Summon Eidolon vs. Summon Monster SLA

[Devilkiller]

I'm a little confused about the Summon Eidolon spell. Some people say that you can use it to summon your eidolon and still use the Summon Monster SLA. That's not how I'm reading the rules though.

The rules for the Summoner's Summon Monster SLA say, "As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned."

The rules for the Summon Eidolon spell say:
"You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon. Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell. While summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.

If you cast this spell while your eidolon is already on your plane, this spell has no effect. This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage."

The SLA rules say you can only use the SLA when the eidolon isn't "summoned". The spell "summons" the eidolon. These seem like they shouldn't work together.

[FireclawDrake]

I would read it like you are. If the eidolon is present, then you cannot use Summon Monster.

[Black_Lantern]

Devilkiller wrote:

I'm a little confused about the Summon Eidolon spell. Some people say that you can use it to summon your eidolon and still use the Summon Monster SLA. That's not how I'm reading the rules though.

The rules for the Summoner's Summon Monster SLA say, "As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned."

The rules for the Summon Eidolon spell say:
"You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon. Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell. While summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.

If you cast this spell while your eidolon is already on your plane, this spell has no effect. This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage."

The SLA rules say you can only use the SLA when the eidolon isn't "summoned". The spell "summons" the eidolon. These seem like they shouldn't work together.

If you use the spell summon eidolon you can bypass the wording. Also being a master summoner allows to ignore the ruling.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

By this interpretation you could not cast Summon Monster from your Spells while your eidolon is out. The Summon Eidolon spell exists to get around this restriction for a few rounds a day.

[Rocky Williams 530]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

By this interpretation you could not cast Summon Monster from your Spells while your eidolon is out. The Summon Eidolon spell exists to get around this restriction for a few rounds a day.

You can cast summon monster as a spell when your eidolon is out. You cannot use the spell like ability while it's out.

Quote:

Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned.

It specifically says ability, not spell. The spell, in my opinion, exists to let you either summon it when you're caught without it out, due to the regular ritual taking 1 minute, or when the eidolon has died, you can re-summon it for a few rounds.

[Devilkiller]

Black Lantern, why do you feel that I can ignore the wording? The SLA rules say, "he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned". The spell description says repeatedly that it "summons" the eidolon, so I'd think that would mean the eidolon is "summoned". Is there another rule somewhere else which clarifies this, or has a developer ruled on it?

[Eric Clingenpeel]

It also says it uses the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. But using the spell to summon him is not the same as calling him. Otherwise you shouldn't be able to cast ANY spells and use your SLA's... if you follow your interpretation.

[David knott 242]

The rule is simple: If your eidolon is summoned (no specification of whether by spell or by ritual), you cannot use your Summon Monster SLA. On the other hand, there is no direct statement in the rules for the Summon Eidolon spell or in the summoning ritual that prohibits you from summoning your eidolon while a summoned monster is present.

That means that the order of operations is important. If you want both present, you must summon the monsters first. You wuuld then most likely want to use the Summon Eidolon spell, as the ritual would take up time that you probably don't have to spare.

Another option is to learn and cast one or more of the actual Summon Monster spells. There is no limitation on using those spells while your eidolon is present -- the only problem is that you don't get the extended duration that you get from the SLA.

[Black_Lantern]

Devilkiller wrote:

Black Lantern, why do you feel that I can ignore the wording? The SLA rules say, "he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned". The spell description says repeatedly that it "summons" the eidolon, so I'd think that would mean the eidolon is "summoned". Is there another rule somewhere else which clarifies this, or has a developer ruled on it?

The calling and sla share a power source not the spell and the ability. If you want more clarification check other threads because this topic has been discussed many times. As for the master summoner it says that you can ignore the ruling within the archetype.

[Devilkiller]

I'm not sure if the sharing a power source is rules text or flavor text. I'm definitely not looking at Master Summoner though since the DM is only allowing Core and APG.

To be clear, I'm not trying to rules lawyer this into working (or not working). I'd just like to know so that I'll be able to judge the value of investing two feats to get Augment Summoning. If I can use augmented monsters via SLA and still call in the eidolon via spell then Augmented Summoning is a great feat to have. If not then the SLA monsters are strictly for backup, so maybe the eidolon and I would both take Outflank (or whatever) instead.

Honestly the combination of eidolon plus SLA monsters seems like a little much in terms excessive actions per turn, but our group size varies from 3-7 PCs, so I thought it might be cool to whip some extra summons when PCs are MIA (the right outsiders can even sub for the Bard, Wizard, or Cleric a little bit).

[Sah]

Devilkiller wrote:

The rules for the Summon Eidolon spell say:
"You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon. Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell. While summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.

I think this is what people need to pay attention to. It is treated as if you summoned it normally, so that means no Summon Monster SLA.

I also would argue against the idea that because of wording you can use the SLA first and then summon the eidolon, because of how the wording is for why it does not work going the other way.

[Devilkiller]

I agree, Sah, I was hoping somebody could find an "official" ruling, but for now I'll play it that if the eidolon is around (for whatever reason) the SLA doesn't work (and vice versa with the eidolon ending the SLA).

[Pinky's Brain]

I think you're misunderstanding why people advise to use the spell ... it's simply a question of ordering, you first use the SLA and then you use the spell. That you lose the ability to use the SLA isn't that relevant most of the time because of the duration.

The Summoning of the Eidolon somehow ending the existing SLA is pulled completely out of thin air and goes against a whole lot of tradition of the way spells have been adjudicated in 3.5 (no official FAQ entry for this in PF though). Which is to say, prerequisites are only checked at the time of casting.

Personally I'd advise against using this approach unless you can quicken the Summon Eidolon spell though ... a well build Eidolon is so much more powerful than anything on the summon list that wasting even a single round of it's help is not worth it.

[Devilkiller]

I'm sure the eidolon will be pretty nice though honestly the one I have planned doesn't seem that much better than a summoned monster at some levels. It also needs to be healed while summoned monsters don't.

It seems to me like the intent is that you can't have the eidolon and the SLA monster out at the same time. The order of operations thing seems kind of odd to me. If it really works that way I guess I could spend 11 rounds to bring in the SLA monster and then summon the eidolon via the regular ritual. Now I've got close to level-1 minutes to wander around with both creatures active.

With 6 uses per day this could probably be enough to cover a daily dungeon crawl, especially at higher levels. That seems wrong to me. It is a little unclear when the rules say that the SLA "uses up" the same power the Summoner uses to call his eidolon though.