So, the game I'm playing in had a combat go bad, half the party wiped, and we're doing a reset. Set five years later. We're doing some high power hijinks. Lvl5, 30 Point Buy, and two sets of 4 rolls from the tiefling variant abilities, pick one per set. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fiendish-heritage)
I rolled:
53 You possess the scent special ability.
46 You gain an additional +2 racial bonus on your Intelligence.
29 You gain a +1 bonus on all Reflex saving throws.
74 Once per day, as a spell-like ability, you can animate a Small or smaller object for a number of rounds equal to your level. Treat this object as an animated object.
And:
9 You gain an additional +2 racial bonus on your Charisma.
39 Once per day you can benefit from a burst of speed, moving at double your normal speed for 1 round.
90 You gain an additional +2 racial bonus on your Wisdom.
96 You can use ventriloquism at will as a spell-like ability.
So, clearly the most potent are the stat boosts (well, the Int is only potent if I make an Int caster. Otherwise Scent is probably best, maybe the animating an object could have some utility stuff as well).
That's the character creation stuff.
Two players have locked in as TWF Ninja and Beast Rider Cavalier (Rhino, Lance). Another has no idea (he just played a Fighter), while another is considering musketeer or 2hander fighter (he rolled the ability to use large weapons).
This means we've got DPS out the ears, but no casting. I'd had my backup characters (with concept and roughly sketched backstories) as a pistolero or kensei dervish magus. But I feel the Kensei can't really be considered an arcanist when you're just using spells to increase damage, mostly.
Now my issue is (besides needing inspiration for another class): I was playing a witch, and I feel that if I play another arcane caster, I'll play it the same way (glitterdust, web, etc.) and I'll feel like I'm playing the same character only without hexes. If I make divine caster, I might get stuck on healbot duty, and well, I don't want to be there.
If I did the Gunslinger, I'd take +2 Wis for Grit, and Scent or Animate.
If I did the Kensei, I'd take the +2 Int and +2 Wis probably.
If I helped the party out by being a full caster...well, I dunno.
So, any suggestions for what I should do? Is there anything really cool I can do with this stuff? I was kind of considering an Infernal blooded Tiefling Sorcerer (taking the actual Fiendish Heritage feat to have a +2 cha version of the tiefling, with +2 from the rolled variant ability, and then fiendish sorcery to have an effective +6 cha for sorcery. But I'm not really convinced that's going to be any good).
You could always go with Oracle with haunted curse. Solid spell casting abilities depending on build and ability to heal when needed.
I would take the 2nd set of bonuses and as the +2 Charisma and +2 Wisdom, along w/ other two powers are very nice. Ventriloquism at will as a spell like ability would be very fun to have.
Also you could do a mean cleric with that second set of abilities.
It's one ability per set, not all abilities from one set. Sorry if I was unclear.
Divine casters seem unfocused to me in general. Lacking in battlefield control, they buff, then play second-fiddle melee or ranged support, or worse, dedicated healer. Any suggestions to make it fun? Our last Oracle (Lore mystery) was forced into healbot role (partly because of his spell selection, partly because our DPS characters just get focus fired down quick). Then he died.
I also kind of want to avoid summoning, because our combats take a long time as is. Given how high powered our creation stats are, the enemies will be scaled for it, and I think the summons will lag behind in combat contribution.
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Go Cleric or Oracle.
If you are starting at level 1 I will suggest Cleric, due to the better spell progression. If you are starting at lv 10+ I will suggest Oracle, as most of the short comings of Orcale, 1 lv behind in lesser restoration, breath of life, is out of the way.
If you do want to be a debuffer, both Cleric and Oracle can be made into bebuffers. Witch covers a wider range of spells... so its up to you, but Clerics and Oracles are better at keeping your party going via Restoration, remove spells and breath of lifes.
If you don't want to go pure healing, I would suggest looking at Mystery of Heaven for oracles. For clerics you could look at Domain of Luck and Domain of Travel. I'm currently working on a build right now for new group that is going to be starting up in Ptolus and I've been hashing out what I want to play. We don't have nearly that much room to work with though power wise, we're just doing high fantasy - 20 point builds.
Starting at level 5, Secane. What I'm saying is that I just played a witch, and I'd like to change up the experience. Casting heals and remove and such spells is a boring task for me. Leader is my favorite role in 4e since your support is tied into your badass powers and healing is a minor (essentially swift) action, while in Pathfinder (no offense) you only get to fix someone up and your turn is done. And more often than not, you have to get close to them and try not to die while casting your fix.
Dodson, I've looked at the heavens mystery before, because flavor-wise, I like it. I've considered an Oracle with clouded vision, seeing just starry night skies past his range of focus. The problem is...it just seems unfocused as a mystery. You get a variety of random abilities that don't tie together to achieve a purpose. A buffed color spray is nice, but fascinating isn't very potent. I don't know many other illusion (pattern) spells to cast.
if your group is not about optimizing, I would go scent & ventriloquism witch. Lower AC, saves, or whatever the party needs, and get a few healing spells.
if you want caster, well you've got all the options, too bad +wis and +cha are on the same list, so it's about even between wizard and cleric/oracle. The latter seems good in order to heal, but battlefield control is not to be sneezed at.
Edit: Pro for witch, extremely fast in combat (evil eye and cackle, and it's 90% of the time better than the alternative that takes you a minute to find) and halfway decent battlefield controller. Beastbonded will help you survive, but its abilities need some GM fiat I guess.
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Since you want to avoid summoning, I'd avoid the Animate Object ability, since that's essentially Summon Animated Object.
So, your powers are:
Scent or +2 Int
and
+2 Cha or +2 Wis
If there weren't so many DPS folks, I'd vote for a Scent + Speed barbarian.
Scent + Wis would be good for a Druid, but since you don't want a summoner, I'll hold off on that.
If you like buffing and battlefield control, an Int + Cha bard becomes a strong possibility. Decent spells, can hold his own in combat, and a good candidate for a Dazzling Display debuffer.
I also like a Scent + Cha Sorcerer, or even a Scent + Wis Empyreal Sorcerer. For a wizard, I'd make an Int + Cha Enchanter or an Int + Wis anything else.
Make an AlcheBard!! Take CHA and INT
I think storm druid trades summoning for casting weather spells with more battlefield control is something you could look into.
The thing is Richard, I just had a witch. I can't make a witch again.
And the party is definitely into optimizing. I rather am, myself.
Multiclassing just tends to result in weakness, Carson. Your spells will be behind. Your BAB will be behind. Unless you're getting something specific from it (like dipping Monk for Wis AC on a Wis caster), you're going to be less than the sum of your parts. I'm also a firm believer that a character's RP potential is not tied to their mechanics. I'm guessing you've had some RangerDruid/Sorcerer that you've had fun RPing before, but to me that sounds very spread thin in power.
InVino, this is more along the analysis I'm looking for. If I were playing a DPS character, I'd just take the Wis and Scent (I love the smell of black powder, right after it burns...) for a slinger, or the Int and Wis on a Kensei.
I'll have to read up more in Treantmonk's Bard guide, but nothing really struck me there. Dazzling Display doesn't seem very significant, unless you're going to Shatter Defenses.
I am considering Sorcerer, and just casting the same spells my Witch did. The bloodlines don't seem like they really do much, is there anything I'm missing out on?
Vuvu - What? I don't see the synergy there.
doctor_wu - I'll consider the druid. I guess there's more stuff he can do besides summoning, though the abilities of the storm druid itself seem rather lackluster.
Thanks for the feedback so far, I'd still like more detailed advice for class suggestions though. I know you guys don't have to, but try to sell me why a class is cool. And don't try to sell me the Witch, I know it's cool gosh darnit, I just played one ;_;
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I'll have to read up more in Treantmonk's Bard guide, but nothing really struck me there. Dazzling Display doesn't seem very significant, unless you're going to Shatter Defenses.
I am considering Sorcerer, and just casting the same spells my Witch did. The bloodlines don't seem like they really do much, is there anything I'm missing out on?
Dazzling Display is better not for just you, but as a general no-save debuff for everyone nearby that your partymates plow through. In essence, Dazzling Display is your bard's Hex. If you don't like it, though, don't use it.
Sorcerer bloodlines you might like:
Maestro: Combine with Still Spell, and you start casting EVERYTHING at +1 CL.
Deep Earth: If you're underground a lot, this is a generally good choice.
Protean: Good with creation magic, like Web and Glitterdust. Also, free tanglefoot bags.
Arcane: What's not to like? Better metamagic and a familiar.
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First off; don't get railroaded into heal-bot if you don't want to be one. If the one players are DPR-obsessed guys who like trading full-attacks with BBEMs, then they can Leadership for heal-bot side-kicks.
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First off, your rolls have resulted in you being able to start with up to a +4 bonus to either DEX, WIS or INT, depending upon which demon spawn's racial set you stack with your alternative boons. Others have talked at length about sorcerers and oracles, so I'll explore a few others:
1) Wizard (30pt):
STR: 11
DEX: 18 (16+2[racial])
CON: 16
INT: 22 (17+2[racial]+2[fiendish]+l[4th]=22)
WIS: 14 (12+2[fiendish]=14]
CHA: 05 (07-2[racial]=05)
(Here we're rejecting the spawn choices and keeping ordinary racial adjustmants.)
Just so as to NOT be overpowering at 5th, and to paper over a Tieflings lack of racial weapons and a wizard's poor class skill set, we start with one melee class at 1st:
01 fighter [Cad], Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
02 wizard ...etc.
-- This gets you started fast on "I never miss with a Ray spell", gives you more hit points to share with your familiar, and adds Escape Artist to class skills. (Ranger is a better choice if you'd rather have more abilities and skills such as Perception at the expense of a feat.)
Alternative build: Higher CON for tougher familiar.
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2) Crossbow Monk/Cleric (30pt)
Asura-Spawn: DEX+2,WIS+2,INT-2 ... Fiendish alternatives: INT+2,WIS+2
Combined stat adjustments: DEX+2,WIS+4
STR: 10
DEX: 16 (14+2[spawn])
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 22 (17+2[spawn]+2[fiend]+l[4th]=22)
CHA: 14
Traits: birthmark, dangerously curious
01 cleric1 [Crusader:Abadar][Travel][WF:Light Crossbow], Guided Hand, 1st
02 monk1 [Hungry Ghost], Dodge, Punishing Kick
03 cleric2 Crusader's Flurry
04 cleric3 WIS>22, 2nd
05 cleric4 Rapid Reload
Note: this build would be a pain in the ass to play this way from 1st level -- you'd probably tuck in fighter to get feats quicker -- but it's good for starting at 5th: your attack-bonus is stupid high, and your WIS bonus to AC will be +7 with a headband. Flurry the crossbow versus distant targets; Punishing Kick and touch attacks deal with those who get in your face.
Equipment: +1/Seeking light-crossbow, arcane wands to UMD, DEX belt, WIS headband, haversack
AC at 5th: 25 with just the stat items and a cast of Mage Armor prior.
Typical attack at 5th: [3(BAB)+7(WIS:guided)+1(Bless)+1(enh) = +12, or +10/+10 Flurry
...annoyance: While it's not a huge deal, the only feat on a Crusader Cleric's list which isn't a 100% waste on a no-shields monk is Martial Weapon Proficiency...but there's really nothing worth having, and it'd be annoying to have to equip without Quick Draw. (In melee, we normally Punishing Kick to keep people from threatening, or make touch-attacks.)
Alternative build: monk-based, with only one level of cleric, and other built like a Zen archer but with crossbow. Level or two of fighter for feats (you could Flurry and Manyshot with such a concept because you won't be a Zen).
I'd argue for taking that +2 CHA and going for a bard. The +2 INT could help with skills, you could go for the scent (Ooooh! Be a detective bard with scent) or even the animate objects just for fun. Bard archetypes give plenty of options for a number of roles. Want some melee fun with your bard? Go for an arcane duelist. Need trapfinding? Go archaeologist. A fan of the 3.5 beguiler? Go sandman. Bard would be a great change of pace for you and still give you casting (very nice support casting too, which is great in a party of melees). If only Cheapy were here to help me espouse the virtues of the bard class.
Go with Mike's Wizard build, but go Mindchemist instead. Focus on status effects with the bombs and play a battlefield controller. Kirin strike plus targeted admixture plus Fox's cunning plus frost bomb at level 5 is 3d6+40 damage DC 22 or be staggered with a standard action + swift.
You can also do some infusion for some awesome buffs for your friends. Now they can enlarge themselves, at level 2 or so. And then, later, Clones!
Edit, sorry cant do this until level nine, or 6 if you take two levels of Master of Many styles...
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First up, I 2nd Mike's Wizard. If your party is all DPR and you don't want to be support/healer, then JOIN them in deal tons of damage all round.
With 30 points, you could also spec into a summoner wizard. (You sill deal damage, just via summons.) Which will give you battlefield control as you tie up the enemies with monsters that pops up in their midst. There is even a trait that give +1hp for each hitdice your Summoned monsters have.
Remember in Pathfinder, summons have their own turns, and they act the moment they "pop" out. (Take that! 4th ed!) So they can attack the enemies the moment they appear! Nothing stops a gang of charging enemies better then a gang of summoned monsters charging into them!.
Note, going down to 5 cha, should only be taken if that is what you are going for... its kinda of a optimization overkill.
You DO WANT to have a good con stat of at least 12-14. I had many "spell-casters" die on me cos they have only half the hp of most of the party and 1 good fireball/lighting spell drops them into neg death instantly. (A cleric can only heal the living at lower levels... sigh...)
Starting at level 5, Secane. What I'm saying is that I just played a witch, and I'd like to change up the experience. Casting heals and remove and such spells is a boring task for me. Leader is my favorite role in 4e since your support is tied into your badass powers and healing is a minor (essentially swift) action, while in Pathfinder (no offense) you only get to fix someone up and your turn is done. And more often than not, you have to get close to them and try not to die while casting your fix.
You came from 4e too? Same here! Now I know you don't want to play healer, so this is just extra info:
On healing as a swift action. Clerics and Life Oracles can heal on a swift action with the right feats. The Quick Channel feat allows them to expend 2 uses of their channel to make a channel as a swift action. Couple this with a standard action heal, and you can heal A LOT. The feat Selective Channeling is recommended with Quick channel, as it allows you yo "avoid" enemies that you don't want to heal.
This means you can channel, then cast a spell, all in 1 round. Just a FYI.
Thanks Mike, interesting stuff. I don't think I'd be able force myself to take a *gulp* fighter level in a wizard build. And we're allowed to be other races, the tiefling chart rolls is just a random little power boost we got.
The crossbow flurry build is very interesting. Very feat intensive though for sure, and I'm skeptical about not getting Str to damage. Seems like you could do the same thing with Erastil though?
I should note that the Ninja has changed to a Summoner, so we've kind of got a caster. All this stuff remains useful though, since as soon as I jumped to make the gunslinger, the DM disallowed advanced firearms, and the revolver really was what I wanted to use.
Kirin Strike bomberman mindchemist sounds hilarious, Oterisk. A shame to wait till lvl9 to make it go online, but I'm sure an alchemist would pull his weight until then.
Secane: I know summons have their own turns, that why I wanted to stay away from them. I feel like my turns would be too long while I was commanding my tiny little army. I started on 3.0, and played through to 4e. I'm taking a break from 4e now and playing Pathfinder, there's some charm and nostalgia to it. Thanks for the tips.
I'm most interested in fleshing out the Mindchemist more, I'll see what I can do with it. I'll post my sheet when I've got some stuff down.
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Note, going down to 5 cha, should only be taken if that is what you are going for... its kinda of a optimization overkill.
If you're going to play a frightening demon-seed in a 30pt over-the-top campaign, play it to the hilt. PCs kind of glides around without visibly appearing to actually walk, is wrapped head-to-toe, but sometimes onlookers see a tentacle poking out....
-- The familiar does all the talking.
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Note, going down to 5 cha, should only be taken if that is what you are going for... its kinda of a optimization overkill.If you're going to play a frightening demon-seed in a 30pt over-the-top campaign, play it to the hilt. PCs kind of glides around without visibly appearing to actually walk, is wrapped head-to-toe, but sometimes onlookers see a tentacle poking out....
-- The familiar does all the talking.
The familiar sells it! Go low Cha! (At least for this game!)
:)