I'm running a group through the Runelords AP. One of the characters is a cleric of Sarenrae who prays to regain daily spells "at sunrise."
Currently the group is within Runeforge, which is on its own demiplane, under a mountain, at a different latitude from the one the cleric is usually at.
While inside Runeforge, the party has had no urge to eat or drink, and although they did spend one night there, they suspect they slept more out of habit than need. They're now thinking of spending several more nights there, in order to craft a Type IV bag of holding to haul out more loot.
I'm afraid I didn't think this through early enough, not having expected them to camp out inside the 'forge, and the cleric regained her spells normally after that first night. Having thus established that the lack of a sun on the demiplane does not prevent the cleric from regaining spells, what's my best option for establishing a consequence for extended time on the demiplane making it increasingly hard to know when the run rises over Lake Stormunder?
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This could lead to some interesting game play. Since they have no sense of time or day or night you could spring "time to pray' on him right after a fight.
You have killed the Runebeasties. You can feel that the sun is rising in your home plane. Time to pray. Also, be sure to subtract any spells cast in the last 8 hours.
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When the PCs in my game wandered into a Fey demiplane where time was meaningless, I made a point of them NOT being able to rest, regain spells, or accomplish much of anything that required taking time to do it.
When the PCs tried to rest the first time, I let them putter around a bit, and then basically told them at some point that they really couldn't get to sleep, had no desire or urge to eat, and that at some point they realized that they had no idea how long they had been sitting there - it might of been five minutes or five years.
When they tried to accomplish some longer task requiring concentration, they weren't able to keep focus, and eventually they'd get that weird feeling again that they might have been staring at the task in front of them forever without actually getting anything done.
Well clerics can pray and regain spells even if they dont see the sun rise or set or what have you, but if time isnt running at a normal pace and the party isnt actually able to rest, that is something else entirely. Personally unless I wanted to force them out of the forge, I would allow the cleric to rest and pray for spells normally. I dont think it is a good idea to simply deny a primary caster access to their spells.
@Wolfsnap - This is the general sort of flavorful consequence I'm looking for, though the specifics aren't as readily applicable; time isn't meaningless where they are, they just don't have a good way to track it without the usual natural and biological cues.
A PC in this same game once tried putting himself into a bag of holding just for the duration of a teleport, because the sorcerer could not transport the entire party otherwise. He won't try it again. I described his experience as being in a place where there was no light, no sound, no gravity, no sense of direction; he was unable to feel his own body or anything around him, although intellectually he knew he must be in physical contact with the interior walls of the bag and its contents. A failed Will save resulted in a panic attack where he was certain he had been in the bag too long and needed to breathe but couldn't tell if there was air or not.
@Kolokotroni - I don't want to deny a primary caster spell access, I just want to keep the party from getting complacent about spending extended periods of time on other planes, or in other situations where their daily routines might reasonably require some planning or adjustment. On one previous occasion, they were in a cave system needing to hide from some very dangerous opponents, in part because the cleric had exhausted her healing for the day. They used rope trick for the purpose, but the spell expired several hours before dawn, so they had to exit, cast the spell again, and spend several more hours in hiding before the cleric could recharge and it was safe to come out.
Then, I'll fight in the shade.
When the PCs in my game wandered into a Fey demiplane where time was meaningless, I made a point of them NOT being able to rest, regain spells, or accomplish much of anything that required taking time to do it.
When the PCs tried to rest the first time, I let them putter around a bit, and then basically told them at some point that they really couldn't get to sleep, had no desire or urge to eat, and that at some point they realized that they had no idea how long they had been sitting there - it might of been five minutes or five years.
When they tried to accomplish some longer task requiring concentration, they weren't able to keep focus, and eventually they'd get that weird feeling again that they might have been staring at the task in front of them forever without actually getting anything done.
Well you would have hated me then. Okay, time is meaningless in the fey plane.. So at what time did I use my spells? Earlier? When was earlier.. time is meaningless, so there was never a time i used my spells.
In fact, when did we enter this fey demiplane? Time is meaningless in it, so we never did actually enter the demiplane and yet we were here the whole time.
Do we run into ourselves? Did that three rounds of combat take three hours? Are our buffs still up.. We've had to have already accomplish our goal, so..
Essentially, I would divide by zero collapsing the demiplane of the fey especially if time = consciousness. Prepare for bill and teds most excellent adventure.
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Well you would have hated me then. Okay, time is meaningless in the fey plane.. So at what time did I use my spells? Earlier? When was earlier.. time is meaningless, so there was never a time i used my spells.
In fact, when did we enter this fey demiplane? Time is meaningless in it, so we never did actually enter the demiplane and yet we were here the whole time.
Do we run into ourselves? Did that three rounds of combat take three hours? Are our buffs still up.. We've had to have already accomplish our goal, so..
Essentially, I would divide by zero collapsing the demiplane of the fey especially if time = consciousness. Prepare for bill and teds most excellent adventure.
You must be fun to play with.
Only when you attempt to impose all the negatives of something while also not giving the benefits.
Like our DM for a different game had a monster who was on fire, being chased by several people, in the middle of the day, try to hide by jumping off the side of the road. The monster didn't have any sort of HIPS ability and was in the process of being attacked, not only by me, but a helichopper, a truck filled with nazi zombies, a samurai and a character who did legitimately have the ability to hips. I was also able to move so fast at this time, that I could walk on falling leaves.
I'm running a group through the Runelords AP. One of the characters is a cleric of Sarenrae who prays to regain daily spells "at sunrise."
Currently the group is within Runeforge, which is on its own demiplane, under a mountain, at a different latitude from the one the cleric is usually at.
While inside Runeforge, the party has had no urge to eat or drink, and although they did spend one night there, they suspect they slept more out of habit than need. They're now thinking of spending several more nights there, in order to craft a Type IV bag of holding to haul out more loot.
If I remember the wording from the core book correctly, the times of prayers are a guideline not an absolute. They are given as a general time when the worshippers typically congregate and pray. Similar to saying 'most Christians pray on Sunday morning'
A cleric can pray any time of day if they have had 8 hours of rest. If sleep is not needed on this plane then 8 hours of restive downtime should be enough to clear out the days stress and refocus the mind for the next 'day'.
A cleric can pray any time of day if they have had 8 hours of rest. If sleep is not needed on this plane then 8 hours of restive downtime should be enough to clear out the days stress and refocus the mind for the next 'day'.
Getting 8 hours rest isn't her issue, on this plane or any other. Clerics don't need rest but they do hold daily meditation at a certain time each day:
"Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells."
"Choose a time each day" would allow picking a different time every day; "choose a time, at which..each day" means each cleric can pick whatever time suits her, and then stick with it. This cleric, as a worshipper of Saranrae, decided sunrise would be appropriate.
Technically, nothing says "once chosen, this time cannot be changed", but random selection or basing the meditation time on immediate personal need or convenience would seem to violate the devotional spirit of the thing.
One of the players in the game pitched the idea that clerics just have a supernatural sense of when it's time for daily meditation, no matter where they are, not unlike some stories that give vampires the ability to sense the exact amount of time left until sunrise, or a werewolf the ability to sense the exact time remaining before full moonrise. I might go with that. Haven't decided yet.
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A cleric can pray any time of day if they have had 8 hours of rest. If sleep is not needed on this plane then 8 hours of restive downtime should be enough to clear out the days stress and refocus the mind for the next 'day'.Getting 8 hours rest isn't her issue, on this plane or any other. Clerics don't need rest but they do hold daily meditation at a certain time each day:
"Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells."
"Choose a time each day" would allow picking a different time every day; "choose a time, at which..each day" means each cleric can pick whatever time suits her, and then stick with it. This cleric, as a worshipper of Saranrae, decided sunrise would be appropriate.
Technically, nothing says "once chosen, this time cannot be changed", but random selection or basing the meditation time on immediate personal need or convenience would seem to violate the devotional spirit of the thing.
One of the players in the game pitched the idea that clerics just have a supernatural sense of when it's time for daily meditation, no matter where they are, not unlike some stories that give vampires the ability to sense the exact amount of time left until sunrise, or a werewolf the ability to sense the exact time remaining before full moonrise. I might go with that. Haven't decided yet.
Actually, Sarenrae, being the goddess of the sun, is the one who chose sunrise as prayer time for all her clerics. It's not up to the individual cleric, in this case.
But I'd say that as long as the cleric is trying their best to guesstimate when sunrise would be, and stick with it every day, that would probably be a good enough show of devotion for the goddess. I don't really buy the supernatural timing sense thing, but Sarenrae is aware that the world isn't perfect, and sometimes her clerics have to improvise. I'm sure she'd still grant them the spells as long as they're trying to stick with their rituals.
Heck, what would a cleric of Sarenrae do at the north or south poles, where the days or nights last for months?
Actually, Sarenrae, being the goddess of the sun, is the one who chose sunrise as prayer time for all her clerics.
Where is that written?
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Where is that written?
Actually, Sarenrae, being the goddess of the sun, is the one who chose sunrise as prayer time for all her clerics.
I don't have the book in front of me, but I probably read it in Gods and Magic. Actually, it might have been her followers and not the goddess herself who chose sunrise, but it's the whole religion that prays at sunrise - every one of her priests at every temple.
I checked gods and magic, and Faiths of Purity. Neither one had the clause unless I missed it.
Heck, what would a cleric of Sarenrae do at the north or south poles, where the days or nights last for months?
Use the time of sunrise over Mecca? :)
And we're back to: how do you know when to pray if your normal devotion time is set by visual natural cues unavailable to you for days at a stretch?
I expect I'll end up waiving it. The goal here was to make characters aware that extended extraplanar travel isn't just a trip to the market, not to slow down the game or make things very difficult for spellcasters.
I checked gods and magic, and Faiths of Purity. Neither one had the clause unless I missed it.
Possibly the Inner Sea Campaign Setting book, or AP #20?
Not in those either.
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I checked gods and magic, and Faiths of Purity. Neither one had the clause unless I missed it.
Ok, I imagined it. I looked it up in Gods and Magic, and there's a line about the typical cleric of Sarenrae starting the day at dawn with a prayer to the rising sun. I guess somehow, my mind remembered that as meaning that they always had morning prayers at dawn.
Given the Sarenrae's backstory and characteristics, though, I really can't imagine her clerics praying for spells at any other time of day.
I played a cleric of a sun god. His preferred time of meditation was at dawn to greet the emblem of his patron deity. However, there were times when morning just didn't happen and the cleric made his prayers at noon when the sun was highest and strongest. Even some times at dusk to bid farewell, thankful for a day and grateful for the knowledge that "the sun'll come out tomorrow."
Your DM may have allowed it, but it's not RAW.
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, she must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, she must wait until the next day to prepare spells.
Emphasis added. Add in the Recent Casting Limit --
at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared.
-- and it's no wonder virtually every cleric prays for spells when they wake up. Otherwise, by RAW, they can't replace any spells they cast during the adventuring day.
This sort of question was talked about in the Jade Regent AP, but I can't remember what was said and don't have time now to look. Maybe check the JR section of the forum.