What do you think about a pacifist bard? And with pacifist I mean he would not cause harm directly by using weapons or damaging spells. He would not be above boosting his comrades or hindering opponents so they can be defeated more easily by his party though. He would just not do it himself, but he would probably prefer peaceful solutions if at all possible.
This is for a Jade Regent campaign, and I want to build this character to take advantage of the romance rules (i.e. high Charisma, good Diplomacy). I might want to take a few level of harrower later on, and I'd want to start with the Harrowing feat.
Do you think such a character is feasible in the long run?
Can you do nonlethal? If so, that helps a ton.
I guess that would be acceptable in self-defense.
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See if your DM would allow the 3.5 feat Vow nonviolence and Vow of Peace from BOED. Been a while but if you cause no harm to living things you get some awesome benefits. By no harm they leave open non-lethal damage and you can destroy constructs and undeads without violation.
Benefits
- +'s to DC of select abilities / spells
- any non magical weapon that strikes you is destroyed and you take no damage (no S.T.). magical weapons receive a S.T. (usually the PC's) or based on caster level of who created the item.
Some major ristrictions though and you have to be Good alignment.
Thanks, WhipShire, but 3.5 stuff is completely out. This is a Pathfinder RPG only campaign (for which I'm grateful). Also, in my mind's eye, he's probably chaotic good, and as such not a fan of vows in general. The pacifism is more of an ethical issue. And from an in-game perspective, swearing a vow of abstention from something you wouldn't do anyway, sounds cheap. :)
Have you looked into the Evangelist?
This concept is possible, but... You would get bored during combat due to the few spells bard get, and you not being able to do anything but spells.
Well, the evangelist is a cleric, and I want to play a bard. It's close, but it's not the same.
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This concept is possible, but... You would get bored during combat due to the few spells bard get, and you not being able to do anything but spells.
I agree with cheapy... unless it is a heavy RP game which PF adventure paths have a fair amount of combat.
Maybe you could convince you GM to do a round robin with your characters. Have a RP peace loving PC and another more normal for the combat sections... maybe a bodyguard for the peace loving bard?
I'm not sure that's a good idea, the group is big enough with six players I think, and it would be like Leadership for free. As a GM, I'd be opposed to it myself.
Evangelist is a slightly less awesome bard :-D
Is your character against personally hurting others, but not against violence? I am trying to wrap my head around someone who is a pacifist but helps others kill more efficiently. I am sure it can be done, but I haven't had coffee yet.
Take a look at the magician archetype. They are best suited for a caster bard. I tried a caster bard for a year. Didn't work out so well, but this was pre-APG. :-(
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My bard/harlot in PFSOP is just leveling to 5th, and has never caused one HP of damage. Can't in fact hurt anyone. I do tell everyone as I sit at the table this, in case it'll be a problem. I have used Beguiling Gift to give a BEG a set of Manicals, and I often disarm (calling for them "to give it up huney, and we can talk about it"). You can check out her build by clicking her name, though I haven't finished her build out (I'll try to do that later today).
I ran another character in LG (3.5) with much the same build - for 6 years.
But I enjoy that style of play, so it's fun for me. I know it's not for everyone.
Oh, one trick I tried with another caster bard (It'll work someday!) was by using a feat from 3.5 called Unsettling Enchantment.
-2 to AC and to-hit when affected by an enchantment spell, whether it sticks or not.
Unwitting Ally is a 0th level enchantment spell for Bards.
If this is allowed as a special exception, you will always have something to do. You can always make it so someone has a harder time hitting your ally :)
I do recall hearing about a "Diplomancer" build in 3.5 as well that focused on diplomacy and the ability to do standard action Diplo checks.
One level of Street Performer (and a slight bending of the rules, OK it with your GM) will let you make a bluff check in place of a diplomacy check as a standard action. This effect lasts for one round.
Then follow up with a *real* diplomacy check. This is the rules bendy bit, since it does say it goes back to one worse than before. But if you can boost it up high enough before it goes down...
Evangelist is a slightly less awesome bard :-D
Is your character against personally hurting others, but not against violence? I am trying to wrap my head around someone who is a pacifist but helps others kill more efficiently. I am sure it can be done, but I haven't had coffee yet.
Take a look at the magician archetype. They are best suited for a caster bard. I tried a caster bard for a year. Didn't work out so well, but this was pre-APG. :-(
I'm not yet too firm on the pacifist concept, but, yes the plan was just to leave out directly harming others. I guess he might be opposed to supporting too offensive behavior and uses his support to help his friends to better defend themselves against attackers. However that's the role-playing part which isn't really what I think this thread is about. That doesn't mean I don't want to talk about it, though. Here's how I've come to this.
It was an idea I got for a bard that isn't necessary a "game standard". My first bard idea was an archer bard, similar to a character played in one of my campaigns, but in a way I would only be copying a build which seems kind of lame to me. And, since I want to play the romance game with the character, the Dex requirements would cost me in the Cha department. Also, archery, while effective, is boring. Another idea would be using Dervish Dance, but that would need good Dex too and - being kelish and Sarenrae-based - clash a bit culturally with the image of the Varisian (or maybe half-Varisian) rake who dabbles a bit in fortune-telling as learned from his family and sees himself as a bit larger-than-life figure who likes the ladies. OK, sorry for the rambling.
The problem with the magician - as with most interesting bard archetypes - is that it replaces inspire courage, which I think of as essential for this character: if he won't attack himself and can't inspire courage, then there isn't really much point to him in combat.
Regarding the "diplomancer", diplomacy worked a lot different in 3.5 and in Pathfinder you can only improve attitude by two step at most at once, so I don't think that tactic mentioned would work consistently.
Unwitting ally sounds like a good choice for a cantrip.
My bard/harlot in PFSOP is just leveling to 5th, and has never caused one HP of damage. Can't in fact hurt anyone. I do tell everyone as I sit at the table this, in case it'll be a problem. I have used Beguiling Gift to give a BEG a set of Manicals, and I often disarm (calling for them "to give it up huney, and we can talk about it"). You can check out her build by clicking her name, though I haven't finished her build out (I'll try to do that later today).
I ran another character in LG (3.5) with much the same build - for 6 years.
But I enjoy that style of play, so it's fun for me. I know it's not for everyone.
Thanks for you inspiration, beguiling gift sounds nice, and Disarming might be in interesting tactic. A whip would work, but that would require a decent Strength score as well as Int 13 a least for Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm later on.
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Thanks for you inspiration, beguiling gift sounds nice, and Disarming might be in interesting tactic. A whip would work, but that would require a decent Strength score as well as Int 13 a least for Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm later on.My bard/harlot in PFSOP is just leveling to 5th, and has never caused one HP of damage. Can't in fact hurt anyone. I do tell everyone as I sit at the table this, in case it'll be a problem. I have used Beguiling Gift to give a BEG a set of Manicals, and I often disarm (calling for them "to give it up huney, and we can talk about it"). You can check out her build by clicking her name, though I haven't finished her build out (I'll try to do that later today).
I ran another character in LG (3.5) with much the same build - for 6 years.
But I enjoy that style of play, so it's fun for me. I know it's not for everyone.
actually I sometimes combine it with Truestrike - but yes I do the Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm. The Unwitting Ally also looks like a good spell - but I haven't gotten to use it yet.
Street Performer works OK, not as good as it looks though. It works better with Lingering Performance - so you can distract to make an Ally "invisible" and pull an injured friend out of combat (I also use Vanish for this), or allow him to stand up if he's been tripped (no AOO that way).
An Archivist gets a defensive version of Inspire Courage.
You could be a hippy professor!
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As mentioned earlier, Daze is a cantrip, so you can spam it all you want. With high cha, it should be pretty good at low levels. Obviously, you'll want a wand of Cure Light Wounds as early as possible. Timely Inspiration and Gallant Inspiration are cool buff spells that you can use on your allies in a fight. This type of character could probably be done with just bard spells and bardic performance.
The main issue I have with it is the RP side of the pacifism. I recently played one session with someone playing a similar pacifist Oracle character, and it was just annoying. You'll have to find a balance between not participating in lethal combat and not getting in the way of your allies in an annoying way. Our Oracle insisted on healing goblins who we'd seen ambushing innocent travelers after we got them down to dying, rather than let us kill them. If we're nowhere near a city, what exactly are we supposed to do with prisoners?
It can probably be done, but besides finding that balance between pacifism and interference, I'd also want to ask for a good story reason why a pacifist would even be a professional adventurer in this type of world.
As mentioned earlier, Daze is a cantrip, so you can spam it all you want. With high cha, it should be pretty good at low levels. Obviously, you'll want a wand of Cure Light Wounds as early as possible. Timely Inspiration and Gallant Inspiration are cool buff spells that you can use on your allies in a fight. This type of character could probably be done with just bard spells and bardic performance.
The main issue I have with it is the RP side of the pacifism. I recently played one session with someone playing a similar pacifist Oracle character, and it was just annoying. You'll have to find a balance between not participating in lethal combat and not getting in the way of your allies in an annoying way. Our Oracle insisted on healing goblins who we'd seen ambushing innocent travelers after we got them down to dying, rather than let us kill them. If we're nowhere near a city, what exactly are we supposed to do with prisoners?
It can probably be done, but besides finding that balance between pacifism and interference, I'd also want to ask for a good story reason why a pacifist would even be a professional adventurer in this type of world.
Some good tips there, thank you. I'll try to play him both not directly participating in combat and not being too annoying. It's not my plan to be annoying, and he certainly won't be sympathetic to evil monsters or evil NPCs. I think I'll take the general idea and just let it play out and develop from there. in any case, I want him to be a useful party member, and certainly not a hindrance.
Are you allowed to use non-official content ?
'Cause I got one or two nice bards archetypes that don't even need to attack to be efficient.
I think it depends where the content is coming from and what my GM thinks. It might be possible but I wouldn't count on it. Where do thones archetypes come from?
An Archivist gets a defensive version of Inspire Courage.
You could be a hippy professor!
Yeah, I've been thinking about that. The archivist can come across a bit as an annoying know-it-all, though.
Oh, one weird thing:
Magic Lore (Ex): At 2nd level, an archivist gains a bonus on Spellcraft checks to identify magic items or decipher scrolls equal to half his bard level and may take 10 on such checks
Why do I need this ability to be able to take 10 on this kind of Spellcraft check? Any trained character can do that, right?
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I think it depends where the content is coming from and what my GM thinks. It might be possible but I wouldn't count on it. Where do thones archetypes come from?
From there. My archetypes are quite successful these days, including in terms of positive feedback, as shown on the original thread. I'm thinking specifically to the Ballroom Dancer and the Mime Artist in your case.
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Have you looked at Treantmonk's bard optimization guide? He had an idea for a controller bard that used nets and whips for tripping up enemies instead of trying to kill them. Some his ideas might work for you.
Also, have you settled on a race? I think there was one race (Half elf perhaps? Don't remember off the top of my head) that could get extra rounds per day of bardic performance as his favored class bonus. If buffing is your main contribution to the party, then that could be useful, along with the obvious feats (Lingering Performance, Extra Performance).
Do you know what the rest of the party composition is?
So you're a Technical Pacifist. Or just not wanting to get your own hands dirty, which is a quality of a few Big Bads I recall.What do you think about a pacifist bard? And with pacifist I mean he would not cause harm directly by using weapons or damaging spells. He would not be above boosting his comrades or hindering opponents so they can be defeated more easily by his party though. He would just not do it himself, but he would probably prefer peaceful solutions if at all possible.
And also quite a few Big Goods.
Could go Songhealer also. But thinking of the professor idea here are some spells that make sense, of course the Cure Spells are an option
0 Level-Mending, Resistance, Flare, Daze, Light, Unwitting Ally
1st Level-Comprehend Languages, Dancing Lantern, Anticipate Peril, Fumbletongue, Unprepared Combatent, Sleep, Saving Finale, Timely Inspiration
2nd Level-Ancestral Communion, Accute Senses, Blood Biography, Book Ward, Calm Emotions, Code Speak, Compassionate Ally, Enthrall, Gallant Inspiration, Heroism, Honeyed Tongue, Hypnotic Pattern, Qualm, Silence, Tongues, Suggestion, Oppressive Boredom, Inivisibility, Fox's Cunning
Anyhow I won't bore you all by the other levels, but depending on how your professor wants to be played these are the kind of spells that you can use, and NEVER do a point of damage
Naturalist gives +1 to AC and to-hit, as well as +1 to saves vs a creature's Ex, Su, and Sp abilities. So it'll work on Humans. Just make a Knowledge (Local) check. I can see where the confusion over whether all those bonuses work against just the Ex, Su, and Sp abilities comes from. But you don't get attack rolls against those abilities, so clearly that just modifies the saving throws.
Not sure what you think Cheapy. But at first I thought that sounds awful, but reading through the thread and just going through the first couple levels of spells, I am coming around
If you go human you can also get the bonus spells as well.
I'd work a lot on healing and debuffs and ways to hinder foes without hurting them--for example, using the grease spell to slip them up and keep them from advancing on you.
He'd probably constantly be finding ways to talk the enemies into surrender (and even into redemption, depending on his motivation). Have high Diplomacy to change those attitudes, maybe Perception, Sense Motive and other skills to determine why someone is fighting you. Won't work for the GRRBLRGHKILL demon, but if a humanoid attacks you, there's usually a reason, and he'd be a good character to determine what it is--money? vengeance?--and find a counter offer to talk him into ending the attack.
Since the party gets XP based on resolving an encounter in any way possible, everyone still gets XP if you talk an enemy down rather than kill him.
You might also think about your character's attitudes towards different kinds of creatures and why he doesn't want to hurt others. If it's because he feels harming another person with a soul is wrong--does that mean it's okay to be violent to undead, constructs, and outsiders? On the other hand, if he is loathe to simply fight at all, there's got to be a reason for that... and it will help determine how far he's willing to go when dealing with encounters.
Naturalist gives +1 to AC and to-hit, as well as +1 to saves vs a creature's Ex, Su, and Sp abilities. So it'll work on Humans. Just make a Knowledge (Local) check. I can see where the confusion over whether all those bonuses work against just the Ex, Su, and Sp abilities comes from. But you don't get attack rolls against those abilities, so clearly that just modifies the saving throws.
Since you have to make a knowledge check to get the bonus. Seems like a massive skill sink, how on earth are you supposed to keep up with that?
Bardic Knowledge helps a ton.
I suspect their Lore Master not allowing taking 10 is a mistake. How strange.
If I were the GM I would rule that a book could be a non-lethal weapon, and then have him take Catch Off Guard.
Do you know what the rest of the party composition is?
It's not fixed yet. There will be an oracle of battle and a witch though. One player is deciding between druid and wizard, another on Rogue or fighter, and the sixth player is considering a summoner currently.