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I am thinking about making a monk for a PFS game. I want to know the best way to optimize them for melee damage and high AC. There are so many archetypes and styles etc that I'm at a bit of a loss. I am okay with multiclass dips, and with using a manufactured weapon if necessary.
I'm not asking for full builds, I can do most of the grunt work myself. Just feat chains or archetypes that synthesize well together. If we look at 6th level as a snapshot, most optimized melee builds I make have AC of 25+ and can reliably do 20some damage a round in melee. Can the monk achieve this as well?
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You want a temple sword. 18 strength with power attack, a +1 temple sword (held in both hands for -1, +3), and go Hungry Ghost Monk so that you can leech ki at the same time as you spend ki for an extra attack.
Basically if you go temple sword with power attack, a high strength and Hungry Ghost Monk, you'll be pretty effective in melee. Keep wisdom middling-high (14?) and Dex and Con healthy as well and you won't have to worry about survivability.
That doesn't sound too good for survivability, Mergy.
One of the things to keep in mind about the monk is that you have mobility, and you are strongest if you use it. If you match yourself against the enemy bruiser, you won't be trading blows as well as a fighter would. Especially on PFS PB. But if you harass the enemies standing at the edge of combat, the casters and archers, you'll find yourself quite well-suited for the task.
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You want a temple sword. 18 strength with power attack, a +1 temple sword (held in both hands for -1, +3), and go Hungry Ghost Monk so that you can leech ki at the same time as you spend ki for an extra attack.
Basically if you go temple sword with power attack, a high strength and Hungry Ghost Monk, you'll be pretty effective in melee. Keep wisdom middling-high (14?) and Dex and Con healthy as well and you won't have to worry about survivability.
Sounds fun. I'll whip up a sample build later to see if anyone can beat it.
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I've got a player who's going with a few levels of monk (master of many styles, dragon and crane) and several more of fighter (brawler). He seems to be doing quite well in the melee damage department - dragon lets him move around quickly and crane gives him extra attacks on those who swing at him. He also took two-weapon fighting to make up for the lost flurry of blows.
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There are a couple of good PF Monk guides out there. Basically you don't want to use mobility - stand still and use Flurry of Blows so you can attack with full BAB.
Because you can flurry with a temple sword wielded in 2 hands you get a constant 3:1 trade on Power Attack - something neither the 2 weapon fighter or 2 handed fighter will be getting.
I think the first two feats in the Dragon style chain will give you 1.5x STR mod to damage with unarmed strikes - which is great because as your unarmed damage scales up you will want to mix more into your flurries - especially once you are high enough level for Medusa's wrath.
Human & Dwarf are your best races - STR & WIS should be your higher stats, you can dump CHA and semi-dump INT if you're Human (I hate to sacrifice too many skill points with a low INT so I wouldn't go less then 10 with a Dwarf but would settle for an 8 or 9 with a Human).
An idea I've been flirting with is a Cleric 1 or Paladin 4 of Shelyn before going Monk rest of the way so you can take 'Crusader's Flurry' and use a Glaive as your favoured weapon... Still gives you the 3:1 Power Attack advantage AND synergizes nicely with Combat Reflexes (one of your early Monk bonus feats) giving you Flurry, Reach and lots of possibilities for cashing in on AoO's.
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I've been thinking about a build like this as well.
This is what I've got so far:
Monk 1 Martial Artist
Fighter 2-5 Brawler
Barbarian 1
Strength 20
Feats
Wpn focus unarmed strike
Wpn specialization unarmed strike
Two wpn fighting
Double Slice
Power Attack
Single melee hit, +12 (+10 PATK), 1d6+10+(4 PATK), with +2 bumps in rage
Full round 10(+8 PATK), 1d6+10+(4 PATK), with +2 bumps in rage.
Dump Wis, wear armor. Future level continue as Martial Artist, maybe on extra level as barbarian. Wear a pair of Keen cestuses, 1 mithril, and 1 adamantine and your set.
Not a perfect build, still working out some kinks, but I can imagine the fun of just beating through things with nearly bare hands.
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Amrit
LN Human
Mnk 6 (Hungry Ghost)
1st: Monk; Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Toughness, Blind-Fight (Human), Dodge (Bonus), Punishing Kick (Class), Traits (Reactionary, Honored Fist of the Society)
2nd: Monk; Combat Reflexes (Bonus), Evasion
3rd: Monk; Fast Movement, Maneuver Training, Still Mind, Power Attack
4th: Monk; Ki Pool (Magic) 6 Points, Slow Fall 20', +1 Str
5th: Monk; High Jump, Steal Ki, Furious Focus, Ki Pool 7 Points
6th: Monk; Slow Fall 30', Ki Pool 8 Points, Improved Trip (Bonus)
Str: 20
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 18
Cha: 7
Init:+3 (+1 Dex, +2 Trait) Speed: 50 ft.
HP: 53 (6d8+14) AC: 21 (+2 Armor, +1 Dex, +1 Dodge, +4 Wis, +1 Monk, +1 NA, +1 Deflection)
Fort: +7 (+5 base, +2 Con) Ref: +6 (+5 base, +1 Dex) Will: +9 (+5 base, +4 Wis) +2 vs Enchantment, Evasion
BAB: +4 CMB: +11, +14 Trip (+6 BAB, +5 Str) CMD: 26, 28 Trip (+5 Str, +1 Dex, +6 BAB, +1 Dodge, +1 Monk)
Skills: Acrobatics +10 (6 ranks, 1 Dex, 3 Class), Climb +8 (1 Rank, 4 Str, 3 Class), Knowledge (History) +4 (1 Rank, 3 Class), Knowledge (Religion) +4 (1 Rank, 3 Class), Perception +13 (6 Ranks, 4 Wis, 3 Class), Sense Motive +13 (6 Ranks, 4 Wis, 3 Class), Stealth +10 (6 Ranks, 1 Dex, 3 Class), Swim +11 (3 Ranks, 5 Str, 3 Class)
Attack w/ PA:
Temple Sword +10 (1d8+13 19-20x2)
Flurry w/ PA:
Temple Sword +10/+8/+3 (1d8+13 19-20x2)
Flurry w/ PA and Ki Point:
Temple Sword +10/+8/+8/+3 (1d8+13 19-20x2)
[.60(17.5)+.6*.1(17.5)]+2[.5(17.5)+.5*.1(17.5)]+[.25(17.5)+.25*.1(17.5)]
[10.5+1.05]+2[8.75+.87]+[4.37+.43]= 25.97 DPR on Ki Flurry
Gear: Amulet of Nat. Armor +1 (2000), Belt of Giant Str +2 (4000), Bracers of Armor +2 (4000), Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 (4000), Mstwk. Temple Sword (330), Ring of Protection +1 (2000), Potion of Enlarge Person x6 (300)
Total: 16630
Gold: 16697
This guy would be fun to play I think. AC a little low for my normal tastes, but he's good at tripping and very mobile. Saves are all nice and he is stealthy and observant. Is this the best the monk can be at 6th level with the amount of gold I have listed? Any other cool builds for monks out there?
Edit: He would always sacrifice the +3 attack at the end for a trip attempt against any non-prone opponent. With that +4 to hit from everything being flat on their bums, his DPR would go up significantly.
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Because you can flurry with a temple sword wielded in 2 hands you get a constant 3:1 trade on Power Attack - something neither the 2 weapon fighter or 2 handed fighter will be getting.
To clarify as what I said isn't clear; The 2-handed fighter will be getting 3:1 on Power attack - but he'll have half as many attacks/round as the Monk. The two weapon fighter will only be getting 2:1 (primary hand) and 1:1 (off-hand).
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I've been thinking about a build like this as well.
This is what I've got so far:
Monk 1 Martial Artist
Fighter 2-5 Brawler
Barbarian 1
Strength 20
Feats
Wpn focus unarmed strike
Wpn specialization unarmed strike
Two wpn fighting
Double Slice
Power Attack
Single melee hit, +12 (+10 PATK), 1d6+10+(4 PATK), with +2 bumps in rage
Full round 10(+8 PATK), 1d6+10+(4 PATK), with +2 bumps in rage.
Dump Wis, wear armor. Future level continue as Martial Artist, maybe on extra level as barbarian. Wear a pair of Keen cestuses, 1 mithril, and 1 adamantine and your set.Not a perfect build, still working out some kinks, but I can imagine the fun of just beating through things with nearly bare hands.
Cool. Make him a half-orc with the toothy alternate racial. Crushing and biting through everything in your path. "Hulk smash!!"
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Petty, he was asking for damage. If he wants to be more stable, magic items help with that.
Here's a 6th level Hungry Ghost Monk; he's got mobility, but the mobility is a means to close with the enemy and full attack as much as possible.
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +11
DEFENCE
AC 23, touch 21, flat-footed 20 (+4 armour, +1 deflection, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 monk, +2 natural armour, +2 Wis)
Hp 57 (6d8+24)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +8 (+2 vs enchantments)
OFFENCE
Speed 50 ft.
Melee +1 temple sword +11 (1d8+8/19-20) or flurry of blows +11/+11/+6 (1d8+6/19-20)
(power attack) +1 temple sword +9 (1d8+14/19-20) or flurry of blows +9/+9/+4 (1d8+12/19-20)
or unarmed strike +9 (1d8+5) or flurry of blows +9/+9/+4 (1d8+5)
Ranged mwk shuriken +7 (1d2+5) or flurry of blows +7/+7/+2 (1d2+5)
Special Attacks flurry of blows, punishing kick (6/day, DC 15 or prone)
STATISTICS
Str 20 (+5), Dex 14 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 10 (+0), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 8 (-1)
Base Atk +4; CMB +11; CMD 24
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Nimble Moves, Power Attack, Punishing Kick, Stand Still, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Temple Sword)
Skills Acrobatics +11, K (History) +9, K (Religion) +9, Perception +11, Sense Motive +11
Traits Adopted, Honoured Fist of the Society, Warrior of Old
Languages Common
SQ bastion stance, fast movement, iron limb defence, manoeuvre training, steal ki, still mind, ki pool (6 points, magic)
Gear +1 temple sword, mwk shuriken (20), amulet of natural armour +1, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +1, wand of mage armour, 3796gp for customization
16,000gp
4,000gp belt of giant strength +2
2,330gp +1 Temple Sword
750gp wand of mage armour
2,000gp ring of protection +1
2,000gp amulet of natural armour +1
1,000gp cloak of resistance +1
124gp mwk shuriken (20)
1 Combat Reflexes (monk), Improved Unarmed Strike (monk), Nimble Moves (human), Punishing Kick (ghost monk), Stand Still
2 Dodge (monk), Toughness (mountain)
3 Power Attack
4
5 Weapon Focus (Temple Sword)
6 Mobility (monk)
Great AC (assuming you have an arcane caster that can work the wand of mage armour), lots of hit points (for a d8), a deadly full attack, and tons of mobility in order to close and deliver. Stand Still is a neat little feat that doesn't see enough action, and combined with Nimble Moves it's a lot easier to get off those full attacks. When he stays in one spot his AC goes up to 25 (which I believe was the target), and his DPR against a CR 6 enemy is 25.41, and when he spends a ki point to take an extra attack it shoots up to 35.39.
EDIT: Forgot about the +1 damage from the +1 sword >_>
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Here's a build I'm working on that you could use with many of the archetypes - I like the Ki Mystic & Qingcong(sp?) versions myself;
1st: Improved Initiative, HB: Defensive Combat Training, MB: Improved Grapple
MB: Dodge
2nd: Power Attack
3rd: Dragon Style
MB: Improved Bull Rush
4th: Dragon Ferocity
5th: Greater Grapple
MB: Medusa's Wrath
6th: Greater Bull Rush
7th: Dimensional Agility
MB: Improved Critical
8th: Dimensional Assault
9th: Dimensional Dervish
I haven't gotten much further then this - but Dimensional Savant is a good next choice for feats... Early levels you use your Temple Sword almost exclusively - working in the unarmed strikes as your damage scales up and you add feats like Dragon Ferocity & Medusa's Wrath.
Petty, he was asking for damage. If he wants to be more stable, magic items help with that.
Here's a 6th level Hungry Ghost Monk; he's got mobility, but the mobility is a means to close with the enemy and full attack as much as possible.
** spoiler omitted **...
He was askin' for both "I want to know the best way to optimize them for melee damage and high AC. "
But it seems he's fine with it as is, so there's no problem.
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Well if you look at my build it's 19 AC unbuffed, 23 with mage armour (which he gains by wand used by an ally), and 25 when standing and flurrying. So that's some survivability.
Monks have two conflicting class abilities, so you have to decide which you're focusing on. You can either be low damage and mobile all the time, or you can use the mobility just to get into the damage zone.
EDIT: But you're right of course. I saw high damage and totally ignored he was also asking for high AC.
Well 23 buffed is pretty good for level 6. A CR 6 enemy's high attack is on average +12, and low attack +8. A 23 means he's being hit 50% of the time, but if he's fighting a heavy hitter, there's the option to use ki points for extra AC. The hungry ghost monk gets a lot of flexibility with his ki, because every time he kills an enemy he gets a point back.
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Petty, he was asking for damage. If he wants to be more stable, magic items help with that.
Here's a 6th level Hungry Ghost Monk; he's got mobility, but the mobility is a means to close with the enemy and full attack as much as possible.
** spoiler omitted **...
After looking over your build I incorporated some elements of it into mine. Ended up with this
Amrit
LN Human
Mnk 6 (Hungry Ghost of the Mountain)
1st: Monk; Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Agile Moves, Blind-Fight (Human), Dodge (Bonus), Punishing Kick (Class), Traits (Candidate for Perfection, Honored Fist of the Society)
2nd: Monk; Combat Reflexes (Bonus), Iron Monk, Toughness (Class)
3rd: Monk; Fast Movement, Maneuver Training, Still Mind, Power Attack
4th: Monk; Ki Pool (Magic) 6 Points, Bastion Stance, +1 Str
5th: Monk; Iron Limb Defence, Steal Ki, Furious Focus, Ki Pool 7 Points
6th: Monk; Ki Pool 8 Points, Improved Trip (Bonus)
Str: 20
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 18
Cha: 7
Init:+3 (+1 Dex, +2 Trait) Speed: 50 ft.
HP: 57 (6d8+14) AC: 21 (+2 Armor, +1 Dex, +1 Dodge, +4 Wis, +1 Monk, +1 NA, +1 Deflection)
Fort: +7 (+5 base, +2 Con) Ref: +6 (+5 base, +1 Dex) Will: +9 (+5 base, +4 Wis) +2 vs Enchantment, Evasion
BAB: +4 CMB: +11, +14 Trip (+6 BAB, +5 Str) CMD: 26, 28 Trip (+5 Str, +1 Dex, +6 BAB, +1 Dodge, +1 Monk)
Skills: Acrobatics +10 (6 ranks, 1 Dex, 3 Class), Climb +8 (1 Rank, 4 Str, 3 Class), Knowledge (History) +4 (1 Rank, 3 Class), Knowledge (Religion) +4 (1 Rank, 3 Class), Perception +13 (6 Ranks, 4 Wis, 3 Class), Sense Motive +13 (6 Ranks, 4 Wis, 3 Class), Stealth +10 (6 Ranks, 1 Dex, 3 Class), Swim +11 (3 Ranks, 5 Str, 3 Class)
Attack w/ PA:
Temple Sword +10 (1d8+14 19-20x2)
Flurry w/ PA:
Temple Sword +10/+8/+3 (1d8+14 19-20x2)
Flurry w/ PA and Ki Point:
Temple Sword +10/+8/+8/+3 (1d8+14 19-20x2)
Gear: Belt of Giant Str +2 (4000), Bracers of Armor +2 (4000), Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 (4000), +1 Temple Sword (2330), Ring of Protection +1 (2000), Potion of Enlarge Person x6 (300)
Total: 16630
Gold: 16697
I would go for the wand of Mage Armor, but I already know that no one in the group would be able to use it.
Attack routine would go something like
Round 1: Drink potion you had in hand, move into good position
Round 2: Move and Punishing Kick, or Flurry w/ trip at the end
Round 3: Flurry w/ trip at the end if opponent not prone, repeat. Then on the next one
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Well if you look at my build it's 19 AC unbuffed, 23 with mage armour (which he gains by wand used by an ally), and 25 when standing and flurrying. So that's some survivability.
Monks have two conflicting class abilities, so you have to decide which you're focusing on. You can either be low damage and mobile all the time, or you can use the mobility just to get into the damage zone.
EDIT: But you're right of course. I saw high damage and totally ignored he was also asking for high AC.
Well 23 buffed is pretty good for level 6. A CR 6 enemy's high attack is on average +12, and low attack +8. A 23 means he's being hit 50% of the time, but if he's fighting a heavy hitter, there's the option to use ki points for extra AC. The hungry ghost monk gets a lot of flexibility with his ki, because every time he kills an enemy he gets a point back.
I dunno if it was you Mergy, but I built a Synthesist based off some stuff someone with the same avatar as you put on another thread a while back. Compared to him these monks look like plastic toys. The only thing I've found that can compare damage wise is a Magus going all out Nova. Which of course isn't sustainable. The Synthesist has a 29 AC all day long and can drop haste to make it 30.
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You'll need Combat Reflexes to get Stand Still. You also can't take both Reactionary and Honoured Fist of the Society (they're both combat traits), which is why I did my cheesy "adopted by elves to get Warrior of Old".
I would not give up hit points for ki points. You're going to be trading blows with every enemy, so you want every hit point you can squeeze out. The hungry ghost monk actually has way more freedom with his ki than any other monk, so I wouldn't worry about it quite so much.
What's the party look like that you don't have anyone with access to mage armour? :( Sad. There's also the option of being dangerously curious and putting points in yourself. You'd be able to pull off a +8 at level 6 with your 7 charisma, which would be enough to buff yourself up (albeit unreliably).
And you won't get any argument from me that the synthesist is powerful. The only thing the monk has on the synthesist is saving throws, while the synthesist has so much stuff on the monk.
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You'll need Combat Reflexes to get Stand Still. You also can't take both Reactionary and Honoured Fist of the Society (they're both combat traits), which is why I did my cheesy "adopted by elves to get Warrior of Old".
I would not give up hit points for ki points. You're going to be trading blows with every enemy, so you want every hit point you can squeeze out. The hungry ghost monk actually has way more freedom with his ki than any other monk, so I wouldn't worry about it quite so much.
What's the party look like that you don't have anyone with access to mage armour? :( Sad. There's also the option of being dangerously curious and putting points in yourself. You'd be able to pull off a +8 at level 6 with your 7 charisma, which would be enough to buff yourself up (albeit unreliably).
And you won't get any argument from me that the synthesist is powerful. The only thing the monk has on the synthesist is saving throws, while the synthesist has so much stuff on the monk.
There is a Ninja, Samurai/Bard/DD, and a Cleric of Asmodeus. I'm normally DM, I'll be replacing a Wizard. Points noted on the feats and traits. Thanks for catching that.
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I was going to play the Synthesist. But after soloing an Ogre Mage with him last night at 5th level, my wife who DMed the fight (normally the player of the Wizard) pointed out that the other people in the group might get character envy if I stride in with something so much more powerful than them. Since I'm normally the group's DM I don't want them to feel like I'm lording my power over them or something despite the character being built with the same exact rules and wealth as them. -shrug- So I wanted to explore some other options and I haven't played a Monk since 3.5e
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I would do the UMD thing, or see if the bard can do it. It's a cheaper armour bonus than the bracers of armour, and it's more effective for a really long time. Worth it in my opinion.
Tripping is good, but I'd fit it right at the start of combat (although first I'd use up my punishing kick attempts). If the enemy is prone at the start of your attack, that means you have a +4 to hit for the rest of your attacks.
One thing I just caught looking at your monk: a mountain monk loses evasion; he gives it up for Toughness as a bonus feat and +1 natural armour.
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I would do the UMD thing, or see if the bard can do it. It's a cheaper armour bonus than the bracers of armour, and it's more effective for a really long time. Worth it in my opinion.
Tripping is good, but I'd fit it right at the start of combat (although first I'd use up my punishing kick attempts). If the enemy is prone at the start of your attack, that means you have a +4 to hit for the rest of your attacks.
One thing I just caught looking at your monk: a mountain monk loses evasion; he gives it up for Toughness as a bonus feat and +1 natural armour.
UMD is a good idea. I don't want to give up my +10 attack on a trip attempt. I'd rather have them standing for the first 3 attacks and use an AOO from being enlarged or my +3 attack to trip them. Then all the attacks the next round or the attacks of my allies will likely finish it off.
I changed Evasion on my version, but forgot to copy paste it here. Thanks.
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I would say Weapon Focus over Furious Focus. It's true that on your moving attacks you'll be +1 to attack, but our goal is the full attack, and Weapon Focus helps that a lot more. By all means grab Furious Focus as well (probably at level 7), but I think the priority is the full attack.
Makes sense to me. Thanks. Here's a totally different monk. Focused on shutting down one opponent, preferably an enemy spell caster or ranged fighter.
Helgen Hammerfist
LN Dwarf (Magic Resistant alternate racial trait)
Mnk 6 (Maneuver Master)
1st: Mnk; Agile Maneuvers, Bonus Feat (Improved Grapple), Flurry of Maneuvers, Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Traits (Serpentine Squeeze, Reactionary)
2nd: Mnk; Bonus Feat (Combat Reflexes), Evasion
3rd: Mnk; Stunning Pin, Fast Movement, Maneuver Defense, Maneuver Training
4th: Mnk; Ki Pool (4 Points), Reliable Maneuver, +1 Cha, Unarmed dmg 1d8, +1 AC Bonus
5th: Mnk; Meditative Maneuver, Chokehold, High Jump,
6th: Mnk; Bonus Feat (Greater Grapple), Ki Pool (5 Points)
Str: 12
Dex: 20
Con: 16
Int: 8
WIs: 14
Cha: 6
Init:+7 (+5 Dex, +2 Trait) Speed: 40 ft Darkvision
HP: 57 (6d8+24) AC: 20 (+5 Dex, +2 Wis, +1 Monk, +1 NA, +1 Deflection)
Fort: +8 (+5 base, +3 con) Ref: +9 (+5 base, +4 Dex) Will: +7 (+5 base, +2 wis) Evasion, SR 11
BAB: +4/+6 CMB: +10, +14 grapple (+6 BAB, +4 Dex) CMD: 24, 28 v Grapple (+6 BAB, +1 Monk, +1 Str, +5 Dex, +1 deflection)
Full Attack:
Unarmed Strike +5 (1d8+4 x2)
or
Grapple +14/+12 (1d8+4) w/ Swift action
Stunning Fist DC 15 6/Day
If already grappled, make a -5 check to pin and choke. If pinned 1 Ki and swift action to Stunning Fist.
Gear: Amulet of Mighty Fists (Agile) (5,000), 50' Hempen Rope (Cut Into 10 5' pieces), Ring of Protection +1 (2000), Amulet of NA +1 (2000), Belt of Dex +2 (4000)
Total: 13000
Gold: 16697
Find opponent, get to them. Pin them ASAP, and proceed to choke them to death while breaking their bones with subsequent grapple flurries.
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Not as big a fan, only because I have a beef with dexterity and finesse builds. Consider that your amulet of mighty fists is 5000gp, and that you've burnt a feat on Agile Manoeuvres.
Now if you go with the strength version of this
Str 20 (17 +1 level +2 belt)
Dex 13
Con 16 (14 +2 racial)
Int 8
Wis 15 (13 +2 racial)
Cha 6 (8 -2 racial)
We have an extra feat lying around which we can put into Dodge, and we have 5000gp kicking around, which we can throw into bracers of armour +2 and a cloak of resistance +1.
We have lost 1 AC and gained +1 to saves and a lot more damage. It also means we can carry a stock of enlarge person potions around to buff our grapple up even more (Before it was only a slight boost because of the -2 to dexterity, whereas now it's a no-brainer).
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Not as big a fan, only because I have a beef with dexterity and finesse builds. Consider that your amulet of mighty fists is 5000gp, and that you've burnt a feat on Agile Manoeuvres.
Now if you go with the strength version of this
Str 20 (17 +1 level +2 belt)
Dex 13
Con 16 (14 +2 racial)
Int 8
Wis 15 (13 +2 racial)
Cha 6 (8 -2 racial)We have an extra feat lying around which we can put into Dodge, and we have 5000gp kicking around, which we can throw into bracers of armour +2 and a cloak of resistance +1.
We have lost 1 AC and gained +1 to saves and a lot more damage. It also means we can carry a stock of enlarge person potions around to buff our grapple up even more (Before it was only a slight boost because of the -2 to dexterity, whereas now it's a no-brainer).
Right once again man. -queue Darth Vader voice- Most impressive...
Wanna look at my Synthesist build and see if you notice anything there?
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I've posted this idea in several threads right after Ultimate Combat hit the stores, but I love it enough to post again. Its all about early feat entry to gain abilities well below the level a standard monk would have them.Go Fighter/Monk and use the unarmed fighter with a Quigong Master of Many Styles.
Here is a potential feat progression to level 6.
F1 = power attack, weapon focus unarmed (HB), and Dragon style (FB)
F1/M1 = Tiger style (MB)
F1/M2 = Tiger Pounce (MB), improved grapple
F2/M3 = Dragon Ferocity, monastic legacy (FB)
at 7th level (F3/M4) you'd grab tiger claws as your final style feat.
Now a Master of Many styles gives up flurry, but this character would never go beyond Monk4. you'd continue as an unarmed fighter for the rest of your career. You wear armor and your only Quigong power is barkskin, which you can use 3-4 times a day at level 6 to get a natural armor bump. But the benefits of this fighting style are sick.
since you can use them at the same time, by 6th level you can:
1 always power attack at no penalty to hit (off AC instead)
2 add 2x str to your 1st hit, and 1.5 str on all other hits.
3 critical or stun will result in your opponent being shaken for d4+str rounds.
4 also, unarmed strikes can deal slashing dmg and do d4 bleed on a crit
5 ignore difficult terrain on a run/charge/withdraw AND charge through allies
6 +2 vs sleep, paralysis, stunning, bull rush, overrun or trip.
In a 15 point buy I'd start with 17/14/13/10/12/8
In a 20 point, I'd go 18/14/14/10/12/8
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I've posted this idea in several threads right after Ultimate Combat hit the stores, but I love it enough to post again. Its all about early feat entry to gain abilities well below the level a standard monk would have them.Go Fighter/Monk and use the unarmed fighter with a Quigong Master of Many Styles.
Here is a potential feat progression to level 6.
F1 = power attack, weapon focus unarmed (HB), and Dragon style (FB)
F1/M1 = Tiger style (MB)
F1/M2 = Tiger Pounce (MB), improved grapple
F2/M3 = Dragon Ferocity, monastic legacy (FB)at 7th level (F3/M4) you'd grab tiger claws as your final style feat.
Now a Master of Many styles gives up flurry, but this character would never go beyond Monk4. you'd continue as an unarmed fighter for the rest of your career. You wear armor and your only Quigong power is barkskin, which you can use 3-4 times a day at level 6 to get a natural armor bump. But the benefits of this fighting style are sick.
since you can use them at the same time, by 6th level you can:
1 always power attack at no penalty to hit (off AC instead)
2 add 2x str to your 1st hit, and 1.5 str on all other hits.
3 critical or stun will result in your opponent being shaken for d4+str rounds.
4 also, unarmed strikes can deal slashing dmg and do d4 bleed on a crit
5 ignore difficult terrain on a run/charge/withdraw AND charge through allies
6 +2 vs sleep, paralysis, stunning, bull rush, overrun or trip.In a 15 point buy I'd start with 17/14/13/10/12/8
In a 20 point, I'd go 18/14/14/10/12/8
You have very low offense with this build.
W/o flurry you don't have a lot of attacks - and our damage calculations are off, since your unarmed attack STR bonus (w/o flurry) is (with Dragon Ferocity) x1.5 for your main hand attacks (x2 on the first one every round) -- but at level 6 you still only get a single attack per round. If you want offense and you are giving up Flurry, you really need to either pick up a two handed weapon or invest the DEX and go TWF (Dragon makes this option work pretty well).
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Jelani: keep in mind that Grapple has very limited application as you level up. The monsters will have crazy CMD values and there really isn't a lot of options to build up your Grapple CMB (like there is with Trip, for instance) the grapple feat path just isn't very well supported. You will probably be able to grapple casters, but there may be a lot of fights where you don't feel like you can contribute very much.
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I agree, Mergy, but I think you really need to build a STR monk carefully in order to be effective. The Temple sword power attack shenanigans work well, as does Dragon Ferocity.
I'd look at working Tiger Pounce into your Temple Sword-wielding build: not taking the hit to attack makes a huge difference on power attack damage efficiency. You wouldn't be able to take Pounce until level 9, but it would be a huge boost to damage at that level (+3 to attack for each attack in a Temple Sword Flurry of Blows).
Just a side note: if you're keen on grappling, the halfling alternate favored class ability for monks gives you a bonus to your CMD for grapple making it extremely difficult for enemies to escape your pin. There's a feat tax (agile maneuvers etc) and you're a bit one-note but the halfling master grappler is pretty hilarious.
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Monks actually have survivability in spades. Most monks will have 14 dexterity and wisdom for a +4 "dex bonus". A headband of wisdom will turn that into a +5, and the ring of protection will bring them to +6, +7. If they don't need the amulet of mighty fists (because they've chosen a weapon instead) then you can give them the amulet of natural armour. Then all you need is a friendly arcane caster or skill points in Use Magic Device to give yourself mage armour with a wand.
You're looking at 20-21 AC standard; if you go Qinggong to grab barkskin it increases to 22-23, dodge is another point (and they can grab it as a bonus feat). Not bad at all, and that's only with a 14/14, which leaves plenty of points for strength, which is truly the monk primary attribute.
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You have very low offense with this build.
W/o flurry you don't have a lot of attacks - and our damage calculations are off, since your unarmed attack STR bonus (w/o flurry) is (with Dragon Ferocity) x1.5 for your main hand attacks (x2 on the first one every round) -- but at level 6 you still only get a single attack per round. If you want offense and you are giving up Flurry, you really need to either pick up a two handed weapon or invest the DEX and go TWF (Dragon...
I beg to differ. I have the number somewhere, but don't want to look for them right now - I'll just explain the logic here. DPR stays ahead of the curve for flurry based monks the whole way for 2 reasons. 1st, your chance to hit is far superior with this build. Between no 2 wpn fighting penalty from flurry and no to hit penalty from power attack, you will always be power attacking at a very high chance to hit. The 2nd reason is getting tiger claw at 7th level. You now roll once at full BAB and hit twice. 2 dice, 2 bonuses, and if you crit, 2 criticals. Those are both at x2 strength damage since they are one strike.
at 6th level you should be +12 to hit for d8+15. At 7th that jumps to 2d8 + 30. at 8th (with better equipment, wpn spec and a stat bump) it goes up more. By 10th level you should be over +20 to hit and doing 2d8 + 50 or more. Don't forget that you are eligible for fighter weapon training bonuses as well as greater focus and greater spec. That all adds up fast.
Don't ever underestimate the role to hit chance plays in DPR. In many ways its equally important to damage rolls.
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It's more important than damage rolls, but you need to consider that your monk's single attack is made with his 3/4 BAB rather than the flurrying full BAB. You have about the same chance to hit, but you have less attacks.
True for a straight monk. But the design I posted is a monk/unarmed fighter. Most levels end up in the fighter column, so you're advancing with full BAB. That's why you invest in monastic legacy and its also how you can benefit from fighter only benefits like weapon training, greater focus, weapon spec and greater specialization.
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Your build looks very solid at mid levels - and it's a cool way to get through a tough period for low level monks or unarmed fighters - but it's going to fall way behind when all of your melee companions are attacking 4 or 5 times per round (or 6/7 times per round with haste and/or flurry). Part of what makes melee damage really cook is the number of attacks that you can apply Weapon Spec, Weapon Training, STR and PA damage bonuses to each round.
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Thanks, and sure, post it if you like.Right once again man. -queue Darth Vader voice- Most impressive...
Wanna look at my Synthesist build and see if you notice anything there?
Okay, here is the Synthesist build. If the opponents are medium and earthbound he will cast haste, then move in and trip and rip 'em. If the opponents are large or larger he will start w/ enlarge person. If they are flying lesser surge to get wings. If they are invisible lesser surge for tremorsense. Can also lesser surge for a gore attack if he feels like it.
Ajit
N Human (favored class Summoner)
Sum 5 (Synthesist)
1st: Sum; Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Fused Eidolon, Fused Link, Summon Monster 1, Traits (Desperate Focus, Reactionary)
2nd: Sum; Bond Senses, Evasion
3rd: Sum; Combat Reflexes
4th: Sum; Shielded Meld, +1 Con
5th: Sum; Power Attack, Summon Monster III, Eidolon +1 Con
Str: 7/22
Dex: 7/14
Con: 14/14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 22
Init:+4 (+2 Dex, +2 trait) Speed: 30 ft Darkvision
HP: 38/40 (5d8+10/5d10+10) AC: 29 (+4 Armor (MA), +2 Dex, +10 NA, +2 shield, +1 Deflection)
Fort: +6 (+1 base, +2 Con, +2 Circ, +1 Magic) Ref: +6 (+1 base, +2 Dex, +2 Circ, +1 Magic) Will: +9 (+4 base, +2 Wis, +2 Circ, +1 Magic)
BAB: +4 CMB: +10, +12 Trip (+4 BAB, +6 Str) CMD: 18, 20 v Trip (+6 Str, +2 Dex)
SA: Evasion
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) +6 (1 rank, +3 class, +2 int); Knowledge (Planes) +9 (4 ranks, +3 class, +2 int); Knowledge (Nature) +9 (4 ranks, 3 class, 2 int); Knowledge (Religion) +9 (4 ranks, 3 class, 2 int); Perception +7 (+5 ranks, +2 wis) Spellcraft +10 (5 ranks, 3 class, 2 int); Use Magic Device +13 (5 ranks, 3 class, 5 cha)
Spells Known:
0- Daze (DC 16), Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Read Magic
1 (6/Day)- Grease (DC 17), Mage Armor, Compel Hostility (DC 17), Protection from Evil
2 (4/Day)- Haste, Evolution Surge (lesser), Summon Eidolon
Evolutions (8 pts): Claws (Free), Limbs Arms 2 (Free), Limbs Legs (Free), Imp. NA 2 (2), Bite I (1), Reach Bite (1), Acid Attacks (2), Improved Str (2)
Attack:
Bite +10 (1d6+6+1d6 x2 or Trip +11) and Claws +10 (1d4+6+1d6 x2)
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Jelani: keep in mind that Grapple has very limited application as you level up. The monsters will have crazy CMD values and there really isn't a lot of options to build up your Grapple CMB (like there is with Trip, for instance) the grapple feat path just isn't very well supported. You will probably be able to grapple casters, but there may be a lot of fights where you don't feel like you can contribute very much.
I am well aware of how crappy he is. But after seeing this guy I had to make a character based around it. Also I wanted to try the maneuver master out. Do you guys think he could stay viable past the point where things are large and four legged if he switched to a Str build and focused on tripping and/or dirty tricks?
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Well it's solid and powerful. Although you are missing out on pounce from being a quadruped. I don't think there's much I can really tweak here. One thing that confuses me is that you went with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip instead of just taking the Trip evolution. You would be able to trip as a free action whenever you made a successful bite attack, and I notice you've got that reached anyway.
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Well it's solid and powerful. Although you are missing out on pounce from being a quadruped. I don't think there's much I can really tweak here. One thing that confuses me is that you went with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip instead of just taking the Trip evolution. You would be able to trip as a free action whenever you made a successful bite attack, and I notice you've got that reached anyway.
Evo points are tight with not being eligible for extra evolution. Plus, it gives me a +2 to trip and I can take greater trip later for another +2. I think next level I will drop the improved strength and add trip to the bite along with a permanent gore.
I supposed I could make him a half-elf and lose 4 HP to get an extra Evo point for Trip on the Bite. Then I would have a feat open as well, but what would I use it for?
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Grab Combat Reflexes at level 1 and Stand Still at level 3. Stand Still is a really cool feat, I'm sure I've mentioned that already in this thread. Especially because you have reach as well you'll be able to protect your group while keeping the enemy in full attack range.
Sounds like a good idea. Thanks again ^_^