Advice on Magus build: Help needed fast!

[Zark]

Hi.
A friend of my is planning to build a Magus.
We will have four characters in the Party
Rogue: ?
Barbarian: THW: Str 18, dex, 14 , con, 14, wis 12, char 8.
Cleric of Pharsma. (str 12, dex 12, ,con 12, wis 17, int 12, char 14). Will focus on spells: bufsfs, summons and battle field control.
Magus:?

Race: Probably human. Perhaps half-elf or elf, but my bet is human.
20 point buy and two traits.
We use only core stuff: Core book, APG, UM, UC.

If he wants a Magus that isn't too complicated to play what should he do? He is not a power gamer.
The player probably won't like to focus on scanning every spell list in all four score books.
My guess is he wants to focus on melee and perhaps just once in a while drop a fireball, haste and some buffs, etc.
So is The Magus complicated to play? How high does the int have to be. How much str?
Vanilla Magus or an Archetype?

Advice is greatly appreciated.

[Studpuffin]

Magus is pretty easy to play, all in all. My suggestion for starting feat is always gonna be Combat Casting for a Magus, and then Spell Focus Evocation if you get a human bonus feat. Toughness doesn't hurt either.

Touch spells are gonna be his best friend, though.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

You might also check this out for ideas.

[Studpuffin]

Follow Amby's advice. She's never steered me wrong... except this one time... ;)

[Weables]

As an aside though, please have a clear understanding of how spellstrike and spell combat work, both separately and together. This is something we see come up again and again on the boards, and is usually a reason people are advised against playing a magus as a newbie.

I'm not saying don't, I'm saying be educated first :) take a look at it, cuz it can be confusing

[Zark]

Weables wrote:

As an aside though, please have a clear understanding of how spellstrike and spell combat work, both separately and together. This is something we see come up again and again on the boards, and is usually a reason people are advised against playing a magus as a newbie.

What is the most common misconception with the combination of how spellstrike and spell combat work together?

What's the most common mistakes /misunderstandings?

Seems Dervish Dance is the way do go? Right?
We will be playing an Adventure Path from level 1 so AC will be an issue until he get better armor prof. That is we will start at level 1 and play no higher than perhaps level 15 or level 16 tops.

Dex, con, Int and only 13 str (str 13 so you can pick power attack)?
Or should you stay away from power attack?

[Cult of Vorg]

At a higher level, if you don't have trouble hitting (probably due to liberal use of either the +int to attacks or all attacks resolve as touch arcanas), it's cool. If you need the points you could take str down to 10-11 instead and focus on spell damage more. I wouldn't dump str lower than that for encumberance issues, unless taking kensai archetype to not use armor at all. On 20pts, I'd take the 13 to keep the option open, since you're not using all the supplement books where you can find pirana strike.

Biggest trouble with dervish (magnified by kensai), is surviving the first two levels trying to play without dervish. Usual solution is try to archer and cast your way through them.

[james maissen]

Zark wrote:

Dex, con, Int and only 13 str (str 13 so you can pick power attack)?
Or should you stay away from power attack?

I would stay away from power attack.

The feat and stat cost aren't worth it especially when using a onehanded weapon.

If you were going to spend more time at 15th and higher I would go towards spell perfection and the like to quicken shocking grasps in combat.

-James

[Quantum Steve]

Dumping Str from 13 to 8 only gives you points. This may be enough to shore up some of your other dump stats, or raise CON a little, 5 points isn't going to make an impact on DEX or INT. Dervish Dance also does less damage than a STR Magus since he can't two-hand. Foregoing Power Attack on top of that will really hurt his damage. Heck, I'd go with Power Attack first over Dervish Dance on a Finesse Magus. After lv 6 or so Power Attack will help your DPR more.

That said I'm not a big fan of the Dervish Dance Magus. Dervish Dance helps AC at the cost of damage and feats, but one you get heavier armours, Dervish Dance starts to lose some of it's steam, at the same time the extra damage you're losing from not two-handing starts to get more noticeable. This starts to happen around lvl 7 or 8, when the Magus gets medium armour. If you probably won't be playing much past this point, then go Dervish Dance. Once the Magus gets heavy armour at lv 13, I'd say that Dervish Dance is strictly inferior to a STR Magus, but that's a long way from lv 1.

Combat Casting is a solid feat for a Magus, but I prefer the Focused Mind trait. Its +2 to ALL concentration checks is a better bargain for half a feat. For you other trait, check out Magical Lineage. At only a +1 increase, Empowered Shocking Grasps are a lot more worth it, and Intensified for no level increase at level 6+ is amazing.

[Edgar Lamoureux]

Cult of Vorg wrote:

At a higher level, if you don't have trouble hitting (probably due to liberal use of either the +int to attacks or all attacks resolve as touch arcanas), it's cool. If you need the points you could take str down to 10-11 instead and focus on spell damage more. I wouldn't dump str lower than that for encumberance issues, unless taking kensai archetype to not use armor at all. On 20pts, I'd take the 13 to keep the option open, since you're not using all the supplement books where you can find pirana strike.

Biggest trouble with dervish (magnified by kensai), is surviving the first two levels trying to play without dervish. Usual solution is try to archer and cast your way through them.

Piranha strike is another feat that gets confused often. It allows you to take penalties to boost damage on light weapons, not finessable weapons/scimitars.

[Zark]

Hi all. Thanks for all the advice.
My friend is going to play a str based Magus. Stats will probably be:
Str 16, dex 14, con 12, int 16, wis 10, char 8.
I would probably dump char to 7 and boost str to 17.

Scimitar or falcata? Is threat ranger better than x3 crit?

This campaign will be heavy on undeads. At least from level 3. Obviously not undeads all the time, but more than usual (from what I've heard).

Advice what he should do at lower levels?
He won't have that many spells per day.

Isn't Wand Wielder a good arcane Magus arcana? Just so he can get that bonus attack every round?

Feats?
At level I combat casting + toughness?
Or arcane strike? Won't arcane strike be a problem due to many powers being swift or immediate actins?

Good spells at lower levels?

[spalding]

Chill touch is a fun spell against undead.

[james maissen]

Quantum Steve wrote:

Dumping Str from 13 to 8 only gives you points. This may be enough to shore up some of your other dump stats, or raise CON a little, 5 points isn't going to make an impact on DEX or INT. Dervish Dance also does less damage than a STR Magus since he can't two-hand. Foregoing Power Attack on top of that will really hurt his damage. Heck, I'd go with Power Attack first over Dervish Dance on a Finesse Magus. After lv 6 or so Power Attack will help your DPR more.

That said I'm not a big fan of the Dervish Dance Magus. Dervish Dance helps AC at the cost of damage and feats, but one you get heavier armours, Dervish Dance starts to lose some of it's steam, at the same time the extra damage you're losing from not two-handing starts to get more noticeable. This starts to happen around lvl 7 or 8, when the Magus gets medium armour. If you probably won't be playing much past this point, then go Dervish Dance. Once the Magus gets heavy armour at lv 13, I'd say that Dervish Dance is strictly inferior to a STR Magus, but that's a long way from lv 1.

I disagree on practically all counts.

I think that 13th level is a LONG way off, and essentially not even there as the OP is saying that they are looking at going from 1st to 14th/15th. Even still, I'd go with +7 or so more INIT and REF save to +3 or so more damage per hit when you might be using a weapon in two hands. At higher levels INIT is VERY important, especially for a class that can deliver itself for a full attack in the first round (force hook charge).

As to spending for the 13STR.. that depends upon the stats that you are going with. I tend towards:
ELF
STR 10
INT 18
WIS 07
DEX 19
CON 12
CHA 07

Now if you want power attack, dropping the starting DEX to 18 isn't the end of the world.. but it is a hit, especially in levels 4-7 and 12+.

As to two-handing.. it just isn't that much of an option for a magus that is going to want to be casting and using spell combat.

Now how much AC does the Dervish dancer give up? Celestial chain is 6 base AC and 8 DEX, while mithril full plate is 9 base AC and 3 DEX. It seems to me that even +5 mithril full plate is just breaking even on total AC. It loses on touch AC and gains on flat-footed AC by 5 and 3 respectively.

Now the dervish dancer does spend 2 feats (weapon finesse &dervish dance) while the power attacker spends 1 feat (power attack) assuming that they are both using say scimitars..

Perhaps you'd post a starting build and planned feats?

All that said I do agree with a few (well maybe two) things: magical lineage is a great trait to pick, there's also a +2 concentration trait that's NOT magic that you can take with it and level 13 is a LONG way from level 1.

-James

[james maissen]

Zark wrote:

Scimitar or falcata? Is threat ranger better than x3 crit?

Advice what he should do at lower levels?
He won't have that many spells per day.

Isn't Wand Wielder a good arcane Magus arcana?

Feats?
At level I combat casting + toughness?
Or arcane strike? Won't arcane strike be a problem due to many powers being swift or immediate actins?

Okay, I'll let others field some of this advice as I would not go with a STR based magus here.

Threat range is typically better for a magus as the spell damage tied to any crit will only get doubled.

Wand wielder is good for a number of reasons. Wand usage doesn't provoke AOOs. Thus at the low levels where not only are spells more scarce but the concentration check is not a given this is worthwhile.

Toughness? It's not all that sexy. I would suggest that you play around with your stats to get a 14CON instead if he's going human rather than spend a feat on toughness. Now if you don't have anything else for now and later you can go with it... but not until you've planned out all his feats.. likely even if you don't need anything now you will later.

Arcane strike will eat the swift action, and you will have better uses for swift actions. Round one you're charging up a weapon, later rounds you might be recalling spells, higher levels you're casting quickened spells, you might have arcana that use swift actions, etc.

At low levels I tend towards shield and color spray. The former to pump your AC into the mid 20s (though this build will be lower) and the later to use spell combat to not fail the concentration check and look less squishy than when a wizard tries to use it.

But a good amount of my thinking on them is centered around high DEX elves in the traditional ftr/mu role. I just don't see them doing the thug fighter well on a point buy system.

-James

[Khrysaor]

Try to avoid anything that gives negatives to hit. You're a 3/4 BAB and going to take a -2 on attacks when using spell combat. Magus is about accuracy and crits to compound spell damage. Getting extra attacks is no good if you can't hit. Look for a one handed weapon with a crit range of at least 19-20, but 18-20 is better.

I'd advise against feats like combat casting. The +4 to cast defensively seems good in the beginning, but as you level it becomes progressively more useless until it has no value at all. Magus is designed with built in defensive casting abilities that scale to where you can always cast defensively with no roll. There's also a first level spell that lets you cast without provoking. Once you cast this, you'll want to be full attacking with spell combat using arcane mark. It's the only zero level spell that complies with the ability thats on the magus list. When you have more spells to use at higher levels, and when you can max the damage dice for shocking grasp or corrosive touch,you can switch to those.

If you're a vanilla magus don't worry about min/maxing stats. Archetypes can vary. 16 int is all you need to be capable of casting your highest tier of spells and you want to look for spells to augment your martial prowess. Shocking grasp or corrosive touch for raw damage (chill touch is effective vs undead, but is still a save spell), shield for an easy 4 AC, mirror image , blur, invisibility, displacement, haste, bladed dash, force hook charge, and anything else that avoids the usual save spells. You're not a full progression caster so you will cap out at higher levels and most things will be beating your saves unless you have more int than a wizard.

The guides to being a blaster wizard show that its not as good as other types like enchanter/mind-controlling types. This will also be true of the magus, except you don't get those mind controlling spells and aren't as good at making high DC spells. This is, again, a problem at higher levels when your DCs get restricted to level 6 spells.

With a 20 point buy; (no racial adjustment)
STR 12 (so you have a chance of hitting until you get dervish dance, and you can carry your armor no problem until you can afford something like celestial)
DEX 16 (good ac bonus and to hit for level 3)
CON 14 (you're a melee class so hp is important, so are fort saves)
INT 14 (avoid save spells and put a couple points into this as you level to get full progression access)
WIS 10 (not a necessary stat but I wouldn't dump the stat that governs will saves and perception)
CHA 8 (the least useful stat and the only one I'd consider dumping)

[Cult of Vorg]

Apologies, I can never seem to remember the interaction on those two. So, dervish let's the scim count as piercing but not as light, piranha only works with light. Regardless, in this case the book restrictions mean no agile enchant or dervish or piranha feats, so finesse build is not very viable.

In general, higher threat range is always better for magus. If you're not getting falcata proficiency for free then it's probably not worth it, unless your encounters per day are higher than your attack spells plus recalls can manage, at which point the feats might be worth 2handing the falcata plus power attack once those spells wear out?

Wand wielding is dependent on the amount of wealth and availability of wands in the game. If money or wands are scarce than rough spending on every attack. If there's less encounters per day then your attack spells plus recalls can handle, then there's no need. Otherwise, probably a better alternative then 2handing a falcata.

[Khrysaor]

Cult of Vorg wrote:

Apologies, I can never seem to remember the interaction on those two. So, dervish let's the scim count as piercing but not as light, piranha only works with light. Regardless, in this case the book restrictions mean no agile enchant or dervish or piranha feats, so finesse build is not very viable.

In general, higher threat range is always better for magus. If you're not getting falcata proficiency for free then it's probably not worth it, unless your encounters per day are higher than your attack spells plus recalls can manage, at which point the feats might be worth 2handing the falcata plus power attack once those spells wear out?

Wand wielding is dependent on the amount of wealth and availability of wands in the game. If money or wands are scarce than rough spending on every attack. If there's less encounters per day then your attack spells plus recalls can handle, then there's no need. Otherwise, probably a better alternative then 2handing a falcata.

Piranha strike states that it has to be light, but you wouldnt want the negatives to hit that come from it. Dervish dance lets you apply dex to both hit and damage so you don't need the agile enchant.

[Cult of Vorg]

Those are the three main ways to add damage to a finesse build, none of which available in the 4 books listed by the OP, regardless that it's either dervish and scimitar and only debatably power atk, or other weapon with agile and debatably piranha strike if that weapon is light. I was just pointing out that the finesse vs strength argument is probably a moot point on this thread without any of the three available.

[james maissen]

Cult of Vorg wrote:

I was just pointing out that the finesse vs strength argument is probably a moot point on this thread without any of the three available.

Well 'core' only home campaigns can easily get expanded when people ask, especially to further paizo products.

-James

[STR Ranger]

Go hexcrafter. Sleep, evil eye and healing are good hexes for a magus. ice tomb later. Go high Str and high Int. Arcane Accuracy is your best arcana. Hecrafter adds all curse descriptor spells to your spellist. That adds some nice save or suck options to what is mostly an evocation spellist.

Hexes can REALLY up your magic endurance alot and the save dc's will always be higher than an actual spell. I'd even consider improved familiar (that can use wands) and give it a wand of ill omen. Best 1 st level spell.

[Zark]

Hi again. Great help from you all.

My friend is set on playing a str Magus so Dervish dancer won't come into play. The finesse vs strength argument is a moot point just because dex build won't happen (I would probaly built a dex magus, but he wants a str built).

I forgott to ad that "The Inner sea world guide" is also fine, but my friend don't wanna go dex so Dervish dance don't matter.

Race humna:
Traits: Focused mind (+2 concentration trait) + one giving Knowledge (engineering)as a class skill.

His stats are:
Str 17
dex 13
con 12
int 16
wis 10
char 8

Feats: Toughness? It's not all that sexy, but with con 12 and crappy AC he will need it until he can get a +1 chain shirt and some scrolls with shield.
Bonus feat human: Probably Improved Initiative.

Spells at level 1:

Shield
Chill touch
Shocking grasp
Corrosive touch
Color spray
Grease

Later levels: True strike + vanish + magic weapon + hydraulic push.
Perhaps Burning hands. Great vs swarms. Or perhaps just on a scrolls or two. Same with Magic weapon. Better to have it as a scrolls.

The ones he will use now is probably shield and color spray and then he can fight with his long sword in two hands or use a great sword.

At later levels he switch to scimitar.

So advice on Magus Arcana?
Wand wielder sound good but may become useless at later levels.
That said, all the guides out there have builds that seem to start at level 11 or something. We are playing from level 1 and want to survive. What is good at level 11 - 15, may not be good at level 1 - 7.

Feats? So stay away from power attck, at least at lower levels.
Is quick draw a good feat perhaps?
Is there a feat that lets you quick draw wands?

Multi classing? One level fighter could be an option at level 8 or something or is sticking to magus better?

[meatrace]

All looks good.
I don't think Power Attack is a bad idea, especially once you get the Accuracy arcana. Scimitar is probably your best choice the whole way through. Might look into Bladebound archetype, if you haven't already.

Spell selection is almost identical to my choices so thumbs up.

Level 8 is a strong level for Magus so I wouldn't multiclass then. Or ever, but that's his choice. You just don't really get much for it.

[Mathwei ap Niall]

STR Ranger wrote:

Go hexcrafter. Sleep, evil eye and healing are good hexes for a magus. ice tomb later. Go high Str and high Int. Arcane Accuracy is your best arcana. Hecrafter adds all curse descriptor spells to your spellist. That adds some nice save or suck options to what is mostly an evocation spellist.

Hexes can REALLY up your magic endurance alot and the save dc's will always be higher than an actual spell. I'd even consider improved familiar (that can use wands) and give it a wand of ill omen. Best 1 st level spell.

I'm personally a fan of the high INT hexcrafter with Prehensile Hair and Flight. It reduces the MAD of the class while seriously increasing his damage, mobility and survivability.

Using his Beard as his main attack and focusing on debuffs and combat maneuvers he'll be constantly attacking at range (up to 20' away), he'll be hitting for 1.5x his Int modifier on each hit while applying either Chill Touch or Froststrike (long duration spells with built in De-buffs) will let him do regular damage without needing to cast defensively.

Throw in Combat Reflexes and he'll have multiple AoO's each round (which should all be trip attacks +spell damage from above spells) and he becomes a Battlefield Controller while still doing respectable damage. Added benefit he'll be granting the rogue more opportunities to sneak attack (up to 20' reach lets him flank every target the rogue & Barbarian engage).
Once he's flying (at 5th level before nearly every CR appropriate opponent) he becomes a tactical monster and dominates any battlefield he's on.

This kind of build is significantly more party friendly then another big guy with a sword. Tripping/Disarming, flanking de-buffing, cursing reach monster is a nightmare for most critters/DM's to deal with but it is so easy for any player to manage.

[Zark]

Great thanks all of you. We will have our first game session tomorrow.
I will probably need more advice as we go along.
I will check in on this thread every day.
I let you know how it turned out
Thanks again. :-)

[james maissen]

Zark wrote:

Hi again. Great help from you all.

My friend is set on playing a str Magus so Dervish dancer won't come into play.

I would definitely give A LOT of thought to magical lineage. It is a wonderful way to leverage shocking grasp for most of the levels that you are talking about.

Towards stats I would dump WIS & CHA as you need all 4 other stats. I would use the following as a basis and move from there.

STR 17 +2racial = 19
INT 14
WIS 07
DEX 14
CON 14
CHA 07

Towards feats.. you want to plan your metamagics. Likely you will want intensive spell for shocking grasp. If you were going to spend time at 15th and beyond I'd look at spell perfection for quicken. Preferred spell for shocking grasp is nice, especially at 11th when an arcana will let you get back a 3rd level slot which you likely converted into an empowered intensified shocking grasp.

You can consider a 1 level dip into cross-blooded sorcerer (orc & blue dragon) for the bonus on the shocking grasps (+20 damage on 10d6.. effectively +30 when empowered).

-James

[Zark]

Hi. I just thought I bring you up to date. We have survived our first 3 levels and are now all at level 4.
Here is how my friend's Magus turned out.
Race human:
Traits: Focused mind (+2 concentration trait) + one giving Knowledge (engineering) as a class skill.
Feats at level 1: Toughness and Improved Initiative (or if he picked and Toughness and Combat casting for her)
Her stats at level 4 are:

Str 18 (17 +1)
dex 13
con 12
int 16
wis 10
char 8

I'm not sure but I think he picked Arcane strike as a feat at level 3.
As Magus Arcana he picked Close Range. I think Close Range was a bad choice, but he is playing it.

Are there any good rays out there?
Any other advice?

Edit:

@james maissen: Thanks for your last post. I will be sure to tell my friend to look at spell perfection, Preferred spell and cross-blooded sorcerer.

[Kolokotroni]

Close range is actually very good for a magus. It brings alot of things into the realm of possibility. Ray of enfeeblement is a great thing to add into a spell combat for instance. There is also the fact that you can now always spellstrike/spellcombat with acid splash or ray of frost, which has it's advantages in terms of longevity over the course of the day.

[james maissen]

Zark wrote:

Are there any good rays out there?

Enervation if you pick it up.

But in general no.

-James

[Zark]

Kolokotroni wrote:

Close range is actually very good for a magus. It brings alot of things into the realm of possibility. Ray of enfeeblement is a great thing to add into a spell combat for instance.

Good point.

Kolokotroni wrote:

There is also the fact that you can now always spellstrike/spellcombat with acid splash or ray of frost, which has it's advantages in terms of longevity over the course of the day.

Acid splash splash, no. Sionce it isn't a ray and you can always use arcane mark.

[shallowsoul]

How much two-weapon fighting is the Magus considered to have?

The reason I ask is this. Does the Magus qualify for any feats that require Two-Weapon fighting? Since they are treating the monks FoB like Two-Weapon fighting will this be the same since it already is considered TWF.

[shallowsoul]

Another thing I thought of.

Let's say for arguments sake you spend a good many feats and around 5th level you are able to take the "Lighten Weapon" feat which would allow you to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand.

Would Spell Combat still be allowed? If so you could essentially wield an elven curve blade in one hand, apply the weapon finesse feat to it and make it an agile weapon which would allow you to add your dex mod to damage and all you need is a 13 str. Not sure if this route would be worth it anyway, I haven't say down and done the math. Just throwing it out there off the top of me head.

[Gnomezrule]

I have been reading this and I think I caught a mistake I have been making. With the whole idea of a Magus being that they are handy with spells and weapon in the same round I was under impression that casting would not provoke AOO. I think that is wrong now that I have read this.

[Edgar Lamoureux]

No, casting still provokes an AoO unless you cast defensively.

@Shallowsoul: The Magus's spell combat ability reads "This functions much like two-weapon fighting" and the Monk's FoB reads "When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat)." Neither of them count as having the TWF feats. If you want to pick something up with TWF as a prerequisite, you have to pick up TWF.

[Zark]

My friend's Magus just hit level 5.
So far he has picked has picked Toughness, Improved Initiative and arcane strike for his female Magus.

Any advice on the two 5th level feat?

He will probably pick Extra Arcane Pool as 5th level feat, but he is not sure on the bonus feat.

Weapon focus (he is using a long sword now. We found a +1 keen long sword).
Power attack (seems like a bad choice)
Step up?
Blind fighting?
Combat expertise?

Advice any?
We have not real good grasp on the feats in UC and UM.

[Zark]

Any advice is greatly appreciated.