Except WBL is used for all characters all the time. Is it a hard and fast rule? No, it's a guideline (hence my interpretation of +/- 10%). But if you're going to use it for one character, it has to apply to all characters. The basic rule has to apply to all characters equally. Specific rules can modify general rules, but crafting doesn't modify WBL, it modifies item cost.And.... since you get a certain amount of gp and all costs come from that pool of gp the cost to craft is simply less than the full cost of the item. Where'd you get the 10% deal? There is no section in the WBL paragraphs or the Equipment chapter that says something similar to "your starting gold may vary by plus or minus 10%." That one is all you man.
The way I'm saying is fair. All characters get the same amount of gold. Crafting describes one thing I can do with that gold. Hence, it's a perfectly fair and legit use of my gold since anyone can take those abilities.
That most certainly is not fair. A character that begins with 62k worth of gear is nowhere near as powerful as a character that begins with 118k worth of gear.
You may think that the rules account for this but really. No single feat should do this. Logically, either the interpretation of how the feat works is wrong or how wealt affects a character's power. Since we know that someone with more gear is more powerful, we should conclude that the interpretation of the feat is wrong.
There is no way that anyone can reasonably argue that your wealth should increase significantly without also arguing for power gaming. I don't mean to insult anyone's playstyle. In fact the WBL clearly states that having more wealth is just fine in a higher powered game. In other words, a powered game. A GM that doesn't give enough wealth is running an under-powered game.
If that's your style, that's cool. However the rules do not support that as the nor. Nothing supercedes the fact that the WBL clearly states how to use the table and how the GM should make adjustments to the wealth acquired as circumstances change. In other words, if someone takes a feat to try and game the system, then the GM cshould adjust accordingly.
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Ok, I sort of skipped to the end, but crafting feats really don't generate wealth, they allow for custom items for characters in game. sorry if this is repeating earlier discussion.
PCs sell items for 50% of their price. If they have crafting feats, they can have the items they want for 50% of their price, no wealth change. If not, they buy what they want for 100% of its price, thus losing money for item customization.
New PCs already have custom items (generally), so I don't see that item creation feats are going to help until the game is in progress. All characters should start with the same value of gear.
That most certainly is not fair. A character that begins with 62k worth of gear is nowhere near as powerful as a character that begins with 118k worth of gear.
Tell you what. Ill assign myself a little project. Tomorrow ill create two level 10 Wizards. Ill give one standard WBL worth of gear and the other I will craft all of its gear. In both cases I will min/max as much as possible and even stat dump to do so, will focus on the same school, will otherwise try to stay on the same feat progression and use items that will enhance those abilities. All crafting will be done assuming "take 10" and I will post the build regardless of the results.
Or is that too low? I said 10 because that seemed like a nice starting point. I don't know too many who begin at 20 but will do that instead.
I think people are overestimating what the extra money gets a character. A character who has +1 higher AC, saves, attack and damage just isn't that much more powerful than the character without
I see that much variation within a group all the time (with or without allowing crafting).
I think people are overestimating what the extra money gets a character. A character who has +1 higher AC, saves, attack and damage just isn't that much more powerful than the character without
I see that much variation within a group all the time (with or without allowing crafting).
That's what I expect to see. In order to completely craft ones gear will take significant investment. You need both the craft skills for mundane gear and then the feats for the magical parts. Overall, I see crafter missing about a +4 or so since they didn't take other feats but the gear will catch them back up or even +1 or +2 ahead of the non crafter but not much more.
If you want rules to adhere to all players they need to be objective and apply regardless of character and setting.
This is completely false. PF is a genric set of rules but settings are specific. You can't objectively apply a rule to all settings equally. If you did, there would be little to no difference between settings - which is most certainly no the case. In any case, you're the one who keeps saying that specific trumps general. Which is fine. But it also means that just because it works a certain way in Golarion that doesn't mean it's the default assumption of the rule.
Paizo didn't create the WBL rules, Monte Cook did. And his RAI in doing so has been clearly explained by him many times. Now maybe Paizo wants to get away from that. Fine. But I've seen nothing in the RAW to indicate that is the case.
And people are still making the same mistake of assuming that because something isn't specifically excluded, it's deliberately included. Not only is that long standing logical fallacy but it opens up virtually every rule in the game for carte blanche abuse.
Ultimately, I'm forced to conclude that the Crafting rules suck. They don't mesh well with other rules, they use too many terms that have equivalent but not identical meanings making interpretation impossible and require the GM to either accept blatant inconsistancies or GM Fiat entire rules sections. It reminds me too much of the 3.0 AoO rules sections which people argued over ad nauseum and, by the time it was cleared up, the two most vocal positions were both wrong anyways.
This thread has, by and large, gone nowhere and some posters have become absurdly vitriolic. Good points are being lost because 90% of the rest of the post is just yelling and belittling. Have fun continuing the mockery and insulting; I've just realised I don't give a rat's dropping whether some others here are following the rules or not (or whether they think they are). Dewa mata.
Try it with 10th level Fighters or Monks too.
The fighter/monk took Dangerously Curious trait, gaining a total of +5 to umd just by spending 1 rank in it. Then by picking up crafting or profession and Master Craftsman feat, they can now use a single skill + umd(getting cheap scrolls from the crafting wizard).
Now the martial class can craft anything the wizard can (except scrolls and potions), maxing his ranks simply by using skill points gained from favored class.
So you see, anyone who wants, can craft. Difference is that they most often prefere to grab Power Attack instead. Oh, and they can keep their effective CL maxed out while multiclassing, the casters most often risk loosing one or two CL when multiclassing or entering a PrC.
Overall, a single feat to do the same as a caster can, isn't much. Considering pretty much every martial class except paly and barb get bonus feats, meaning the have one to spare.
...Except WBL is used for all characters all the time. Is it a hard and fast rule? No, it's a guideline (hence my interpretation of +/- 10%). But if you're going to use it for one character, it has to apply to all characters. The basic rule has to apply to all characters equally. Specific rules can modify general rules, but crafting doesn't modify WBL, it modifies item cost.And.... since you get a certain amount of gp and all costs come from that pool of gp the cost to craft is simply less than the full cost of the item. Where'd you get the 10% deal? There is no section in the WBL paragraphs or the Equipment chapter that says something similar to "your starting gold may vary by plus or minus 10%." That one is all you man.
The way I'm saying is fair. All characters get the same amount of gold. Crafting describes one thing I can do with that gold. Hence, it's a perfectly fair and legit use of my gold since anyone can take those abilities.
That most certainly is not fair. A character that begins with 62k worth of gear is nowhere near as powerful as a character that begins with 118k worth of gear.
You may think that the rules account for this but really. No single feat should do this. Logically, either the interpretation of how the feat works is wrong or how wealt affects a character's power. Since we know that someone with more gear is more powerful, we should conclude that the interpretation of the feat is wrong.
There is no way that anyone can reasonably argue that your wealth should increase significantly without also arguing for power gaming. I don't mean to insult anyone's playstyle. In fact the WBL clearly states that having more wealth is just fine in a higher powered game. In other words, a powered game. A GM that doesn't give enough wealth is running an under-powered game.
If that's your style, that's cool. However the rules do not support that as the nor. Nothing supercedes the fact that the WBL clearly states
Actually I don't tell my players why I make most of my decisions. However, if I don't keep thing balanced what I'm telling everyone else is "sorry, next time play a wizard."
Things should remain relatively balanced, regardless of which feats a character takes. One character should not be considered at least 1 level higher because, by virtue of his class, they have greater access to misunderstandings of the rules.
Nothing you have posted circumvents the fact that all characters should have roughly equal wealth at every level and that the GM should make appropriate adjustments if things get out of whack.
I think people are overestimating what the extra money gets a character. A character who has +1 higher AC, saves, attack and damage just isn't that much more powerful than the character without
I see that much variation within a group all the time (with or without allowing crafting).
We're not talking about a simple +1 bonus to a longsword, although that is enitrely possible. We're talking about a caster having nearly 2x the wealth he should. Given then choice, would you take a 10th level character with 62K or 118K? All for the option of using a class feature.
Actually I don't tell my players why I make most of my decisions. However, if I don't keep thing balanced what I'm telling everyone else is "sorry, next time play a wizard."
Things should remain relatively balanced, regardless of which feats a character takes. One character should not be considered at least 1 level higher because, by virtue of his class, they have greater access to misunderstandings of the rules.
Nothing you have posted circumvents the fact that all characters should have roughly equal wealth at every level and that the GM should make appropriate adjustments if things get out of whack.
Gunslinger who has a blunderbuss (2k) plus rich parents = 2.9k "WBL" at level 1. From my understanding, you've basically said that character should get no more toys until level 3 and only then only about 100 gp worth. I don't think that's fair at all.
We're not talking about a simple +1 bonus to a longsword, although that is enitrely possible. We're talking about a caster having nearly 2x the wealth he should. Given then choice, would you take a 10th level character with 62K or 118K? All for the option of using a class feature.
Statements like this reek of a GM who absolutely refuses to control his game world which is a responsibility explicitly doled out by the CRB to the GM. Crafting doesn't grant you double starting gold. It simply let's you create an item for half the cost. If you allow your character to have infinite access to resources (or resources whenever they want them, same thing) and all the time they want to craft then yes, you've created the ideal situation for crafting. It's no different than putting a spellcaster against something with no SR and poor will saves or a melee character against something with low AC. In pretty much every instance the person who's environment favors them most will wipe the floor with the other guy's face. You keep things even by introducing variations so no single class or ability can outshine the rest.
Well the martial character cannot create rings, rods, constructs, or staves either.
So a feat, a sub par skill, a trait, and using another skill UMD (failure is a possibility) with scrolls you are buying from another crafting character to mitigate the fact you will tend to have higher DC's to overcome allows you to craft a small selection of items. The martial character needs to use the craft or profession skill to complete the item they can't just rely on spell craft like the wizard so if they want to craft a wide variety of items they need to pick up more skills and professions which means a greater investment in a stat that isn't a top priority or using your favoured class bonus on more skills.
Why not just have the wizard pick up the other crafting feats? You can vastly increase the entire parties wealth with just one crafter all you sacrifice is more time.
Craft and spellcraft are both skills that require investment to utilize effectively. I see no difference in one type of character investing in one and another investing in the other.
Martial characters are less likely to need rods and staves. Rings are handy and constructs are nice but not necessary. The melee fighter gets up in the other guys face and swings until he stops twitching. The magical crafting capabilities are fine for a melee character. They even have access to the "broken" feat of CWI. I'm surprised to find someone who has issue with their choice of possible crafting feats.
Assuming a party was able to generate double their WBL by using crafting feats at 10th level each character would have 124,000 GP which rests comfortably between that of a 12th (108,000 GP) and 13th (140,000 GP) level character.
Crafter party guy lets say he gets a +4 weapon, +4 armor, +5 cloak of resistance, +2 ring of protection, +4 stat belt, and a +1 amulet of natural armor. That's a total of 113,000 GP so 11,000 GP left over for base costs of armor and weapon and miscellany.
Non-crafter party guy can have a +3 weapon, +3 armor, +4 cloak of resistance, +2 ring of protection, +2 stat belt, and a +1 amulet of natural armor. The total is 57,000 GP leaving 5,000 GP for base costs of armor and weapon and miscellany.
So crafter party member has an additional +1 to hit and damage, AC that is 1 better, saves are all better by 1 and an additional +1 bonus to a stat. The remaining cash for the person in a crafter party is still more than double as well.
A magus that had picked up forge ring, craft wondrous item, and craft magic arms and armor has received a greater benefit than taking weapon focus, dodge, and extra traits (pick up traits to increase saves) or iron will/lightning reflexes/great fortitude (these feats provide a net increase to save of +2.) This benefit also extends to every member of the party as well.
Wealth by level is a guideline and I think a crafter should receive some monetary benefit how ever I would never allow crafting pre game since the constraints on the crafting feats (time and not all loot is in coin) are completely bypassed. If a GM allows the players to take crafting feats they should ensure reasonable crafting time is available (the PC's shouldn't have a year off to make shiny stuff) and that loot is predominantly in the form of magical goods.
Like leadership these feats can be damaging to game balance if not handled properly.
Well the martial character cannot create rings, rods, constructs, or staves either.
So a feat, a sub par skill, a trait, and using another skill UMD (failure is a possibility) with scrolls you are buying from another crafting character to mitigate the fact you will tend to have higher DC's to overcome allows you to craft a small selection of items. The martial character needs to use the craft or profession skill to complete the item they can't just rely on spell craft like the wizard so if they want to craft a wide variety of items they need to pick up more skills and professions which means a greater investment in a stat that isn't a top priority or using your favoured class bonus on more skills.
Why not just have the wizard pick up the other crafting feats? You can vastly increase the entire parties wealth with just one crafter all you sacrifice is more time.
Actually, the feat specifies you use that one chosen craft or profession for any item crafted. The only items they can't craft are scrolls, wands and potions. They can make rings, rods and constructs.
"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
Meaning you can use craft (jewelery) to make a ring, an amulet, heck, even +2 dex gloves.
So a feat(which martial have plenty of), a trait that gives +5 to using any magical item, a craft or profession skill. You then can pay between 12.5gp to 3,825gp to get the scrolls, which is still less than 50% of the items value you save by crafting.
Such a fighter, if let's say he wanted to make bracers of armor, would have to pay 25g for a mage armor scroll, to save between 500gp and 32.000gp depending on the bonus he wants.
Difference? He needs to roll UMD for the scroll. The result is the same.
As for skill points, that's moot, the wizard has as few skill points per level as the fighter, int bonus not withstanding. If we mix in human, favored class, and archetypes, they are easily equal.
Edit:
Did I mention they have access to craft construct?
Which if they pick, with the new construct crafting rules, they can make into Ironman suit, that's almost immune to magic?
That's nice when a wizard does it, but brutal on a fighter.
Assuming a party was able to generate double their WBL by using crafting feats at 10th level each character would have 124,000 GP which rests comfortably between that of a 12th (108,000 GP) and 13th (140,000 GP) level character.
Crafter party guy lets say he gets a +4 weapon, +4 armor, +5 cloak of resistance, +2 ring of protection, +4 stat belt, and a +1 amulet of natural armor. That's a total of 113,000 GP so 11,000 GP left over for base costs of armor and weapon and miscellany.
Non-crafter party guy can have a +3 weapon, +3 armor, +4 cloak of resistance, +2 ring of protection, +2 stat belt, and a +1 amulet of natural armor. The total is 57,000 GP leaving 5,000 GP for base costs of armor and weapon and miscellany.
So crafter party member has an additional +1 to hit and damage, AC that is 1 better, saves are all better by 1 and an additional +1 bonus to a stat. The remaining cash for the person in a crafter party is still more than double as well.
A magus that had picked up forge ring, craft wondrous item, and craft magic arms and armor has received a greater benefit than taking weapon focus, dodge, and extra traits (pick up traits to increase saves) or iron will/lightning reflexes/great fortitude (these feats provide a net increase to save of +2.) This benefit also extends to every member of the party as well.
Wealth by level is a guideline and I think a crafter should receive some monetary benefit how ever I would never allow crafting pre game since the constraints on the crafting feats (time and not all loot is in coin) are completely bypassed. If a GM allows the players to take crafting feats they should ensure reasonable crafting time is available (the PC's shouldn't have a year off to make shiny stuff) and that loot is predominantly in the form of magical goods.
Like leadership these feats can be damaging to game balance if not handled properly.
I see nothing broken with the example you gave (except you have to be level 12 to confer a +4 bonus and level 15 for a +5, but I'll let it slide to highlight just how broken it's not). A couple +1s here and there aren't broken. They won't make the crafter "untouchable" nor will they mean the crafter can kill anything out there. Also, I've said just as much in your last couple paragraphs all along. I'm simply arguing that the crafting abilities I've seen others say they use them are not the rules in the book but is their own houserules probably born if mistreatment in game systems that are not Pathfinder. Crafting is what it is. You make stuff at half cost. That's it.
EDIT: So, rerun your calculations but having to buy those +4s and that +5 at full cost. You'll quickly find you can't do it with a starting gold amount of a level 10 character.
Edit:
Did I mention they have access to craft construct?
Which if they pick, with the new construct crafting rules, they can make into Ironman suit, that's almost immune to magic?That's nice when a wizard does it, but brutal on a fighter.
Word?
The CWI feat requires an applicable craft or profession skill if using the master craftsman feat skills applicable to the creation of cloaks, belts, and amulets are not necessarily the same and certainly different from the skills allowed for weapon or armor. A character using master craftsman needs a host of skills to be able to produce the range of items spell craft can by itself. And skills are generally not something most martial classes have in high supply.
People keep bringing up the fact that since martial characters get additional feats picking up crafting ones aren't much of a hindrance however 2 feats account for almost a 5th of fighter bonus feats. A spell caster is less reliant on feats than a martial character as well, a summon monster spell is still effective most of the time even if you haven't invested in augmented summoning and rods are far superior to meta magic feats. Martial characters don't have access to items that more effectively replace things like power attack.
But that main issue with these feats is that if they are allowed to be used in a campaign before play has started using the characters starting wealth you allow the player to bypass the restrictions. A character that has leadership and starts at level 11 can have a pitiful CHA and still claim that their cohort has gained enough experience to catch up to the 2 levels behind mark. A bard with perform could claim they had extraordinary performances every single day for 5 years in a prosperous city and should get to roll 5478d6 for their additional GP.
If you give your players free reign to do as they please without throwing obstacles at them then craft feats become abusable especially if you allow hedge magician.
I don't think Craft Construct is available to a non caster since Master Craftsman doesn't say you can bypass the CL required for Craft Construct and Craft Construct doesn't seem to mention this either.
Master Craftsman only allows your skill ranks to count as your CL for Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Construct still requires a caster level of 5th.
If there has been any other word on allowing Master Craftsman to apply to Craft Construct as well I would like to know I haven't seen anything about it on the boards and I don't regularly check for errata.
A fighters bonus feats have to be combat feats. Thus, regardless of the number of crafting feats they take, they're guaranteed a certain amount of martial proficiency.
Missed the bit you posted about the CL but I haven't heard either way if CL can be bypassed by upping the DC since the feats themselves are only stated as being absolutely necessary for crafting. If the developers have clarified this let me know and I will concede the point.
I don't think Craft Construct is available to a non caster since Master Craftsman doesn't say you can bypass the CL required for Craft Construct and Craft Construct doesn't seem to mention this either.
Master Craftsman only allows your skill ranks to count as your CL for Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Construct still requires a caster level of 5th.
If there has been any other word on allowing Master Craftsman to apply to Craft Construct as well I would like to know I haven't seen anything about it on the boards and I don't regularly check for errata.
CL only matters if it's listed in the item's prerequisites block. Otherwise, you just need to be able to cast any applicable spells. In that case, the highest casting spell becomes the minimum possible CL for the item.
Missed the bit you posted about the CL but I haven't heard either way if CL can be bypassed by upping the DC since the feats themselves are only stated as being absolutely necessary for crafting. If the developers have clarified this let me know and I will concede the point.
If CL is not listed in the prerequisite block, it does not add to the DC. It would only add to the DC if you couldn't meet a prerequisite in the block.
But the Craft Construct feat itself requires a caster level of 5 and a martial character doesn't meet prerequisite of the feat itself nor does Master Craftsman allow you to substitute your craft or profession skill in place of that requirement like it does for Wondrous items or Arms and Armor.
The CWI feat requires an applicable craft or profession skill if using the master craftsman feat skills applicable to the creation of cloaks, belts, and amulets are not necessarily the same and certainly different from the skills allowed for weapon or armor. A character using master craftsman needs a host of skills to be able to produce the range of items spell craft can by itself. And skills are generally not something most martial classes have in high supply.
People keep bringing up the fact that since martial characters get additional feats picking up crafting ones aren't much of a hindrance however 2 feats account for almost a 5th of fighter bonus feats. A spell caster is less reliant on feats than a martial character as well, a summon monster spell is still effective most of the time even if you haven't invested in augmented summoning and rods are far superior to meta magic feats. Martial characters don't have access to items that more effectively replace things like power attack.
But that main issue with these feats is that if they are allowed to be used in a campaign before play has started using the characters starting wealth you allow the player to bypass the restrictions. A character that has leadership and starts at level 11 can have a pitiful CHA and still claim that their cohort has gained enough experience to catch up to the 2 levels behind mark. A bard with perform could claim they had extraordinary performances every single day for 5 years in a prosperous city and should get to roll 5478d6 for their additional GP.
If you give your players free reign to do as they please without throwing obstacles at them then craft feats become abusable especially if you allow hedge magician.
My bad, somehow managed to miss that Master Craftsman only applied to two feats. But my point still stands, the feat specifies that you use the single one skill you picked for Master Craftsman and use that for any and all items instead of spellcraft. Not that you need to use the applicable skill, hence not needing a bunch of crafting or profession skills.
Though, my main issue is that breaking WBL after a game has started seems acceptable, but not before(unless it's gunslinger or rich parents at 1st level).
I personally take issue when people assume that by saying 'Yes' to pre-game crafting, you throw out your brain and ability to say no or put down limitations. Saying yes to pre-game crafting does not equal letting them use 100% of their wealth to craft stuff. Personally I set a limit of 50% or less, giving them a small edge item-wise, but the other people who took purely combat feats never complained.
Crafting without meeting the caster level. Seems you can bypass caster level requirements so the +4 stuff is still on the table.
I don't see how a martial can take Craft Construct, then. It's pretty clear that master craftsman only let's you qualify for magic arms and armor and CWI. How'd you figure out they could, Tyki?
Regardless, in order to create an item you need the required crafting feat and to meet its prerequisites.
Crafting without meeting the caster level. Seems you can bypass caster level requirements so the +4 stuff is still on the table.
Nope:
Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor.
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon.
However, the +5 cloak still appears to be on the table as does the +4 belt, but the weapon and armor can only be +3 max, if crafted by a level 10.
I'm sure this is so far into this thread that it won't really get looked at, but I've always found that adding cost - real and personal cost - to crafting balances the system out nicely.
Ability damage (not permanent - maybe say two points for a week or a month?) makes them use it only on things they really, really want.
I normally make them sacrifice something to craft something. Like their shadow, or their reflection, a year of their life, the ability to speak a certain word...
I know replying with home-rules type stuff doesn't help with a RAW/RAI question, but it is how I've handled it in the past.
All the crafting feats have associated craft or profession skills you can use in place of spell craft. Master Craftsman allows you to use your skill level in place of a CL it however requires you use that skill to make the item. If the skill isn't one of the choices you can pick to make the item however Master Craftsman says nothing about being able to use your chosen skill anyway. Reading the feat over again it seems you can't use other skills at all and you can't pick the feat more than once so if you picked craft jewelry you wouldn't be able to make magic weapons at all. This seems doubly unfair I guess I was being over generous.
I concede a martial character only needs one craft skill because they can only ever use Master Craftsman with that one skill.
I don't see how a martial can take Craft Construct, then. It's pretty clear that master craftsman only let's you qualify for magic arms and armor and CWI. How'd you figure out they could, Tyki?
Regardless, in order to create an item you need the required crafting feat and to meet its prerequisites.
Yeah, I admitted fault on the construct area, somehow our grp missed the fact that it specifies feats, not putting them there as examples. But it still comes back to the fact that 1 trait and 1 feat enables any martial class to craft CWI, which is arguably the best of Craft feats.
The trait is optional even, just for the +5 to umd(when you spend 1 rank in it.) meaning you by default get enough bonus to bypass a single requirement.
That is all while continuing to gain bonus feats and abilities. Sure a wizard can do the same, but he'll still only gain spells on the side. Two feats for a monk, fighter or even rogue aren't much of a hinder, especially if they are humans.
@redliska
Guess it can be read differently, but I got as using the one picked skill for any and all items, not picking one, such as using craft (weapons) or spellcraft as normal casters do.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items).
Bolded the text that (imo) backs up my 'one-skill-for-all' theory/comments.
Belt of Physical Perfection +6 plus the Manuals at +5 and a Mantle of Spell Resistance, mmm tasty. That is, if you pay for requisite spell casting services or find a mage who's just nice like that. :D
I am not sure if the crafting rules saying you can bypass prerequisites by upping the DC supersedes the Weapons special requisite need of a caster level 3 times higher or not. I will look into this.
Yeah you only need one skill but you are borked if you wanna make magic bows or magic rings it seems. CWI has a lot of leeway so at least the strongest craft feat is still open to martial characters.
Belt of Physical Perfection +6 plus the Manuals at +5 and a Mantle of Spell Resistance, mmm tasty. That is, if you pay for requisite spell casting services or find a mage who's just nice like that. :D
Well, to make the belt, you'd have to spend like 400gp on the 2nd level scrolls, 1125gp for the mantle. Which saves the fighter 45k.
For one extra feat, that's not bad.
Yeah you only need one skill but you are borked if you wanna make magic bows or magic rings it seems. CWI has a lot of leeway so at least the strongest craft feat is still open to martial characters.
You could also just buy the bow and use the skill to enchant it.
Craft (jewelery) can be easily applied to pretty much everything (ornaments on the bow imbue it with magic?)For the weapon, or the material/components, they can be supplied from another source.
Ah, right. I forgot about scrolls.
I use a simple house rule that mimics the guideline of no more than 1/2 yer money can be spent on one item.
No more than 1/2 your money can be used to craft.
Other than that, I really don't see what the the hoolabaloo is about this.
Ah, right. I forgot about scrolls.
Any CWI or even Arms & Armor can be made like so, if you want minimal skill investment:
Armor/weapon/object : Bought from any artisan.
Spells : Either supplied by wands/scrolls, or a +5 to skill DC.
In any case, you still save a bunch crafting. Meaning this isn't caster exclusive. And even casters will have to rely on this, as some items mix both arcane and divine spells, or so I've been told anyway, but they will have to use scroll, wand, or another caster on items they want that don't use their spell list.
Hmm well even if you can't by pass the CL requirement you could always just change it to a +3 flaming weapon or whatever. I haven't been able to find anything definitive about by passing that one prerequisite.