I've seen a wizard played badly before.
It's not a pretty sight and enough to make anyone think they're underpowered.
Mind you, we were level 15 and he refused to cast anything but magic missile because it was guaranteed damage.
"I did 17!"
"17!"
"17 again!"
"OHMAIGAWDGUYZTHISISSOCOOOL!!! SEVENTEEEEEEN!!!!111111one"
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I get scrolls of anti-magic field for my ranger. He just floats up above whatever cover you have and pumps you full of arrows. If you get too close to him, you get caught in the field and he pumps you full of arrows.Anti-Magic Field? Hehehe
Reverse Gravity shuts down any Martial Class.
Windwall.
|
Really? Fighters never lose effectiveness throughout the day they continue to truck out damage without getting worse as the day goes on. Wizards lose effectiveness as the day goes on. Fighters and the other martial classes are always really awesome.I give them the medium BAB, too, and medium armor proficiency. Otherwise, they suck at combat, and can't hang with the martial classes when they're surrounded by enemies.Their supposed to. Kinda like Fighters don't get a few spells so they don't suck at magic.
True enough. But his Hit points do wear out, and since he is the wall upon which almost all foes must throw themselves to get to his party*, those can go pretty damn fast in some cases.
*At least if he does his job right.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was being sarcastic. It doesn't translate that well on the interwebs. The wizard is a strong class, and doesn't need anything else.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not to mention, wizards can be shut down by an antimagic field. Martial classes don't have an equivilant.
Maybe make a feat that lets them cast in an antimagic field?
If you compare the wizard to any martial class, they simply can't keep up with damage and they can't deal that high damage for a long period of time. Maybe give them the ability to select one spell per level as a cantrip?
Remind me, who can cast anti-magic field? Oh, yes, wizards. And other than the floating sphere of many eyes that cannot be named due to license restrictions, I don't know all that many creatures that have an anti-magic ability. And anti-magic field is an emanation centered on the caster. Hmmmm? As a wizard, am I going to shut down my own casting abilities to nullify magic around me and on me? That would be NO.
Master Arminas
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
This would allow martials to create an Anti-Magic wondrous item usable so many times per day.
Nice try but assumptions aren't going to get you far. :)
|
|
That sure is a fine opinion, but i must disagree. Wizards are not all powerful but are in fact very easily killed with out the support of martial characters.The wizard--as written by Paizo for Pathfinder--is perhaps the single most powerful class. It needs nothing else. And if you can't see that, I sincerely hope that I never have you in my gaming group.
Master Arminas
Just as a Fighter can be easily p0wned by those pesky Will save spells. Nothing has ever ticked me off like having my brave honorable "Sturm Brightblade clone" sent screaming into the wilds by a single die roll.
Every class has it's weakness, it's why they function best as a team.
|
|
Wind Wall doesn't work on my ranger. With his size, magic gravity bow, super high strength, his arrows do enough damage to put them in the siege weapon category. He shoots right through it.Windwall.I get scrolls of anti-magic field for my ranger. He just floats up above whatever cover you have and pumps you full of arrows. If you get too close to him, you get caught in the field and he pumps you full of arrows.Anti-Magic Field? Hehehe
Reverse Gravity shuts down any Martial Class.
Le sigh.
Wall of Iron.
Wall of Force.
Wall of Ice.
|
|
Not to mention, wizards can be shut down by an antimagic field. Martial classes don't have an equivilant.
Maybe make a feat that lets them cast in an antimagic field?
If you compare the wizard to any martial class, they simply can't keep up with damage and they can't deal that high damage for a long period of time. Maybe give them the ability to select one spell per level as a cantrip?
Remind me, who can cast anti-magic field? Oh, yes, wizards. And other than the floating sphere of many eyes that cannot be named due to license restrictions, I don't know all that many creatures that have an anti-magic ability. And anti-magic field is an emanation centered on the caster. Hmmmm? As a wizard, am I going to shut down my own casting abilities to nullify magic around me and on me? That would be NO.
Master Arminas
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
This would allow martials to create an Anti-Magic wondrous item usable so many times per day.
Nice try but assumptions aren't going to get you far. :)
You need the spell Anti-Magic field.
|
I usually don't recommend Wizards in my games. They normally are without munition before 7th or 8th encounter at day and needs wands - sundered before second or third use, when not simply lost for failed saves after area attacks. For me, they are live cannons, not usable every time, but well protect they can do good damage when it's really necessary. However, it is a good GM tool as a NPC class, very useful as a villain who will last just four or five rounds in a final encounter.
|
|
Look, you're not required to post in the thread. I'm looking for solutions to problems I've seen in games I've played in, not snide remarks. Please consider stop posting in this thread if you aren't going to assist with this issue. Thank you.Excellent, so play one of those instead of modifying the wizard.Jeez, play a Magus.I love the magus.
Aren't I assisting by pointing out just how bad a premise the thread started out with? Wizards are pretty powerful, if not the most powerful class. If you want the changes, then I am pointing out the example of the class you want that already exists for free in the PRD.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Have we considered giving the wizard all fighter class features, BAB, and extra saves, and calling it a day? Just remember to add casting in heavy armor with no arcane failure.
Voila, I promise you will never feel your wizard is underpowered again.
|
|
The thing is wizards also have to worry about hit points and they are extremely squishy when compared to even the worst built fighters. When looking at the numbers fighters have the advantage in the recommended 4-5 encounters per day. In summary they are easier to hit and have less hit points to be able to take those hits.Really? Fighters never lose effectiveness throughout the day they continue to truck out damage without getting worse as the day goes on. Wizards lose effectiveness as the day goes on. Fighters and the other martial classes are always really awesome.I give them the medium BAB, too, and medium armor proficiency. Otherwise, they suck at combat, and can't hang with the martial classes when they're surrounded by enemies.Their supposed to. Kinda like Fighters don't get a few spells so they don't suck at magic.True enough. But his Hit points do wear out, and since he is the wall upon which almost all foes must throw themselves to get to his party*, those can go pretty damn fast in some cases.
*At least if he does his job right.
Yes, and it is the Fighters job to break any would be attackers before they get to said casty.
And I would hope the wizard would be wise in choosing his "platform" from which to rain death and fiery destruction upon their foes, so as to minimize his risk of exposure.
...Not to mention, wizards can be shut down by an antimagic field. Martial classes don't have an equivilant.
Maybe make a feat that lets them cast in an antimagic field?
If you compare the wizard to any martial class, they simply can't keep up with damage and they can't deal that high damage for a long period of time. Maybe give them the ability to select one spell per level as a cantrip?
Remind me, who can cast anti-magic field? Oh, yes, wizards. And other than the floating sphere of many eyes that cannot be named due to license restrictions, I don't know all that many creatures that have an anti-magic ability. And anti-magic field is an emanation centered on the caster. Hmmmm? As a wizard, am I going to shut down my own casting abilities to nullify magic around me and on me? That would be NO.
Master Arminas
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
This would allow martials to create an Anti-Magic wondrous item usable so many times per day.
Nice try but assumptions aren't going to get you
Thanks i didn't notice that last part but,thats exactly what hired spellcasters are for. :)
Not to mention, wizards can be shut down by an antimagic field. Martial classes don't have an equivilant.
Maybe make a feat that lets them cast in an antimagic field?
If you compare the wizard to any martial class, they simply can't keep up with damage and they can't deal that high damage for a long period of time. Maybe give them the ability to select one spell per level as a cantrip?
Remind me, who can cast anti-magic field? Oh, yes, wizards. And other than the floating sphere of many eyes that cannot be named due to license restrictions, I don't know all that many creatures that have an anti-magic ability. And anti-magic field is an emanation centered on the caster. Hmmmm? As a wizard, am I going to shut down my own casting abilities to nullify magic around me and on me? That would be NO.
Master Arminas
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
This would allow martials to create an Anti-Magic wondrous item usable so many times per day.
Nice try but assumptions aren't going to get you far. :)
Yeah, and I understand why Paizo put it in the game. I took it right back out again. But how about this, name me ONE magic item in the Core Book that is not spell-trigger or spell-completion and allows any class using it to create an anti-magic field? How about APG, or Ultimate Combat or Ultimate Magic? No? No. And that is because of how unbalanced it would be it someone who didn't depend on magic could use it.
Master Arminas
|
|
...Not to mention, wizards can be shut down by an antimagic field. Martial classes don't have an equivilant.
Maybe make a feat that lets them cast in an antimagic field?
If you compare the wizard to any martial class, they simply can't keep up with damage and they can't deal that high damage for a long period of time. Maybe give them the ability to select one spell per level as a cantrip?
Remind me, who can cast anti-magic field? Oh, yes, wizards. And other than the floating sphere of many eyes that cannot be named due to license restrictions, I don't know all that many creatures that have an anti-magic ability. And anti-magic field is an emanation centered on the caster. Hmmmm? As a wizard, am I going to shut down my own casting abilities to nullify magic around me and on me? That would be NO.
Master Arminas
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
This would allow martials to create an Anti-Magic wondrous item usable so many times per day.
Nice try but assumptions aren't
Yeah, might as well just hire that wizard outright, eh? He doesn't even have to spend two feats on it...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Have we considered giving the wizard all fighter class features, BAB, and extra saves, and calling it a day? Just remember to add casting in heavy armor with no arcane failure.
Voila, I promise you will never feel your wizard is underpowered again.
That's such a good idea!
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hope those walls are 360 and can move once you make them sense I'm already floating in my antigravity field, or will just fly over with my helm of flying.Wind Wall doesn't work on my ranger. With his size, magic gravity bow, super high strength, his arrows do enough damage to put them in the siege weapon category. He shoots right through it.Windwall.I get scrolls of anti-magic field for my ranger. He just floats up above whatever cover you have and pumps you full of arrows. If you get too close to him, you get caught in the field and he pumps you full of arrows.Anti-Magic Field? Hehehe
Reverse Gravity shuts down any Martial Class.
Le sigh.
Wall of Iron.
Wall of Force.
Wall of Ice.
Oh, now you're using magic? Good for you.
Disintegrate.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
oh, I'm sorry. We should meet halfway then. D8 hp, 3/4 BAB? Lets reduce his spell list a bit to make up for the buffs, maybe focus it on more the melee and shielding spells.... maybe a special dual wield mechanic to include spells.
Anyone have a name for such a beast?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hope those walls are 360 and can move once you make them sense I'm already floating in my antigravity field, or will just fly over with my helm of flying.Wind Wall doesn't work on my ranger. With his size, magic gravity bow, super high strength, his arrows do enough damage to put them in the siege weapon category. He shoots right through it.Windwall.I get scrolls of anti-magic field for my ranger. He just floats up above whatever cover you have and pumps you full of arrows. If you get too close to him, you get caught in the field and he pumps you full of arrows.Anti-Magic Field? Hehehe
Reverse Gravity shuts down any Martial Class.
Le sigh.
Wall of Iron.
Wall of Force.
Wall of Ice.
Or he could just Disintegrate your birdman under the cover of Improved Invisibility. I mean since we're talking really high level for you to be doing all that with a Ranger. Or maybe wait until you're really high up looking for him and do the same to your Helm of Plummeting to My Death.
Would that be a magus Weables? Do I get a cookie now, hahahahah?
Master Arminas
oh, I'm sorry. We should meet halfway then. D8 hp, 3/4 BAB? Lets reduce his spell list a bit to make up for the buffs, maybe focus it on more the melee and shielding spells.... maybe a special dual wield mechanic to include spells.
Anyone have a name for such a beast?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Stabracadabra!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Try Treankmonks Guide to Wizards, thats got the best build advice I have ever seen for how to play a wizard effectively.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Would all those spell replicating items work in an Anti Magic Field?
Sure wouldn't. Though the mental image of a ranger flying 300 feet up and activating his antimagic field, only to be a smear on the pavement 6 seconds later is highly amusing
Would all those spell replicating items work in an Anti Magic Field?
Nope.
Master Arminas
|
|
Yes an intelligent wizard will reduce his chance of exposure. But while wizards are not that great as a pc class as an NPC for the party to fight they are awesome. Any DM worth his weight will have a wizard in every fight against the party to blow them up as the DM does not have to worry about having multiple encounters for that character he just has to kill the party.The thing is wizards also have to worry about hit points and they are extremely squishy when compared to even the worst built fighters. When looking at the numbers fighters have the advantage in the recommended 4-5 encounters per day. In summary they are easier to hit and have less hit points to be able to take those hits.Really? Fighters never lose effectiveness throughout the day they continue to truck out damage without getting worse as the day goes on. Wizards lose effectiveness as the day goes on. Fighters and the other martial classes are always really awesome.I give them the medium BAB, too, and medium armor proficiency. Otherwise, they suck at combat, and can't hang with the martial classes when they're surrounded by enemies.Their supposed to. Kinda like Fighters don't get a few spells so they don't suck at magic.True enough. But his Hit points do wear out, and since he is the wall upon which almost all foes must throw themselves to get to his party*, those can go pretty damn fast in some cases.
*At least if he does his job right.
Yes, and it is the Fighters job to break any would be attackers before they get to said casty.
And I would hope the wizard would be wise in choosing his "platform" from which to rain death and fiery destruction upon their foes, so as to minimize his risk of exposure.
And any group of players worth their weight will tend to be better equipped, with better stats, more magic at their disposal, and should be just as able to take control of a battle field as any NPC. At least that has been my xp on the matter.
In my game, the DM gives the wizard the summoner eidolon ability. The only problem is that they only get half the evolution points. It makes me really happy andi think it balances nicely. Its why I started playing one.
|
|
Would all those spell replicating items work in an Anti Magic Field?Sure wouldn't. Though the mental image of a ranger flying 300 feet up and activating his antimagic field, only to be a smear on the pavement 6 seconds later is highly amusing
And Ta-da!
Wizard wins without any depletion of his daily spells.
|
|
Let's get back on topic.
I think the d8 HD, 4+Int Skills, and extra feats should make the wizard a bit more formidable. Has anyone tried this in play? I'm sure my DM won't have an issue with testing it. I'm just sick of being a low hp pin cushion when the fighters sit on easily double the hp and way more ac, deal massive damage consistently, and have some excellent combat options.
Sure, I played a Magus a couple of times. It was fun.