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Just a little curious about the description for the bombs in the advanced guide: It says that the alchemist puts some of his 'magical essence' into the concoction to make it work - does this mean that bombs count as magical, and are subject to spell resistance? Or is it just regular elemental damage?
Oh, and does anyone think that they're a bit overpowered when they hit level 8, and can suddenly go from throwing 1 bomb a round to 4 bombs a round? (fast bomb ability, rapid shot + haste). The alchemist in my group suddenly turned into the most powerful character in the party ;)
Nah, they can nova really well. But they can't sustain that level of output. Run monsters a bit more smartly, and not clumped up.
Have bait to get him to throw a ton of bombs against mooks.
I used archery formations to windle down my player's AOE potential.
I am fairly certain that they are not intended or are affected by spell resistance, as there is no text (going from memory here) about caster level in the bomb description.
Righto, thanks for the feedback. In tonight's game, they fought an umbral dragon, and while it was an awesome fight, the alchy did 75% of the damage, leaving the other players feeling a little inadequate ;) The alchy did go down with only 2 bombs unused, and one other character did die outright, but the alchy got healed and threw his remaining stockpile to finish the fight. It was very cool, just... yeah, I gotta watch out for it in future ;)
He can do 3 rounds of 16d6+int, which is stupendous, but I certainly intend to get them wasted on lesser creatures next time :D (I knew he was going to put out a lot of damage, but it kinda took everyone by surprise, especially when one was a critical hit).
Oh, and the party had the option to gather allies to help in the fight but sorta chose to go it alone, which is why half the team went down (hubris I say!). It was only the alchy's power that saved the day :D
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...(I knew he was going to put out a lot of damage, but it kinda took everyone by surprise, especially when one was a critical hit)...
Keep in mind you only get the first bomb die and Int for a Crit.
the damage of an alchemist's bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike)
On a direct hit, an alchemist’s bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike).
I don't think a crit with the bomb does much. At most you might get an extra d6 (doubling the original 1d6) but not the full set of d6's for your level.
NINJA'ED! Drat!
One thing about alchemists is to ensure you get multiple fights in for the day (true for any limited resource class, really). There's also the fun of adding a few creatures with fast movement to close on the alchemist and use Combat Maneuvers for AOOs (like trip) to stop the bombardment. Darkness spells are also kind of useful to block off ranged attacks (throw up as a cloud between monsters and players instead of around the monster; less annoying for melee).
Ah, I'll be sure to mention the critical isn't as big as he thought it was, thanks for reminding me. And yes, I'm already devising new and devious ways to vex the class ;) In this session they only had to fight the one dragon (it was mostly about rallying the townsfolk to help them out) so naturally he unleashed quite the barrage on the poor thing :'(
16d6+int? I'm really confused as to how this is happening. The biggest bomb damage, in d6s, is 10d6, but multiple lesser bombs would each add Int to their damage. How are you calculating this?
16d6+int? I'm really confused as to how this is happening. The biggest bomb damage, in d6s, is 10d6, but multiple lesser bombs would each add Int to their damage. How are you calculating this?
My guess is he left off the "4xInt." For a level 8, his bombs do 4d6, and if he threw four of them that's 16d6 + 4xInt per round.
At least he's not using TWF.
16d6+int? I'm really confused as to how this is happening. The biggest bomb damage, in d6s, is 10d6, but multiple lesser bombs would each add Int to their damage. How are you calculating this?My guess is he left off the "4xInt." For a level 8, his bombs do 4d6, and if he threw four of them that's 16d6 + 4xInt per round.
At least he's not using TWF.
How could he throw 4 bombs per round at level 8? Two from BAB and one from either Rapid Shot or TWF, I get. But where's the fourth one coming from?
This is why the number was so puzzling to me. If he's 8th level with Rapid Shot or TWF, he'd only do 12d6+3(Int), but if he's 16th, he can either throw a single one for 8d6+Int or he has Fast Bombs and throws a minimum of three bombs for 24d6+3(Int).
Stingchucks can fill the gaps when bombs run out. They cost nothing, are splash weapons, and thus get int to damage. They bludgeoning damage, so no need to worry about elemental resistance.
It took me a bit to find out what a stingchuck is, since it seems absolutely ideal for an alchemist from your description.
That is when I discovered a stingchuck is a severed head weakened so that it cracks open on impact and filled with biting and stinging vermin that erupt from it on impact. What the hell?! Nobody that isn't EVIL is using that. No way.
mpl: Probably from Rapid Shot and TWF.
There are severed heads, and then there are severed heads. You could for example use a goat head or a cow head instead of a human.
mpl: Probably from Rapid Shot and TWF.
D'oh. For some reason I was under the impression they could not be combined. Looking at the feats again, I guess it's more that they shouldn't be combined, since the feat investment is too stiff for level 8.
Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, TWF, and I would hope Precise Shot--that's all your feats if you're not human. Surely you'd want some room for Splash Weapon Mastery and an Extra Discovery or two.
There are severed heads, and then there are severed heads. You could for example use a goat head or a cow head instead of a human.
The description I found specifically called it as the head of a humanoid.
And you can't see fit to use a different type of head?
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mpl: Probably from Rapid Shot and TWF.
D'oh. For some reason I was under the impression they could not be combined. Looking at the feats again, I guess it's more that they shouldn't be combined, since the feat investment is too stiff for level 8.
Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, TWF, and I would hope Precise Shot--that's all your feats if you're not human. Surely you'd want some room for Splash Weapon Mastery and an Extra Discovery or two.
There are severed heads, and then there are severed heads. You could for example use a goat head or a cow head instead of a human.The description I found specifically called it as the head of a humanoid.
Haste also works for an extra hit.
Haste also works for an extra hit.
You know what makes me feel really dumb? He even spelled this out in the original post (Fast Bombs, Rapid Shot, Haste), but I glossed over it and forgot because the 16d6 was in another post entirely.
Stingchucks can fill the gaps when bombs run out. They cost nothing, are splash weapons, and thus get int to damage. They bludgeoning damage, so no need to worry about elemental resistance.
The problem with stingchucks is that they weigh 9 lbs per "chuck".
And the fact that they are free just means you have to make them yourself.
This entails collecting and preparing the skulls as well as collecting and/or breeding the vermin. These aren't things you can do between encounters. Even making them once a day is unlikely, unless you are in the right environment, like the jungle.
In any case making them requires several different skill checks: Survival [DC 10] in order to find the "ingredients" and Craft(butchery/taxidermy) [DC 5] in order to make the stingchuck.
Bag of Tricks!
It might be a bit awkward if you have to stuff a cat into a skull, but a man's got to do what a man's got to do.
How is your cat gonna do splash damage?... I mean... and stay alive... LOL
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Minor technicalities are the first to fall when being Awesome.
Oh dear god, if I mention the severed head as weapons thing the alchy in my group is totally going to try and get some (his character has a bit of a thing for dead bodies, and the uses thereof)! I'll just keep this to myself so my group can keep the pizza down ;)
Yes the 16d6 + 4xint is with rapid shot and hasted... I'll mention the TWF option to the player as well, though I might regret that lol. And here I was worried that my custom classes were going to be too powerful! Take a look if you like, I'd love some feedback;
http://www.aielundsaga.com/classes.html
I've got one of each except being played in my current group as is, except for the aesthetic, which is a recent addition.
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An adventurer should have plenty of corpses (which attract vermin) to use to create stingchucks. My old alchemist character always found treasure of sorts from slain foes. As an alchemist, you are going to want some muleback cords and a handy haversack. If you still have problems carrying stuff, you can always get a tumor familiar to ease the load, and improved familiar to carry even more.
Sounds unhygienic ;)
Just to give you some perspective on this...
16d6 + 20 (assuming int 20 is 5x4) Averages to 76 damage per round.
At level 8, your typical barbarian who is hasted (same advantage) assuming he has power attack, str 24 (while raging) and a big 2h weapon (lets say greatsword) does 2d6 + 19 before any other feats taken. 3 attacks a round at a 26 average damage is 78 damage average.
The barbarian uses rage rounds to do this, which are in far more supply than bombs, and while he's hitting normal AC, will have an attack bonus far higher than your alchemist to do it with. He can also do this all day (assuming someone hastes him) and will outperform your alchemist pretty much all the time.
So yes, for 3-4 rounds a day an optimized alchemist matches the unoptimized barbarian for damage.
Problem? not really.
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Being the DPR king is not what an alchemist does. An alchemist can control the battlefield, with smoke and stink bombs. Stop a running baddie with tanglefoot bombs, or decimate a fort with explosive bombs. The alchemist is awesome fun, but if damage output is your only goal, you could do a little better with some other classes.
Don't forget that his bombs go right through DR, whereas your melee fighter types might have a problem with that (as is what happened in my last session). Regardless, I think we can all agree that Pathfinder gets vicious at high levels :)
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Absolutely. 90d4+9xInt force damage at level 20 is crazy. Even on the lower attacks, you're still hitting touch AC. The 9 Reflex saves or prone is just gravy. Sure, you'll only be able to use it 2-3 times, maybe 4 if your int is high and you take Extra Bombs a few times.
TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Rapid shot, Haste, and Transformation if you really want that 9th attack.
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Yeah, Glass mortars is pretty accurate, and TWF = Two weapon fighting. if you were to max out intelligence, it'd be 38, giving 34 bombs per round(More than I thought), and each would deal 10d6+14 damage. If you want to increase single target damage, pop a Targeted Admixture extract before transformation, to double intelligence damage on bombs, but get rid of splash. That would be 10d6+28 per bomb. The D6 bombs are easily resisted with ER, but the sonic bombs at d4 are much less often prepared for, and force bombs even less. In any case, damage will stick right around the average, with so many dice.
Assuming the highest Touch AC you're likely to meet, 14, I got about a DPR of 539.1225, using the targeted admixture, haste, rapid shot, twf chain, and transformation. This is with a starting Int of 18, bumped to 20 from racial bonus as an elf, then all level bonuses, a +5 tome, +6 headband, and +2 from Grand discovery, and a starting Dex of 12,+2 racial from elf, bumped to 20 with a +6 belt, and 2 points more from a tome. It would be unwise to use a Dex mutagen at such high levels when it's already easy to fail a will save, and the Dex could certainly be higher. Reduce person would raise DPR a bit as well as AC, but this looks fine to me. Combined extract of Targeted Bomb admixture and haste first round, then transformation and a single attack, and then whatever you are fighting dies, if it hasn't already been offed by your allies. However, your great Nova potential also makes you a very likely target for Domination, which can be deadly to friends. Luckily, endgame Alchemist is fairly gearlight, in my experience, so you can splurge on the +5 to will on your headband, and you should be able to spare some feats on Iron will, and maybe even improved Iron will. You may want to take Cognatogen from UM, and maybe even Greater to boost WIll, and, now that I think about it, Intelligence. Wis +6, Int+4. Heck, you could go grand for +8 Wis, +6 Int, and +4 charisma, although that significantly lowers your hit points.
Well, as I wrote this, I found a few ways to increase DPR, but I'm not redoing the math. It's fine where it is, this thing could fairly easily take on the Tarrasque with a single round of preparation, and probably do fairly well without, provided it gets close enough to throw his bombs, even at fairly severe penalties.
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Tieflings are the best, but my calculations were made with only the Core line of books being used. Tiefling is a much better alchemist, in my opinion, especially if you can roll on the % chart for alternate abilities. Some of those are really fun. However, neither of those affects the DPR, AFAIK, so it still stands, and still is formidable.
An adventurer should have plenty of corpses (which attract vermin) to use to create stingchucks. My old alchemist character always found treasure of sorts from slain foes. As an alchemist, you are going to want some muleback cords and a handy haversack. If you still have problems carrying stuff, you can always get a tumor familiar to ease the load, and improved familiar to carry even more.
The vermin take days before they infest a corpse in any significant number, so you would still have to go back to the corpses.
Even weirder, have your familiar carry a heavy load, then merge with you, and then it weighs nothing. My tiefling alchemist did this for hiding things, my DM said I basically looked pregnant.
I don't think that's not how the merging works. I would rule that the familiar has to drop anything he is carrying and wearing before merging (as part of the standard action required to merge).
If you were to max out intelligence, it'd be 38, giving 34 bombs per round.
34 bombs per day (per round would be a bit extreme :D).
Sure, but think about the amounts you need. Even filling one skull requires over 5 cubic inches of them.
If you ask me the only reliable way of creating more than 1 or 2 a day would require an insect farm. Or maybe a druid specialized on vermin (Blight Druid archetype) in the party.
Actually all it requires is a craft(alchemy) check.
Fill the skulls with insectsized homunculi, all wielding vorpal daggers.
Actually all it requires is a craft(alchemy) check.
I don't think so. It's categorized as a weapon, so normally a craft(weapons) check would apply. However, in the case of an emptied and scored skull filled with vermin, I think it's safe to assume that that skill wouldn't apply. And I think Craft(alchemy) doesn't apply either, since there is nothing alchemical about a stingchuck.
Also, since it has no associated item cost, I think it's only fair to require a more exotic craft skill such as taxidermy or butchery.
Might want to check in the legacy of fire AP for specifics as that is where it was listed originally. I was under the impression (from the GM) that it was an alchemical item. However I could understand a number of skill checks being used to make one.
I found the rules in the Adventurer's Armory. I don't own the legacy of fire AP so I couldn't tell you what the rules are in there.
I've decided I'm going to nerf the bomb ability a bit for our house rules. It clearly gets completely mental at high level, and leaves the other players sitting around eating popcorn while he carpet bombs entire armies in a couple of rounds :P Thanks for your input guys, it was a big help. :D
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Not a problem. However, I wouldn't be so quick to houserule. It only gets nuts with a heavy feat expenditure. The twf line is going to be mostly useless to him outside of bombs, so he can use 3/10 feats for only a few rounds/day. The same goes for Rapid Shot, unless he's proficient with a ranged weapon better than a crossbow, meaning he picked up a proficiency or is an elf. In my experience, if you start expanding the Adventuring day, giving more encounters, the alchemist will start conserving bombs. One of the worst things an Alchemist can do for his adventuring day is run out of bombs, which stays a problem from low-level right on up to 20, as long as you keep enemies decently spread out, and have a few encounters a day.
In any case, do as you wish; you are the GM. I'm just warning you that house-ruling may not be necessary. I don't feel that they're overpowered unless you optimize every facet of your character towards them, but YMMV. Whatever you do, I was happy to be of assistance.
I'm not going to gut the ability too much. In fact, the thing that bothers me the most is the weird progression from one bomb at levels 1-7, then suddenly 4. I must... balance... somehow! *veins pop out on forehead*
Another issue is that because you can invest feats etc to make it that powerful, you'd be crazy not to. Or to put it another way, the player sent me an email laughing hysterically when he found out how far he could take it (he really plays a mad scientist a little too well).
So I'll take it down a notch or two, but not too far :) And may I say it's nice to discuss rules and such without flamewars taking over. I'll post whatever I come up with here later.
I'm not going to gut the ability too much. In fact, the thing that bothers me the most is the weird progression from one bomb at levels 1-7, then suddenly 4. I must... balance... somehow! *veins pop out on forehead*
Another issue is that because you can invest feats etc to make it that powerful, you'd be crazy not to. Or to put it another way, the player sent me an email laughing hysterically when he found out how far he could take it (he really plays a mad scientist a little too well).
So I'll take it down a notch or two, but not too far :) And may I say it's nice to discuss rules and such without flamewars taking over. I'll post whatever I come up with here later.
I would think the best and only nerf you need is that you can't TWF, because you need two hands to make each bomb, even fast. So, yes, it goes from 1 bomb to 4, but it only ever gets to 5 from there.
But if I were you, I'd worry far less about the damage and far more about the fact that Confusion bomb has no save and that Stink Bomb's save scales with your Alchemist levels, unlike the spell it's based on.