If the slot are wasted on flying then you have slot not availble for use later, and not every encounter is bypassed by flying. I don't see how flying is going to cause that much of a disruption, and I don't think haste is bad. It may be off by a slot, but I would 1 level is not that bad. Now if it were good enough to be a definite grab at higher levels I would agree. Protection from evil is a spell I might take at 2 levels higher since it blocks compulsion spells IIRC.
The problem with prot: evil being level one is how cheap it is to make wands etc. of it. At 750gp, it is simply too easy to trivialize almost an entire school.
Actually, if your character started with an 18 Int/Cha at first level, by 8th level it would not be at all strange to have 24 -- +2 from levels, +4 from a headband or other boosting item. Alternately, for about half the price you can pick up a 3rd level pearl of power. Either of those would be perfectly reasonable for a PC at this level.
As to those slots drying up: there are plenty of other ways to get access to Fly. Does your party have a cleric or inquisitor with the Travel domain? Fly is a bonus spell. (Also for several other domains and subdomains, including some odd ones like Azata and Feather.) Got a summoner, magus, or alchemist? At level 7 they can get Fly too, and by level 8 they can get it three times/day. And that's just the spell. Then there's a druid using wild shape, flying mounts, potions, items, you name it.
With one thing and another, it would be somewhat unusual for a party of 8th level PCs to /not/ be able to get the whole party flying. And in most cases it would not require a significant diversion of party resources. (And within another couple of levels the diversion is almost negligible; a 10th level party can get everyone flying and barely bother to count the cost.)
Doug M.
A Headband +4 costs 16,000 gp. This is almost half of your wealth by level of 33k. Since no one item should be more than one third of your total wealth, you can't get a +4 until really 9. Additionally, most DMs don't allow their players to hand pick their most optimized equipment. yes a PC can have a 24 at level 8 starting at 18 for level 1, but my point was that not every PC is optimized to the hilt, either b/c of low point buy, lower dice rolls or the DM doesn't allow access to Magic Walmart.
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I disagree with everyone saying any spell is too powerful, or too low level.
Knock: why why why can the wizard 1shot my expensive safe.
Not sure if you are aware, but Knock got considerably nerfed in PF. It's no longer an automatic I Win spell versus any lock, now it's just a bonus to Open Lock(or whatever the skill in PF is, brainfart) that scales with caster level. Still powerful, but not an automatic success anymore.
spoilered derailing rant
Not trying to derail the thread, but the Knock spell example above is one of things that my players and I have a very hard time with when converting from 3.5 to PF. So. Many. Little. Changes. It's been a nightmare trying to keep things straight, and getting spells confused with editions. I love the changes PF made, but there's so many little subtle ones that creep in under the radar. Might as well have learned an entirely different game.
Yes, I got the 3.5 conversion guide, but 90% of the changes we've found weren't in it. It's just frustrating, and I feel like I'll never fully learn PF completely with all the tiny subtle things the got changed. Blah.
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Not sure if you are aware, but Knock got considerably nerfed in PF. It's no longer an automatic I Win spell versus any lock, now it's just a bonus to Open Lock(or whatever the skill in PF is, brainfart) that scales with caster level...
Not quite. It is a caster level check +10 not a skill check. Which is actually harder since there are fewer things that give your caster level a bonus then there are things that can give a skill check a bonus.
Not quite. It is a caster level check +10 not a skill check. Which is actually harder since there are fewer things that give your caster level a bonus then there are things that can give a skill check a bonus....
Not sure if you are aware, but Knock got considerably nerfed in PF. It's no longer an automatic I Win spell versus any lock, now it's just a bonus to Open Lock(or whatever the skill in PF is, brainfart) that scales with caster level...
Thank you for clearing that up. It's been 6+ months since I have seen that spell in action, I just remembered that it was a check now instead of being auto-success.
If the slot are wasted on flying then you have slot not availble for use later, and not every encounter is bypassed by flying. I don't see how flying is going to cause that much of a disruption, and I don't think haste is bad. It may be off by a slot, but I would 1 level is not that bad. Now if it were good enough to be a definite grab at higher levels I would agree. Protection from evil is a spell I might take at 2 levels higher since it blocks compulsion spells IIRC.Do your players never scribe scrolls?
I do, but they don't, but even that does not guarantee you will have the spells you need. If the fly spell was being used that much at that level I would think it would be better to scribe the fly spell.
I can live with Protection from Evil for the reasons given in the OP -- it's OK to have some powerful spells at 1st level.
Magic Circle Against Evil, on the other hand, is definitely overpowered. It's basically Mass Protection Against Evil, and as a 3rd level spell it's just obnoxious. This was another go-to buff for my PCs, and I got pretty weary of it.
Doug M.
I don't like that spell because it forces the party to stay within a certain radius. Unless I have been reading it wrong you leave the circle(radius) and you are no longer safe.
I disagree with everyone saying any spell is too powerful, or too low level.
So energy drain, and miracle would be ok as 1st level spells?
One more spell that irritates the hell out of me with its potency is
Make Whole. There is something very lame about never having broken things be a plot point.
Actually no. I didn't say we'd do it ad nauseum. Furthermore if you'd like to look at the switch from 3.0 - 3.5 or 3.5 - pathfinder, you'll notice it happened then as well. How many people really complained that haste was over powered in 3.5 when we had shivering touch?Actually that is plainly false. What you did was to perform an inductive step. There logically must exist some spells that we would not complain about. If your statement was true, then we would bump up the next most powerful spells and complain about the next next most powerful spells. This line of logic is independent of the number of spells. Therefore we repeat this until we run out of third level spells. This logic is also independent of spell level. Therefore, in order for your reasoning to be valid, we must excise all spells from all spell lists.
Maybe haste / black tentacles. They're powerful, sure, but if they were each 1 level higher, we'd simply pick the next most powerful spells in line and complain about them.
Since people are complaining about the most powerful spells, it has formed a complete circle with no explicit reason to stop since all the reasoning was relative.
I don't think Haste is too good for 3rd, but I do think people would take it as 4th level spell because you can't get that effect any other way.
I think Fly is pretty good, but people aren't looking at how games are played to judge it. If you're playing a wilderness/outdoors campaign you can probably skip one encounter/day if you cast fly on everyone. Encounters are going to be more than 8 minutes apart. Using 4-6 spells of your best or second best level is pretty ok to skip a single encounter, without treasure. :P If you're in a dungeon you're less likely to be able to skip an encounter and it's more likely that you will just cut yourself off from an escape route, because an encounter you skip will still be there to threaten you later, well after the spell has worn off.
As for spells that are genuinely too powerful for their level: Color Spray, Glitterdust. All that really comes to mind.
I disagree with everyone saying any spell is too powerful, or too low level.So energy drain, and miracle would be ok as 1st level spells?
You misunderstand me, I only meant that I think all current official PF spells are totally fine.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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One more spell that irritates the hell out of me with its potency is
Make Whole. There is something very lame about never having broken things be a plot point.
Note that this spell has limitations. First it's 2nd level, and for each use of it, that caster isn't casting invisibility, mirror image, scorching ray, etc. It also is limited to 10 cu ft/caster level, so a typical minimum level NPC caster (who might be more willing to prep it on a regular basis) is only able to repair 30 cu ft items with it - which is only something the size of 10' x 10' x 3'. So, it can take care of things that are hand held - weapons, tools, etc. or even a standard door, but it won't help with a wagon, exterior wall, ship, etc. without a higher caster level.
For magic items, the caster level needs to be double the CL of the item to fix it as well. So even a 20th level caster can't use the spell to fix more than a +3 weapon or armor (CL 9, a +4 weapon or armor has CL 12, and requires a 24th level caster).
...is only able to repair 30 cu ft items with it - which is only something the size of 10' x 10' x 3'. So, it can take care of things that are hand held - weapons, tools, etc. or even a standard door, but it won't help with a wagon, exterior wall, ship, etc. without a higher caster level...
If a giant boulder smashed the whole wagon, no. But I would say it can fix a typical broken wagon wheel, axle, or tongue.
Not a whole demolished wall, but if just a few individual bricks are smashed it could fix those.Same with ship. Can't just say I fix the whole ship. But you could work on each individual broken board.
That could make for a fair number of castings, but that's still faster, cheaper, and easier than repairing by hand.
In some aspects, I'm going to disagree with the OP. I actually LIKE the high fantasy aspects of Pathfinder. I hate that in D&D 4E you had to be 15th level for flight. That's just one example of many.
On the other hand, I agree Haste is too powerful in its current format. As a 3rd level spell, it should affect only one target, not everyone, it's just too good. Mass Haste should be a 6th or 7th level spell. So imo, that's a huge screwup for the designers.
Invisibility: I'm ok with it being 2nd level, but it could be boosted to 3rd. I think this spell makes things more interesting, but tbh I don't see it used a lot.
Mage Armor: Useful for balancing spellcasting classes (and monks) against martial classes. I suppose in Pathfinder 2.0, when they fix monks (which includes making their magic items cost similar amounts to other martial classes), they can maybe increase Mage Armor to level 2 and leave Shield for level 1.
Fly: I'm ok with it, especially with it's current duration of 1 min/lvl. At that level many traps are magical and are not bypassed by flight. At the GMs discretion, Flight might even impose saving throw penalties (especially without the skill).
There are other good spells, but I think all spells should be at least situationally useful at each level (within the power scope of the level), otherwise they should be removed (for the simplicity of the game).
1. Glitterdust - Compared to other offensive spells of its level, it is totally broken. Its the only spell I have ever seen end encounters in 1 round.
2. Blindness/Deafness - Its a permanent save or suck at lower levels than most temporary ones. It should be at least level 3, preferably 4 to prevent lesser metamagic rods.
3. Haste - You get 3 level 1 spell buffs (+1AC, +1Hit, +30 movement), some of which are more powerful because they have upped AOE, before even adding in the extra attack on a full attack. It should be 4, 3 for Bards and Summoners, which would greatly reduce its brokeness with quickened rods opening every combat.
4. Wall of Thorns - This spell just feels like it was never updated to 3rd edition. Its the only wall I am aware of that can be cast on someone's square (and hold many characters there for hours), it is more moldable, the caster can ignore it and attack people trapped within, it has no actual HP value, just a set ammount of time to destroy. The durration is rediculously long for what it can do. Oh, and it is air permiable, so cloud kill works wonders with it.
I think most spells that counter/detect something should be lower level than what they counter. Expenditures of resources should favor the defender.
Again, why does a spell have to completely bypass a whole encounter for the whole party to be overpowered? That's a completely unreasonable requirement. Party members aren't attached at the hip. So what if you can only make yourself fly? All it takes is for an invisible flying wizard to open the portculis, steal the diamond, or whatever.
You misunderstand me.
Even spells that completely bypass an encounter for everyone aren't necessarily overpowered. Fly isn't overpowered for the reasons I outlined. You say the wizard could cast fly and invisible and solve the whole dungeon. If that's the case then those spells will ALWAYS be overpowered, regardless of level, because they circumvent the team sport that the game ought to be. I've never seen that happen in my umpteen years of gaming. I have seen fly used to bypass a specific trap or set of encounters for the whole party one way.I think the right criteria for overpowered is if something can reliably (i.e. 75%+ of the time, after SR and saves are taken into consideration) and single-handedly circumvent a challenge that was intended for the entire party or a specific other member of the party. Unless they cost a commensurate amount of resources. Those are difficult criteria to adjudicate, but there's my 2cp.
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I agree with some of the sentiment regarding spell power, but from my perspective it isn't the power level (spell level), it's the consequences and mechanics behind the spells.
Fly shouldn't have the "Mary Poppins" gently glide to the ground feature. You fly, back it up with Feather Fall (yet another resource, and that multiplys when considering adding party members) or take damage when the spell ends and you hit the ground.
Same thing with Haste - fine at 3rd level, but instead of training wheels give the spell Exhaustion or Fatigue for 1 hour after use.
Many of the spells were just poorly converted from 2nd ed, hell Haste used to age you a year if you were the target of the spell, talk about balance in use!
Counter/Detection spells should be 1 level lower as a general rule due to their limited use.
I would say that spells that boost skill ability - such as Knock should be re-written. Ex- Knock: Should give a +10 bonus to caster check to magic warded doors, +5 to mechanical. All Portals in area affected area would get a +10 enchantment bonus to open (Disable Device) for 10 min/per level of caster.
This is similar in thought to how a Fly skill is helpful to a Wizard who casts Fly.
So Wizard guy has a chance at opening magic barred portal, and if that doesn't work the rogue guy gets a crack. Also now the Rogue guy gets a boost on all conventional locks for the duration/area of effect. This goes also to the "caster can do everything" mentality of spell use. Spells that offer a skill stat boost should offer a greater boost to those who have it as a class skill. Thus you create a group incentive to cast spells on the best target (i.e. not always the Wizard or Cleric) in the party.
All in all I have given up on 3rd ed/PF spells as written. IMO very little thought was placed in balance of power and group dynamics when they were first converted over from 2nd ed to 3rd and all the way to PFRPG.
My opinion on the matter, YMMV.
Many of the spells were just poorly converted from 2nd ed, hell Haste used to age you a year if you were the target of the spell, talk about balance in use!
While ageing a year is (somewhat) hurtful, the real balancing point was that any amount of magical aging, no matter how small, required the person to make a system shock roll. Fail that roll, you died. Hasting your fighter friend could of killed him every time you did it. With a constitution of 10, you had a survival chance of 70%. (14 was an 88% success, 16 95%, and an 18 99%. You weren't guaranteed a 100% survival rate until you had a constitution of 25.)
Also, you had a chance to die from... resurrection spells. You could come back from the dead only to die again. And if you died this way, you stayed dead. Only divine intervention could bring you back after failing the resurrection check.
(polymorph and petrification also caused a system shock check as well. And adding System Shock back in is easy enough. Its a DC 7 constitution check.)
All in all I have given up on 3rd ed/PF spells as written. IMO very little thought was placed in balance of power and group dynamics when they were first converted over from 2nd ed to 3rd and all the way to PFRPG.
I'm with you on that. I'm in the process of rewriting 3.5, and am going back to include some of the balancing features used in AD&D that were removed in 3.0+. Magic is too "safe" in 3.0/3.5 and Pathfinder.
You misunderstand me, I only meant that I think all current official PF spells are totally fine.Claim with an honest face that you base that on analysis and play testing rather than some fanboy gut reaction. I doubt there's even anyone at Paizo that has thoroughly analyzed and play tested every single spell they have published to the point that they can claim them all to be perfect.
Sigh. If by playtest you mean play then yes I've done that, since forever. I think we have different opinions of what it takes for a spell to be appropriate or perfect.
I for one am against balance, I think it's cool that some things are better than others.
I even think haste was ok in 3.0 where it enabeled you to cast two spells. I don't think I can make it any more clear than that.
Dem Summoners get Haste at 4th level. Borken!
At low levels color spray certainly can be nice, but it isn't always a sure bet it depends a lot on the encounter. Humanoid targets are more adversely affected then most monstrous ones because of their reliance on weapons.
Their is also the matter of arcane casters being a relatively soft target and are generally encouraged to stay out of close quarters combat and color spray's area of effect is pretty small.
I see color spray as one of those personal protection spells that casters keep on hand for when they are rushed and need breathing room not really a go to offensive spell.
I am with Narrater. IIRC it is a 15 foot cone, and I never want to be that close to the bad guys without a barrier, but that is what color spray requires.
At low levels color spray certainly can be nice, but it isn't always a sure bet it depends a lot on the encounter. Humanoid targets are more adversely affected then most monstrous ones because of their reliance on weapons.
Their is also the matter of arcane casters being a relatively soft target and are generally encouraged to stay out of close quarters combat and color spray's area of effect is pretty small.
I see color spray as one of those personal protection spells that casters keep on hand for when they are rushed and need breathing room not really a go to offensive spell.
Think about it like this:
If you are in your normal house, it hits an entire room, maybe 2 if you aim it right.Sure, casters never want to get that close. But every game I have ever played in has had a level 1 or 2 caster end or trivialize what should be a difficult encounter with color spray. I can't say that for any other spell. Its pretty easy to get 3 oponents caught in the spell, especially when you coordinate with your tank, and the monsters you will face will have less than a 50-50 at succeeding. Often that will be 1/3 to 2/3 of the enemy fight force removed from the fight with 1 spell. I can't think of any other spell that can do this as reliably at any level, and when you compare it to similar level spells with similar AoEs, like Burning Hands, you see it produces completely different results. Burning Hands can't reliably remove a single oponent you should expect to see.
Personally I have no problem with fly, haste, or 3.5 invisibility. None of them strike me as overpowered for their given levels, and I think haste is one of the better spells for encouraging good group teamwork and game-play. It's also one of the best altruistic spells in the game, in that it is almost entirely focused on people besides the caster (the mage gets very little benefit from the spell, truthfully).
Now I did mention 3.5 invisibility. That's because Pathfinder invisibility is kind of stupid. A flat +20 bonus to Stealth is basically nonsense. It creates a lot of logical problems that stand out even in a world of fire breathing dragons, such as how it basically makes you quieter too. 3.5 Invisibility was strong enough, but not too strong. Pathfinder invisibility is goofy and way too strong.
It's goofy because an invisible guy is harder to find in a room full of blind men than one who isn't, despite the fact having total concealment should completely negate the benefits of being invisible. In short, invisibility should just work like 3.5 invisibility, in that it's basically auto-succeed versus sight-based Perception, but not sound-based Perception. It's still awesome, and I house ruled it back to the 3.5 version, and it's still a great spell.
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Color Spray is a very easy fix, just restore this to the spell (from 2nd ed) "From one to six creatures (ld6) within the area are affected in order of increasing distance from the wizard". Taking out the limited number of targets (1d6) and the unknown factor made the spell OP for it's level.
Putting the "1d6 targets" brings back a random element (which imo needs to be restored to most all spells) which makes the spell much less of a reliable "win" spell.
Glitterdust just needs a slight tweak to make it manageable.
Since it isn't a spell that can be resisted by SR, it should never have be a Wis save spell. Glitterdust should be more of a physical save with material being produced and an attempt to avoid blindness (obstructing eyes, getting in face, etc). I would change Glitterdust to a Reflex instead of Wisdom save spell. Since Ref saves are usually higher than Wis saves the change helps the martially inclined players and monsters making it a slightly less of a encounter "win" spell vs. most threats.
Again, I do think that 3.0/3.5 was shooting for too much MtG "clean and easy" spell coding and quick association when the converted 2nd ed. More so in the 3.5 conversion when they dropped the random output of some spells to get fixed MtG type spell interpretation (3.0 Bull Strength giving you 1d4+1 Str vs. the fixed +4 of 3.5/et al). Too much emphasis on clarity and quick spell/rule recall of spell effect (due to paring down) to help players "get" the game was a poor trade-off.
Sure, casters never want to get that close. But every game I have ever played in has had a level 1 or 2 caster end or trivialize what should be a difficult encounter with color spray. I can't say that for any other spell. Its pretty easy to get 3 oponents caught in the spell, especially when you coordinate with your tank, and the monsters you will face will have less than a 50-50 at succeeding. Often that will be 1/3 to 2/3 of the enemy fight force removed from the fight with 1 spell. I can't think of any other spell that can do this as reliably at any level, and when you compare it to similar level spells with similar AoEs, like Burning Hands, you see it produces completely different results. Burning Hands can't reliably remove a single opponent you should expect to see.
To be honest sleep can trivialize a 1st or 2nd level encounter just as easily and it is a better comparison then burning hands. They have similar effects they are both area effect spells and both spells stay static with the addition of levels. besides using low level damage spells are usually a losing proposition any way Grease, Sleep, Color spray, Enlarge person or silent Image are nearly always better options for a 1st level combat spell.
To be honest sleep can trivialize a 1st or 2nd level encounter just as easily and it is a better comparison then burning hands. They have similar effects they are both area effect spells and both spells stay static with the addition of levels. besides using low level damage spells are usually a losing proposition any way Grease, Sleep, Color spray, Enlarge person or silent Image are nearly always better options for a 1st level combat spell.
Sure, casters never want to get that close. But every game I have ever played in has had a level 1 or 2 caster end or trivialize what should be a difficult encounter with color spray. I can't say that for any other spell. Its pretty easy to get 3 oponents caught in the spell, especially when you coordinate with your tank, and the monsters you will face will have less than a 50-50 at succeeding. Often that will be 1/3 to 2/3 of the enemy fight force removed from the fight with 1 spell. I can't think of any other spell that can do this as reliably at any level, and when you compare it to similar level spells with similar AoEs, like Burning Hands, you see it produces completely different results. Burning Hands can't reliably remove a single opponent you should expect to see.
Sleep has a HD limit. Color spray does not.
Color spray gets all in an area. Sleep does not.Sleep has a 1 round casting time, meaning enemies have a full round to disrupt your spell. Color spray is a standard action. The only balancing factor is that, yes, you will probably have to get into melee to make Color Spray really effective.
So, story time, I was running my first game way back in like '03. I had planned this really cool fight with goblins using the Swarm Fighting feat from some 3.5 splatbook. Like 8 goblins attack the party. Sorcerer goes first. Color Spray-first time I'd ever encountered the spell. I had 8 sleeping goblins. They just cleaned up with CDGs. It was brutal.
But I learned my lesson and moved on. Now I make DMs cry with MY Color Sprays :D
But I learned my lesson and moved on. Now I make DMs cry with MY Color Sprays :D
Meatrace wins smartest GM award for today.
Yes. God forbid that the players actually use the spells as intended. You have a spell that deals no damage, requires you to be really close to your foes (who can always get lucky), has a greatly reduced effect on foes of a higher level, and doesn't work on undead, constructs, vermin, anything that doesn't rely on vision, etc.
How dare those players actually use the spell as intended. You wanna know who's at fault? The freakin' GM. I say this as a GM. You wanna pack lots of low-will save monsters into a small tight space, well you're just asking for colorspray to really look very nice.
Just like how fireball looks way OP when you use lots of low-HP Mooks and somehow think that Phalanx tactics are valid in D&D. Is fireball OP? Heck no, but some fools think it is. I've met 'em. Virtually all of them that have said it was OP favor one specific type of encounter, with one specific type of Achilles heel, and whine about it because they are playing into their PC's hands.
More people should be like Meatrace. Live, learn, and get smarter about it.
More people should be like Meatrace. Live, learn, and get smarter about it.
*blush*
But really, I think too many people let the role-playing/story telling party of the game trump the game. They're both important. As a DM, if a spell (or whatever, really) is used in a way you didn't think of, don't cry foul, learn from the experience. And I'm not saying you should just build all monsters will high saves or something because onoez a spell might ruin your plans. I'm saying, it's a game. The only way to get better is to play, to lose, to analyze why you lost, and internalize that knowledge. It's not an easy thing to do, but it's vital to growing as a player or a DM.
People get emotionally hung up because when you are bested in such a challenge as player or DM you don't just set up the pieces and go again. It can affect the story, and people cry foul. In this respect one of the most important things that a DM needs to learn RIGHT AWAY is to be able to think on your feet and don't let one encounter ruin your adventure.