Level 12 Rogue Build


Advice

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Sczarni

For the "Dashing Rogue" style of character, I would focus your attention less on the fighting and stabbing, and more on the talking and stealing.

Assuming you are going to have the requisite Big Stupid Fighter, Spell-Slinging Wizard, and possibly another "optimal" character, just play your rogue as you would like to do so.

Some basic tips I've found, from playing BUNCHES of rogues in PF so far:

Do not dump Con. D8 HP + Favored Class + Decent Con + Toughness (if needed) has left my rogues with more HP than the fighter, sometimes. Certainly more HP than the Cleric (mostly).

High-Dex, dumping Str is a good way to ensure you go first, and then do little else that fight. Not having the Str to back up those non-Sneak Attack hits (because they WILL happen, from time to time) really sucks.

Reach weapons are your friend. Especially as a Spring-Attacking Scout...charge in with a longspear, skewer the opposition with some D6's, and Str*1.5 damage added in, then back away and wait for the AoO if they return the favor.

Use the situation to your advantage. Especially in PFS modules, there is generally several different ways to "succeed" at the goal. If you can sneak in, steal the object of the mission, and sneak out, try it! Bluff, misdirection, disguises, and the like are the lifeblood of the class. Don't forget that.

Finally, don't try to be the combat-master. You are not the Big Stupid Fighter, nor are you the I-can-do-your-job-too Wizard. Lean towards your strengths (asymmetrical attacks, unconventional tactics, winning hearts and minds, etc) and support your party in unexpected ways.


I straddle the line between munchkin and RP'er. Pre-game, I love delving into mechanics and modifiers, discovering new synergies and interactions. I really enjoy eeking every last drop of potential from a concept, and the tweaking usually revolves around combat (as the rest tends to fall into place).

... but the concept is king. Character and theme win out every time over DPR and number crunching. I'll ignore the most devastating synergy in favor of mechanics that better suit the theme. Rake versus Thug is a good example.

I'm also a vocal supporter of non-combat encounters. Many of my top 10 "Most Memorable Moments Evar" in pen-and-paper have been during sessions where not a single hit point is lost, not a drop of blood shed. Yet another reason why I'm opting for Rake over Thug. While Intimidate will no doubt find it's way into non-combat situations, so will Bluff and Diplomacy. The Rake fits better, plain and simple.

I have no intention of dumping Con (maybe Wisdom), and I consider Toughness a must-have feat. I'm also thinking of a dip into Fighter at 1st level, just to grab that full d10 of HP right off the hop.

I intend to have high Dex, but I've decided on 12 Str minimum. And not just for combat. A Rogue needs to climb, sir.

Reach weapons ... hmmmm, I need to look into that. Thanks for the suggestion!

I have a feeling this character will be a far cry from a combat-master. So long as he contributes, I'm happy. The numbers may be secondary, but I still enjoy crunching them.

Cheers!


Street Performer might work too, if you wanted Rake-ish abilities. Pump Perform(Oratory) to get it's bonus to Diplomacy and Sense Motive (3 skills for the price of one!) and get half your level to Bluff from Streetwise. Only problem is that they lack Inspire Courage, so you'll need to work a bit harder for to-hit bonuses.

I know your 99.999% dead set on rogue, but it doesn't hurt to know your options. Plus, I forgot about the bonus to bluff/diplomacy.


Actually, I was JUST gonna ninja-edit my previous post with:

Quote:
That said, I really do appreciate people coming in with advice on optimization. I'm always interested in what works and what doesn't!

So yeah, absolutely. Cheers Cheapy. Keep the advice comin'.

... 'cause knowing the half the battle-YOJOE!


Hey psionichamster, I have a question regarding Str. You mentioned not dropping the stat for the times that sneak attack fails. Have you played any PFS games using the agile enhancement (Dex to damage)? I'd still hesitate to drop Str below 10 (I don't like doing that with any stat, tbh), but I'm interested to hear your opinion. Dex to damage would seem to level the playing field a little (though far from optimal), assuming one intends to stick with light weapons and Finesse instead of 2h and the like.

Dark Archive

Of course there is the big reason to have 13 strength which is power attack. A longspear as a two-handed weapon would give you a -1 for +3 per four BAB, and reach is always handy for making sneak attacks work.

Silver Crusade

Dave Leach wrote:

Hey psionichamster, I have a question regarding Str. You mentioned not dropping the stat for the times that sneak attack fails. Have you played any PFS games using the agile enhancement (Dex to damage)? I'd still hesitate to drop Str below 10 (I don't like doing that with any stat, tbh), but I'm interested to hear your opinion. Dex to damage would seem to level the playing field a little (though far from optimal), assuming one intends to stick with light weapons and Finesse instead of 2h and the like.

Any time you require a magic item to make a character work. Is a bad design over all. That means until you get that item you will be under powered. And with needing 8,000GP for the (2) +1 Agile weapons you will be around level 6 ~ 8. Waiting that long for a character to come in to there ability to function is a bad idea on any ones part. You need to function as a character from level 1 ~ 12 for PFS. And the build as suggested dose not have that ability. So for the first half of your characters carer they are useless? No good build lets you be useless for that long. At the most If a character can not function by level 3 at optimal ability it's time for the scrap yard and start over.

Liberty's Edge

Cheapy wrote:
Dirge of Doom does not give shaken. It mimics it, but is not it.

Well that's a pain. Is that clearly stated somewhere? Because that's a sneaky rule otherwise as Dirge states:

A bard of 8th level or higher can use his performance to foster a sense of growing dread in his enemies, causing them to become shaken.

Meanwhile Shatter Defenses states:
Benefit: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.

So, by the Handbook these two work perfectly together. Was there an errata?


.... I was thinking of a different ability, doh.


Hi there, I'm gong to address the OP's original post, because I also remember 2nd edition.

Coming in from 2nd edition, the biggest change is that rogue-only skills are gone. Want to climb a wall? Anyone can do it, just put ranks in climb.

So, a lot of the posters above are right, you don't need a ROGUE at a Pathfinder table. It is still useful to have someone with lots of skill points, however. Remember though, that 9 skills a level for a human rogue with a 10 Int -IS- a lot of skill points.

Classic rogue blunder A: Maximize skills, neglect fighting.

This leads to the second point: The way a rogue fights is by using feats. You can grab the archery feats, mounted combat, power attack, etc. Whatever fighting style you want, it's feats that make it happen.

As is, you have fewer feats than other melee classes. Don't spend feats on things like skill focus unless you have been doing very well in combat for the last month.

Classic rogue blunder B: I don't have the feats to do the kind of fighting I want to do.

I will mention one more thing, and that's the most powerful skill in the game: Use Magic Device. This is what turns you from Jimmy into Bond, James Bond. With a SMALL investment into a few scrolls, you can sneak attack someone with a ball of fire (produce flame), reveal invisible opponents (faerie fire), detect for poison in the wine (obvious). Especially at 12th level, you've got +12 for levels, +3 for class skill, and maybe +2 for Charisma. To use a first level scroll, you have to roll a 1 or more.

Classic rogue blunder C: Trying to play higher levels without any magic

Finally, (and I'm amazed it wasn't mentioned), you may want to think about some levels of ranger. Still good on skills, better weapons, better hit dice, and bonus feats.

Ranger/rogue is a classic combo since 3.0, and it's still good. Think Robin Hood for an example.


calagnar wrote:
So for the first half of your characters carer they are useless? No good build lets you be useless for that long. At the most If a character can not function by level 3 at optimal ability it's time for the scrap yard and start over.

Wow. Pretty liberal with the word "useless" there, aren't ya?

So a character can't apply Dex to damage until level 6. Does that make him "useless"? Hardly. Optimal? Absolutely not, but I think I've made it pretty clear that optimization is not my goal. He functions perfectly well by level 3, just not at max damage output. If that makes him "useless", I suppose I should admit to playing dozens of useless characters in the past ... and I'll likely play a dozen more.

That said, I do appreciate your opinion. Thank you for your input.

Great points, rkraus, especially about not strictly NEEDING a Rogue.

I was pretty quick to realize that feats make the man (for Rogues more so than anyone else). Regarding Use Magic Device, that's the first thing the GM said when I mentioned a Rogue: "Get UMD". I believe a Ranger dip has been mentioned several times, as has Bard. I'm still toying with the notion of a Ranger/Rogue, currently considering several Ranger archetypes that compliment the concept (Urban being top of the list).


To expand on the ranger idea:

A guide ranger would work pretty well, even without urban ranger. Pick up traits that give diplomacy and bluff as class skills. Ease of Faith from the APG will give you diplomacy, and Fast-Talker (from APG) will give you Bluff. Both traits will also give you a +1 bonus to it.

You can use your combat style feats to help you get the weapon feats you need, and you can use the regular feats to get any roleplaying / skill focus / intimidation line of feats.

Don't want to be a froofy spellcaster? Take Skirmisher to get a number of nifty tricks to use. A lot of them are no save too.

If, for whatever reason, you still want to be high dex low strength with a ranger, you can take Two-Handed Weapon style to be able to grab power attack without prerequisites being met.

Ranger's Focus will help with the lack of damage from a high-dex build too.

And to a degree, I agree with calagnar. I like it when builds come together around level 3. Maybe level 5 at the absolute latest. If you're still waiting to be able to do the thing your entire character concept is about after level 4, something's wrong :) That whole issue is what caused me to institute a number of house rules in my games, where 3/4th BAB classes can take feats that require +1 BAB to take at 1st level, and everyone gets an extra feat at level 1.


There's also the trapper ranger archetype from Ultimate Magic that gives up spells for trapfinding and a few traps. Quite a bit weaker than the base ranger, but if your GM will consider it...


Hmm. Skirmisher is a great idea, Cheapy. Two of the tricks in particular have interesting applications with my concept: Rattling Strike and Quick Shift. Rattling Strike allows me to rethink the use of Rake, which is kind of a big deal ...... and a swift 5 foot move that doesn't provoke AoO? Yes, please.


I'll take a poke at it. Take the dust off the old character folder.
These 2 builds is what worked for me through 11 levels and it held together almost every encounter.

Stats. I won't throw numbers down because that would be presumptuous

#1
Str Medium to high for low level dmg.
Dex High should be your highest stat
Con Medium just plain keeps you alive
Int low to base 10
Wis base 10
Cha dump or base 10 if party face (let your skills cover your low cha)

Race Human for extra skill point and extra feat.

Feat allocation
1st Weapon Finesse + Dodge
2nd Rogue Talent / Quick Draw
3rd Sly Draw
4th Rogue Talent / Mobility
5th Step Up
6th Rogue Talent / Spring Attack
7th Following Step
8th Rogue Talent / Vital Strike
9th Step Up and Strike
10th Rogue Talent / Bleeding Attack (talent)
11th Improved Critical
12th Rogue Talent / Fast Getaway (talent)
This is fun to play but you have to keep moving in combat.
Best weapon rapier. Best ranged weapon any thrown weapon.

#2
Str base 10
Dex Highest stat
Con at least 12
Int Second Highest Stat
Wis base 10
Cha base 10

Race Elf for access to elf feats and Int bump.

Feat Allocation
1st Point Blank Shot
2nd Rogue Talent / Sniper Shot (talent)
3rd Precise Shot
4th Rogue Talent / Focused Shot
5th Deadly Aim
6th Rogue Talent / Surprise Attack (talent)
7th Elven Accuracy
8th Rogue Talent / Vital Strike
9th Shadow Strike
10th Rogue Talent / Snap Shot (talent)
11th Improved Initiative
12th Rogue Talent / Weapon training
This build is one dimensional but effective support shooter.
Best Weapon Long Bow. Best Melee weapon. Don't get into melee.

Best of luck there are few rogue purists left in PFS.


Thanks for the builds, Guy. Alas, my standing as an old school 2nd edition purist is in jeopardy, as I'm now leaning toward a Rogue/Ranger mash-up ...

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