Spell advice for a level 5 bard and a level 4 cleric?


Advice


I could have sworn i posted this already but i cant find the thread o.O

Anyway my ranged/support bard just hit level 5. He has the human alternate favored class bonus that gives you 1 extra spell per level (that must be at least 1 level lower than your highest spell level).

Spells known :

0 - Detect magic, ghost sound, light, mage hand, mending, spark, open/close, read magic, prestidigation

1 - Comprehend languages, Charm person, CLW, Grease, Identify,

2 - Mirror image, Gallant Inspiration,

Was thinking of taking hideous laughter and glitter dust. Any recommendations?

Also we just had a new player join our group with a level 4 cleric. Can anyone recommend a general spell list for day to day adventuring?


What's your Charisma? And what are the other classes in the party?


19.


So non-optimized Charisma.

The issue with bards and saving throws is that they don't scale quite as fast as other casters. That's why if you do go for save-based spells as a bard, you have to go all out (Spell Focus enchantment + Greater SF enchantment + maximum possible Charisma). Even then, you're still behind a wizard/sorcerer doing the same thing.

You're just exiting the sweet spot for saving throws (wizards now have 3rd level spells), so now would be the time to start focusing on:

1. Buffs (haste, heroism, etc)

2. Save-based spells that have decent utility without a save (grease, glitterdust, etc)

3. Pure non-save utility (displacement, etc)

In that case, glitterdust (even if nerfed in PF from 3.5) is still the winner. Even if the save becomes worthless later, you can always use it to de-invisible creatures with no SR check.


For the cleric:

I'm assuming the positive channeling. . .

You want at least one save-based spell for your top two spell levels. I tend to prefer area of effect spells since those seem to be in pretty short supply in "spell damage sucks" Pathfinder. I really like sound burst and I think it's a pretty solid choice. Command is a solid 1st level choice.

After that, you want to minimize "ah $#@!" type effects. Remove paralysis, resist energy, align weapon, status, protection from evil, obscuring mist, etc.

I'd have a bless wand if possible. Everyone seems to like bless and the attack roll boost stacks with inspire courage.


Im confused, how could i get a better charisma at level 5 than 19? Unless i were to pick 18 charisma and start and put +2 racial points into it, which would be really expensive.

Edit : Right now the party is a bard, cleric, cavalier and monk.


That is exactly what he means.

Many believe that you can not use a caster with save based spells unless you absolutley max the casting stat and all the DC feats, traits, and powers you can get.

I don't happen to be in that school.

I think you can do pretty well with a lower casting stat than that if you do a good job of matching the save vs the opponents poor saves.

Of course, you can also go the no save spells route. Buffs and summons are good there.


The question is: what are you doing with the character? If you're pretty much the primary arcane spellcaster (which you are), then you're probably going to be casting a lot of control-type spells like suggestion/confusion/etc. If you're going to be doing that thing over and over and over again, your DCs might as well be totally optimized. Otherwise you have to ask, "Are the points/feats I didn't put toward my DCs really worth it?"

Bards typically fill multiple roles at once, so it's not a surprise to see a bard with a sub-optimal Charisma. In fact, I can't remember the last time I played a bard with optimal Charisma. The only issue is that there's no other arcane casters, so the bard typically shifts to fill that role. A bard is happiest as a 5th character in a balanced party. Forcing the bard to specialize is a little tricky but doable.


Re: Bard
Don't listen to his veiled contempt about your CHA score. Bards don't need massive charisma anyway (they're not Sorcerers), and do well by spreading out their ability scores some.

2nd level Ideas:
Pyrotechnics is great. It's 2 spells in one.
Minor Image is extremely flexible. Battlefield control and utility.
Alter Self. It's diguise, it's some racial abilities. Another muti-purpose spell for any adventure.

0-1st level "bonus" spell.
Timely Inspiration. This spell can really save the say, at any level.
Vanish. A few rounds of invisibility? Nice.


Re: Cleric
Base: 4/3+1/2+1
MinimumWisdom = 16, so 4/4+1/3+1

0: Detect Magic, Purify Food+Water, Stabilize, Create Water
1: Moment of Greatness (synergy with Bardic music), Obscuring Mist, Remove Fear, Magic Stone (in low levels this is great)
2: Grace, Protection From Evil (communal), Remove Paralysis

... plus domain spells of course.


Quote:
Don't listen to his veiled contempt about your CHA score.

*shrug* no contempt here (:


Allegro. At least until you can get Haste at 7th level. This will give you an extra attack :D


Practically all of our combats have lasted 3 rounds or less...i think the DM has been mostly throwing easy encounters at us for fear of a TPK though. So i dont really want to spend 2 rounds out of 3 buffing.

Moment of greatness : Doesnt inspire courage give a competence bonus, not a morale one?


It gives both. The attack part is competence.


Question wrote:
Practically all of our combats have lasted 3 rounds or less...i think the DM has been mostly throwing easy encounters at us for fear of a TPK though.

Well, is it a good idea to design your character around your DM's reluctance to throw hard encounters at you? (:

You probably need tops 1 buff spell per level. I really like heroism as a second level bard spell. You get it faster than sorcerer/wizards and your attack roll buffs with inspire courage stack with it. But since your party has no other access to invisibility (unless the cleric has the right domains), I think invisibility has to be a given. Or at least vanish.


For spontaneous casters who do not already have a particular theme planned, I usually recommend at each level:

First, pick a defense/buff spell (ex: vanish, heroism, mage armor, shield, etc...)
Next, an attack/debuff/control spell (ex: command, scorching ray, fog, etc...)
Then, a utility spell (ex: glitter dust, detect thoughts, create treasure map, etc...)
After that, pick something wierd 'just because.' A flavor spell you like or that you've never seen used much prior. This helps create a unique feel for your particular PC.

Lantern Lodge

Grace is a great level 2 spell. It the "get out of trouble card" spell for Clerics.
It can also allow you to walk pass enemies to get that much needed cure spell on your tank.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

For spontaneous casters who do not already have a particular theme planned, I usually recommend at each level:

First, pick a defense/buff spell (ex: vanish, heroism, mage armor, shield, etc...)
Next, an attack/debuff/control spell (ex: command, scorching ray, fog, etc...)
Then, a utility spell (ex: glitter dust, detect thoughts, create treasure map, etc...)
After that, pick something wierd 'just because.' A flavor spell you like or that you've never seen used much prior. This helps create a unique feel for your particular PC.

I've always gone with a similar method, but my criteria goes like this:

To even be considered, as yourself if this is a "wand spell", a "scroll spell" or a "know spell".

Wand Spells: Level 0-4. Doesn't matter much about what caster level you are (per-level mechanics either don't exist, or don't impact the value of the spell). Will likely use often, but not every day.
Scroll Spells: Spells I'd only need in unusual circumstances.
Know Spell: Spells which depend greatly on caster level and will be used often.

Now, among "Know Spells"...

  • My first choice is to pick something which gives me as much usefulness as possible. For example, I love swiss-army spells like Pyrotechnics (2 uses), Shadow Conjuration (many uses!), the Summon Monster line, and so on.
  • Second choice is something I could spam, to make use of all those spell slots.
  • Third choice is often something that has downtime utility... like Wall of Stone or Unseen Servant. Both of those spells are ones you can use during downtime to make a big difference in your usefulness. For example, if you have a month off, you could use both of spells to build a series of fortified bunkers (out of stone) and collect resources for them (unseen servants pile firewood, clean, etc.). Just those 2 spells alone can turn you into a priceless commodity to a town. Even something like Mass Enlarge Person, or Mass Bull Strength is fantastic for this, as you give a loyal workforce incredible productivity for a few minutes.


  • Pyrotechnics requires the use of a fire...since people normally dont carry around torches unless its dark (and monsters usually dont at all), how do you use it?


    Tindertwigs or Alchemist's fire are a good start.
    Round 1 - AlchFire, does damage
    Round 2 - Pyrotechnics

    Though I must admit, looking at your party, it would be nice if there were a Druid, Sorcerer or Wizard. Using a Flaming Sphere or similar for the fire source would be a great maneuver. The wizzy in last campaign would use FSphere to attack, then pyrotechnics to area debuff and the sphere would continue working.
    Maybe get a wand of some multi-round fire spell later on.


    But thats still two rounds to get the smoke round effect. It seems more efficient to cast glitterdust directly.

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