with a character I like and would really like to play. Concept: He's the adopted son of a evil overlord who's going through his teenage rebellion faze and is thus out adventuring. There's only one problem: I just don't get enough feats to build him like I want. He's a summoner taking dual-blooded Serpentine and undead bloodlines, and the man is built to be an enchanter, a melee fighter and a summoner.
However, I just love this character so much I don't care that he's so unfocused, and so I find myself playing with build after build trying to find ways of cutting out unnecessary feats without compromising the overall-concept.
I know I can give him craft rod and create rods of meta-magic feats, effectively cutting out the need to take them as actual feats, so my question is are there other items out there I don't know about that can likewise help me cut out feats? Maybe something that increases spell penetration, enchantment DCs or caster levels so I don't have to worry about spell focus, spell penetration and spell specialization as much? The more feats I can replace with items the easier it will be to carry off this character, so anything would help.
In case anyone cares, the reason he's so feat heavy is I'm thinking of giving him the extra summons tree (3 feats) and the Eldritch Heritage, Abyssal feats (4,) and since as a human sorcerer that's half the feats my character will ever get, you can understand why I'm trying to be judicious with the rest of them.
Is this for a solo campaign? If not, what is the rest of your party supposed to be doing while you're enchanting and summoning and fighting in the melee and probably breezing through social encounters with a ginormous Charisma? Healing/buffing you?
I'm not just trying to be glib or troll. Seriously, if you pull this off, what's left? Ranged damage can be filled by a summoned creature, as can tanking, as can healing (albeit badly). Sneaking can be done by a critter or circumvented by sacrificing a critter. Pretty much all that's left is straight up blasting, which won't be necessary if you are an effective summoner/melee.
Putting aside whether or not this can be done, what are you hoping to accomplish? Who is going to want to play with you?
I wasn't asking for help with the build, I was just curious what items there were that, like meta-magic rods, helps a caster out by letting him not worry so much about feats.
Sorry for the confusion, I guess I should have mentioned nothing about the character in question, as that seems to have led to a lot of misunderstanding.
And honestly I never intended him to be optimized as a melee fighter, enchanter and summoner all in one, otherwise I would go for the bard. I wanted him to be a sorcerer who could control undead, had a snake familiar, and had extra summoning abilities. I was surprised to find that by building him like that also meant he'd have to gain extra enchanting abilities, three natural attacks and a +6 to strength.
I didn't want help changing the build because the melee fighting and enchanting were extra fluff not originally intended in the character's design, hence I didn't want to change his class to give those extra bits more emphasis.
I wasn't asking for help with the build, I was just curious what items there were that, like meta-magic rods, helps a caster out by letting him not worry so much about feats.
Sorry for the confusion, I guess I should have mentioned nothing about the character in question, as that seems to have led to a lot of misunderstanding.
And honestly I never intended him to be optimized as a melee fighter, enchanter and summoner all in one, otherwise I would go for the bard. I wanted him to be a sorcerer who could control undead, had a snake familiar, and had extra summoning abilities. I was surprised to find that by building him like that also meant he'd have to gain extra enchanting abilities, three natural attacks and a +6 to strength.
I didn't want help changing the build because the melee fighting and enchanting were extra fluff not originally intended in the character's design, hence I didn't want to change his class to give those extra bits more emphasis.
Well, you could still atleast have been more appreciative that people were offering their help even unsolicited, and by going out of their way. So you intend to talk about being a good fighter but not being able to back it up? That does sound like an interesting character (I'm being serious).
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Rather than chastise you like many of the other posters I'm going to actually answer your question.
Dweomer's Essense can replace Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, although it's a bit pricey.
Just ignore most of these guys. Coming to the advice forums and asking for not-optimization help is usually just asking for frustration. I approve of your non-melee sorcerer (who wants to be able to melee occasionally).
Rather than chastise you like many of the other posters I'm going to actually answer your question.
Dweomer's Essense can replace Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, although it's a bit pricey.
Just ignore most of these guys. Coming to the advice forums and asking for not-optimization help is usually just asking for frustration. I approve of your non-melee sorcerer (who wants to be able to melee occasionally).
Not everyone chastised, definitely, not most of us. The norm on the boards when you ask for advice is optimization help, so you must clarify when you don't want it. Often times a player wants to know the best way to make a concept way so saying what about trying ____ instead.
I should not have even had to explain that. SMH
Hmm... I like the concept. I can even appreciate the desire to create an emergency fall-back plan if you get forced into melee and can't flee. In fact I've played a few melee-centric castys in my time (my Envenomed/Pestilence elven Sorc w/ accursed eldritch heritage being one of them), and I can tell you that they can actually be quite debilitating to a foe that gets too close... So.. Don't let these guys tell you that casty-melee without being a Magus or Bard is suicide.
Feral has it right though, asking for help on these forums for a non-optimized build is like asking an ice cream shop for a club sandwich. The forum's focus seems to be on near-munchkin levels of optimization here.
In the mean time, I can only think of two feats that would provide some help to your survivability. Dodge and Mobility.
As for items replacing... I suggest Caster's Tattoo. Maybe even Reservoir Tattoo. Both out of Inner Sea Magic. I've fallen in love with them, honestly.
Aura faint (lesser), moderate (normal), or strong (greater) evocation; CL 5th (lesser), 11th (normal), or 17th (greater) Slot none; Price 6,000 gp (lesser), 21,000 gp (normal), 48,000 gp (greater)
DESCRIPTION
A caster’s tattoo is infused with potential magical energy that aids in casting spells that normally utilize verbal and somatic components. Once per day, a spellcaster may activate her caster’s tattoo as a swift action to automatically enhance the next spell she casts in that round with both the Still Spell and Silent Spell feats. When she casts the spell, the caster’s tattoo flares with light for a moment, then grows faint and faded—it replenishes its energy in 24 hours, after which it becomes bold and colorful and can be used again. Required material components or foci must be in the creature’s possession to cast the spell (and are consumed as normal), but need not be held when the spell is cast.
Caster’s tattoos are available in lesser, standard, and greater versions, allowing the modified casting of a spell of up to 3rd level, 6th level, or 9th level respectively.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Inscribe Magical Tattoo, Silent Spell, Still Spell; Cost 3,000 gp (lesser), 10,500 gp (normal), 24,000 gp (greater)
Tattoo, Reservoir
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th Slot none; Price 10,000 gp
DESCRIPTION
Once per day as a standard action, the bearer can transfer into the tattoo an ongoing single-target spell (of up to 3rd level). The spell must be one the bearer cast on itself. While stored in the tattoo, the spell’s effects are suppressed, and the spell’s duration is similarly suspended. As a standard action, the bearer can bring the spell back into effect on itself. Spells stored in reservoir tattoos are lost when the bearer next prepares spells.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Inscribe Magical Tattoo; Cost 5,000 gp
Reservoir will let you hold Mage Armor, Shield, or something of the like when combat is over, so you can retain some usage of it (Haste would be a good one to keep). Caster's Tattoo is a Sorcerer's best friend, especially if you happen to, say, get captured. Pop off a fireball to incinerate the guard and blast the bars to wrecked heaps of scrap metal. Of course, I'm not sure the official consensus but every player I know personally says Eschew Materials overrides the item stating it needs the cheap material components on one's person.
Hang strong brother. Us concept builders will weather the optimize-minded storm!
Rather than chastise you like many of the other posters I'm going to actually answer your question.
Dweomer's Essense can replace Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, although it's a bit pricey.
Just ignore most of these guys. Coming to the advice forums and asking for not-optimization help is usually just asking for frustration. I approve of your non-melee sorcerer (who wants to be able to melee occasionally).
This is optimization. Optimizing isn't about destroying a concept to get +1 to hit, it's about maximizing the output of the concept. This is a concept of using items instead of feats. By recommending an item that replaces a feat and does so well, you have helped to optimize that concept. No one here has a problem witht he OP played a caster who can melee, they were simply informing him that the way in which he hopes to do it will make him suck at melee and possibly suck at being a caster. I have a suspicion that that is NOT what the OP wants to happen.
I say this as someone who frequently plays character concepts that aren't prime for being optimized to the teeth, but as someone who likes to take a concept (Like my magus/arcane archer who used traits to be more like a ranger and played as a switch hitter ranged/melee/magic) and make sure it doesn't fall flat because I didn't do it in a way that showed its strengths instead of making everything a weakness.