As a GM, I'm already loathing the Summoner, and here are a few of my questions that popped up last game:
1) If a Summoner begins using his 1 minute ritual to summon his eidolon, do monsters summoned by his summon monster SLA remain in play until the ritual is complete, or does starting the ritual shut this ability down?
2) What type of action does the ritual require for each turn of the minute?
3)Does performing the ritual provoke attacks of opportunity?
1) The rules are silent. The way we've played, having the eidolon present prevents the Summoner from using his SLA, and having the SLA-summoned creatures out prevents the Summoner from effectively beginning the eidolon-summoning ritual.
2) The rules are silent. The way we've played, a full-round action.
3) I suppose it might be possible to cast the ritual defensively?
HappyDaze wrote: 2) What type of action does the ritual require for each turn of the minute? It doesn't say, I would consider it the same as casting a spell with a one minute casting time.
HappyDaze wrote: 3)Does performing the ritual provoke attacks of opportunity? It doesn't say, but I would say so, just like casting a spell or Spell-like ability (once at the beginning of casting).
HappyDaze wrote: 1) If a Summoner begins using his 1 minute ritual to summon his eidolon, do monsters summoned by his summon monster SLA remain in play until the ritual is complete, or does starting the ritual shut this ability down? The kicker:
By RAW, you can't use the Summon Monster (Sp) while your eidolon is active. It doesn't say you can't summon the eidolon while your summons are active.
RAI is certainly that you shouldn't have both active at the same time. I don't see any problem with the critters staying out until the ritual is completed, though. If he's summoning in combat he's pretty much screwed anyway, so letting the critters guard him isn't so bad.
Grick wrote: HappyDaze wrote: 2) What type of action does the ritual require for each turn of the minute? It doesn't say, I would consider it the same as casting a spell with a one minute casting time.
HappyDaze wrote: 3)Does performing the ritual provoke attacks of opportunity? It doesn't say, but I would say so, just like casting a spell or Spell-like ability (once at the beginning of casting).
HappyDaze wrote: 1) If a Summoner begins using his 1 minute ritual to summon his eidolon, do monsters summoned by his summon monster SLA remain in play until the ritual is complete, or does starting the ritual shut this ability down? The kicker:
By RAW, you can't use the Summon Monster (Sp) while your eidolon is active. It doesn't say you can't summon the eidolon while your summons are active.
RAI is certainly that you shouldn't have both active at the same time. I don't see any problem with the critters staying out until the ritual is completed, though. If he's summoning in combat he's pretty much screwed anyway, so letting the critters guard him isn't so bad.
If going with this, what is the effective spell level of the ritual for the purposes of Concentration checks incurred while trying to use it? Should it be 1/2 the Summoner level like many other class abilities use for setting the DCs?
Actually the summoning ritual is not marked as a spell-like ability so it is quite possible that it does not require Concentration checks - I think that it would still need 10 full-round actions to complete so anything that prevents Summoner from taking an action interrupts the ritual.
Drejk wrote: Actually the summoning ritual is not marked as a spell-like ability so it is quite possible that it does not require Concentration checks - I think that it would still need 10 full-round actions to complete so anything that prevents Summoner from taking an action interrupts the ritual. No, it's not, but it also isn't noted what type of action it takes or really anything else about it.
Someone could argue that the ritual takes 1 minute of total attention leaving the Summoner immobile (sitting in the lotus position), blind (eyes closed), and helpless while someone else might argue that the ritual takes only a Swift action each turn as the character hums the alphabet while moving and fighting. The rules don't say that either is correct, so the suggestion to follow the rules for a SLA seem like they might work as a compromise.
It's also possible that the ritual simply CANNOT be performed in combat and is basically an off-screen 'action' similar to preparing spells.
Why is this relevant to combating the summoner?
Because using the eidolon ritual in combat while having monsters summoned via the SLA has come up in play.
Then don't allow it.
But also don't just keep on nerfing him piecemeal. It's the class that's easiest to make overpowered. Talk to the player about it and what you wish to do, giving him the option to swap characters at no penalty if he doesn't think he'll have fun.
Your combats last more then 11 rounds?
Robespierre wrote: Your combats last more then 11 rounds? Some have. We've had combats where 3 rounds go by with no one hitting anyone else, and we've also had whittle-down combats where the damage dealt per round is just very low and/or spread around.
Cheapy wrote: Then don't allow it.
But also don't just keep on nerfing him piecemeal. It's the class that's easiest to make overpowered. Talk to the player about it and what you wish to do, giving him the option to swap characters at no penalty if he doesn't think he'll have fun.
It's not a matter of nerfing if there's no established standard to how it is supposed to work. The player in question has very liberal interpretations of the Summoner rules, and I'm here to see if there is any clarification on whether he's correct or not.
Other people in the party must not contribute much to combat.
We have a pair of magi that both tend to roll poorly and still opt to try regular attacks with weapon + spell rather than just opting for the touch attack with the spell alone. We have a rogue that only does good damage when using sneak attack, and even then tends to roll poorly (she needs to get some flat damage adds like Piranha Strike since the dice hate her). Lastly we have an oracle that is all about healing and support. So, really, they all contribute but there's just not a lot of firepower much of the time.
So, any input on the actual topic of the apparent holes in the summoner rules?
Wow, the rules really do need to be better defined...
anyway
1. I'd say any SLA creatures are dismissed if the eidolon is summoned (they can remain throughout the ritual).
It's either that, or the ritual auto fails.
2. Summon spells typically require a 1 round casting time, I'd call this a 1 minute casting time (10 consecutive full round actions with the eidolon appearing on the 11th)
3. Looks like a Su ability to me, I'd say no AoO. But it is very gray.
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