And to be fair to the dm I did tell the player that instead of getting mad about it he needed to find all the requisite info and talk after the round because the dms ruling was as much to move on as anything. Ripping up your character sheet is not the answer. Also and I'm sure he will read this later, if you the player have a class feature that others have misunderstood then ask the dm if they are familiar with it before the game starts and clarify before it does. In the middle of combat is not the time. I'm a -/$; rules lawyer at times but I try not to make too hard a stand in the middle of combat if I can help it.Gina, he already asked the question and was answered. He was correct and the dm wrong. If you read it, the entry is clear. The area the dm was quoting from was ramblings on the forum, not from the wording of the book. If you read the wrong thread here you can have bad misunderstandings. Also, all season 0 mods have two prestige possible :p heheOoops, sorry, not fully awake yet. Last time I looked that post only had one response, wanted another one; didn't refresh the browser this morning, was still showing that it only had one response on my end.
To be fair if the Dm knows the classes ahead of time it is just as much his responsibility to bone up on the rules for the characters he is putting through a game. Considering the ability is fundamental to how the class works taking a few moments to be certain of its wording and function isn't a bad idea.
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These questions came up last night on our Wednesday Pathfinder game.
The easiest one that no one will get mad about: can you attack, take a 5 foot step, and attack again? I had never seen that done.
"whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack."
Let me make sure I understand the question. Can a Magus use spellstrike, deliver a normal melee attack, take a 5 foot step, and deliver the spell effects? Is that the question?
If so I would say no. I was under the impression that spellstrike allowed touch spell effects to be transferred through a successful normal melee attack. In other words, the melee damage and spell effect are delivered at the same time in 1 standard action. In essence, you are using your melee weapon to deliver a touch attack.
If you allow it does that mean the magus can now use spellstrike to melee attack one enemy, 5 foot step to another enemy, and deliver the touch spell effects? Without touching them with their weapon or hand? If they touch the 2nd enemy isn't that two standard actions?
I was under the impression that spellstrike allowed touch spell effects to be transferred through a successful normal melee attack. In other words, the melee damage and spell effect are delivered at the same time in 1 standard action. In essence, you are using your melee weapon to deliver a touch attack.
It's not a standard action, but other than that, you are correct. Spellstrike is just delivering the touch spell with your weapon, rather than a touch or unarmed/natural attack.
Any time you could normally deliver a touch spell, you have the option of doing so with your weapon.
If you allow it does that mean the magus can now use spellstrike to melee attack one enemy, 5 foot step to another enemy, and deliver the touch spell effects? Without touching them with their weapon or hand? If they touch the 2nd enemy isn't that two standard actions?
If he has a held charge, he can deliver the spell with the first successful melee attack, using whatever action that melee attack uses. Standard (attack action), or full-attack, or attack of opportunity. If he has cast the touch spell in that round, he gets a free touch attack as part of casting the spell, and he can choose to use Spellstrike to use his weapon instead of a touch.
Using Spell Combat, he can make a full attack and also cast a standard action spell in the same round. And if the spell he casts is a touch spell, he gets a free touch attack as part of casting that spell, which he can choose to deliver with Spellstrike.
At any point during any of that in his turn, he can take a 5' step if he has not made any other movement.
These questions came up last night on our Wednesday Pathfinder game.
The easiest one that no one will get mad about: can you attack, take a 5 foot step, and attack again? I had never seen that done.
"whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack."
Let me make sure I understand the question. Can a Magus use spellstrike, deliver a normal melee attack, take a 5 foot step, and deliver the spell effects? Is that the question?
If so I would say no. I was under the impression that spellstrike allowed touch spell effects to be transferred through a successful normal melee attack. In other words, the melee damage and spell effect are delivered at the same time in 1 standard action. In essence, you are using your melee weapon to deliver a touch attack.
If you allow it does that mean the magus can now use spellstrike to melee attack one enemy, 5 foot step to another enemy, and deliver the touch spell effects? Without touching them with their weapon or hand? If they touch the 2nd enemy isn't that two standard actions?
Don't confuse Spellstrike and Spell Combat they can be used in conjunction with each other or as individual abilities. At their most basic level they are either a full round or standard action.
Spell Combat = full round actionSpell Combat + Spellstrike = full round action
Spellstrike = standard action
They follow the normal rules for those actions the only caveat is that when you cast spells using Spell Combat you need to decide to cast at the beginning or the end of your attack actions. That means the Magus could Spellstrike using Spell Combat drop an enemy and make a 5 foot move to attack another enemy with his remaining attack actions or the reverse.
At their most basic level they are either a full round or standard action.
Spellstrike = standard action
No!
Spellstrike is not an action. It's not an attack action, or a standard action, or anything on it's own. It's part of whatever action you use to attack.
If it's the attack granted by casting the spell in that same round, it's a free action.
If it's part of an attack later in the round from Spell Combat, it's part of the full-round action to full attack.
If it's a spring attack three rounds later, it's part of that full-round action to spring attack.
If it's an Attack of Opportunity, it's not an action.
You can use Spellstrike any time you could normally deliver a touch spell.
They follow the normal rules for those actions the only caveat is that when you cast spells using Spell Combat you need to decide to cast at the beginning or the end of your attack actions. That means the Magus could Spellstrike using Spell Combat drop an enemy and make a 5 foot move to attack another enemy with his remaining attack actions or the reverse.
Except they are not attack actions. "Attack action" is a reserved word for game mechanics for a single attack made as a standard action. Spell Combat is a full-round action that lets you cast a standard action spell and also full-attack. Why this matters is for things that actually require the attack action, like Vital Strike. You cannot Vital Strike and use Spell Combat. You can use Vital Strike and Spellstrike if you are holding the charge of a touch spell.
So with Spell Combat the magus can make his normal weapon attack and his spellstrike attack which comes with a touch spell effect and another weapons attack. So in essence you get two weapons attacks and a spell effect right?
Spell Combat lets you make your full attack and also cast a spell. If that spell grants a free attack, then you can make that attack.
At level 2, if you use Spell Combat to cast Burning Hands and attack with your sword, you only get one attack. If instead of Burning Hands you decide to cast Shocking Grasp, then as part of casting Shocking Grasp you get a free touch attack. So you can touch (zap) then attack with your sword, or use Spellstrike to deliver the touch with your weapon, making a total of 2 weapon attacks during that round, the first one that lands discharges the shocking grasp.
Spell Combat does not grant you the extra attack, it just lets you cast a spell and also attack. Spellstrike does not grant you an extra attack, it just lets you make your existing attack with a weapon instead of a finger or claw or whatever. It's the touch spell itself which gives you a free attack as part of casting, which normally is made with a touch of your finger, but with Spellstrike can be made with your sword.
At their most basic level they are either a full round or standard action.
Spellstrike = standard actionNo!
Yes!
Unless you know of any spells not altered by a feat or special ability that take other then a standard action to cast that can also be used in conjunction with spellstrike it is true. I was not counting feats because by their very nature they change how actions work. Witch is why I said at their most basic level.
At their most basic level they are either a full round or standard action.
Spellstrike = standard actionNo!
Yes!
Unless you know of any spells not altered by a feat or special ability that take other then a standard action to cast that can also be used in conjunction with spellstrike it is true. I was not counting feats because by their very nature they change how actions work. Witch is why I said at their most basic level.
Um, Grick was not saying what you disagreed with. He was warning that the phrasing "Spellstrike = standard action" is very easy to misinterpret.
Explaining Spellstrike as a full-round action or a standard action creates the false impression that the Spellstrike is an action. It is not an action; it is a modifier to a touch attack. It is better to explain the timing of Spellstrike as Spellstrike requires a spell that comes with a touch attack, and the time for the Spellstrike melee attack is exactly the same as the time for the touch attack it replaces.
Fair enough.