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Ok this has been building up for awhile so I'm going to try and get it out in the politest and most respective way possible. I'm really tired of the rampant complaining, outright and borderline trolling going on. Just because paizo produces a product or idea you personally may not like doesn't mean you have to through a drama fit and yell how horrible it is. Yes I can understand how voicing your opinion in a respectable manner can be constructive feedback to the company. But this is not what I'm seeing for the most part, I see whining complaining, outright fallacies written in long form post to try and prove how one person on the internet is right and the whole company whose job it is to produce high quality gaming products, (who is itself made up of mostly gamers I might add) is wrong. I see people being either deliberately rude, or just not having the social maturity to able to reign in ones emotions enough to bring your point across in a constructive way. Yes I realize gaming is something we are all passionate about but you don't have to scream in panic at something you disagree with. Part of being an adult is controlling your emotions and how you portray yourself. Specifically I see this with the 4e/pathfinder edition wars (play what you like and leave the other alone). The rollplay vs roleplay debate (Play the way you like and leave others alone), and now the new pathfinder MMO ( Play what you like and leave others alone ). Frankly I think we could all benefit from a little emotional maturity when it comes to posting on these forums, there's no need to drive poor Ross/ Gary/ Liz/ whoever else crazy over having to delete so many inappropriate posts, a good rule of thumb is if you think your post could be inappropriate read it twice, take a breather then rewrite before posting. This community has so many great people and great ideas, we just need to be more socially responsible for our actions and words. Thanks I've said my piece.
Before this gets all crazy - just wanted to say that I agree with you. There's nothing wrong with respectful dissent - but you don't see a lot of that.
"Can't we all just get along?!"
Can't say that I disagree, but being as this is the Internet and an Open Forum with Moderators who give a certain degree of leeway to posts you'll always have a high signal to noise ratio. There will always be stuff we don't want/need to see and people who disagree or downright hate each other...and those who are just in it for the lulz.
That's the price we pay to have a relatively free forum.
"Can't we all just get along?!"
Can't say that I disagree, but being as this is the Internet and an Open Forum with Moderators who give a certain degree of leeway to posts you'll always have a high signal to noise ratio. There will always be stuff we don't want/need to see and people who disagree or downright hate each other...and those who are just in it for the lulz.
That's the price we pay to have a relatively free forum.
I think the point is go ahead and disagree, but respect the other person's right to have his own opinions.
Indeed. I find it shameful the way people have been bashing Pathfinder MMO. It's a great idea, even if it's a huge gamble, and people were pretty enthusiastic about it before the announcement. Paizo is sharp, bright and read the environment masterfully. Where they go, we have chosen to follow so far. We can choose to believe in them as they take this step too.
But discussing it with some people, you'd think they had their puppies kicked by Paizo for choosing to make an MMO. I gave up on discussing it because there was no tolerance in those threads. Ideas were distinctly unwelcome.
As much as I agree with the sentiment, I feel like you're not going to get the results you're looking for. I refer you to the Online Disinhibition Effect, known colloquially as John Gabriel's Greater Internet F#@%wad Theory. (Second link potentially NSFW for language, depending on the W.)
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As much as I agree with the sentiment, I feel like you're not going to get the results you're looking for. I refer you to the Online Disinhibition Effect, known colloquially as John Gabriel's Greater Internet F#@%wad Theory. (Second link potentially NSFW for language, depending on the W.)
You are probably right. But it still may be worth tilting at this particular windmill.
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Indeed. I find it shameful the way people have been bashing Pathfinder MMO. It's a great idea, even if it's a huge gamble, and people were pretty enthusiastic about it before the announcement. Paizo is sharp, bright and read the environment masterfully. Where they go, we have chosen to follow so far. We can choose to believe in them as they take this step too.
But discussing it with some people, you'd think they had their puppies kicked by Paizo for choosing to make an MMO. I gave up on discussing it because there was no tolerance in those threads. Ideas were distinctly unwelcome.
Exactly my point. For example myself I no longer have time for video games, with time for my family, work and tabletop gaming there is just no room for video games. But regardless, I wish paizo well on the venture and hope they succeed despite my disinterest in the project. Like I said before we are all adults and need to realize we are socially responsible for our emotions words, and actions.
Flag and forget people, flag and forget. Don't even try to disagree with certain people, whether you do it in a rude or a respectful manner: sometimes it's just not worth it.
I say lurk around the boards, notice how people respond and argue, and develop your own blacklist of people you just can't talk to. Then ignore all their posts and threads, just like you would avoid umpleasant people in real life.
It will probably take some small incidents, but after a while you will recognize who's a nice person, who is kind of stupid and who is a brilliant, analitic mind trapped inside the body of a massive t#~$.
Right now, my blacklist is composed by only 3-4 people. Which speaks wonders of this community, if you think about it.
Yeah, that's actually a pretty good rate. And good advice. As for me, I sometimes find my peace by totally avoiding certain threads. The important thing is to do what makes you happy (like participating in stimulating discussions), without doing what makes you loathe yourself later (like flaming).
Indeed. I find it shameful the way people have been bashing Pathfinder MMO. It's a great idea, even if it's a huge gamble, and people were pretty enthusiastic about it before the announcement. Paizo is sharp, bright and read the environment masterfully. Where they go, we have chosen to follow so far. We can choose to believe in them as they take this step too.
But discussing it with some people, you'd think they had their puppies kicked by Paizo for choosing to make an MMO. I gave up on discussing it because there was no tolerance in those threads. Ideas were distinctly unwelcome.
This. ^^
Then again, I'm pretty sure at least one person here is going to point the finger at me and say I had a part to play in all the bashing, but I honestly tried my best to give relatively constructive feedback when I wasn't busy debating things with others. Though sometimes it turned from a mere debate to a flamefest one time too many...
Indeed. I find it shameful the way people have been bashing Pathfinder MMO. It's a great idea, even if it's a huge gamble, and people were pretty enthusiastic about it before the announcement. Paizo is sharp, bright and read the environment masterfully. Where they go, we have chosen to follow so far. We can choose to believe in them as they take this step too.
But discussing it with some people, you'd think they had their puppies kicked by Paizo for choosing to make an MMO. I gave up on discussing it because there was no tolerance in those threads. Ideas were distinctly unwelcome.
This. ^^
Then again, I'm pretty sure at least one person here is going to point the finger at me and say I had a part to play in all the bashing, but I honestly tried my best to give relatively constructive feedback when I wasn't busy debating things with others. Though sometimes it turned from a mere debate to a flamefest one time too many...
/points finger at Icyshadow
YOU DID ALL THE BASHING!!! IT WAS YOU!!! I SEEN IT!!!
I respectfully pointed out that a particular witch hex in UM gave a resource that did nothing, how that wasn't iconic and probably lost something durring editing. I suggested a fix to make it more iconic and it got errata'd. That was really cool.
I wish more people would think about how they are dealing with real people with real person feelings when they are talking to the developers at Paizo.
I like how polite James Jacobs is with his language when talking about vitriolic, incendiary personal attacks and how immature they make their participants seem.
A lot of people say thinks like 'X is stupid and was written by some idiot,' or 'Paizo has to look at it from a cold, calculating humanoid(reptilian), Charisma–- 1% wallstreet perspective because they have to make money.' I see Paizo the same way that I've seen them since I was a subscriber to dragon magazine, a bunch of gamers who make a superior product and love what they do, but ultimately, their employees are people like me.
Not like the cold-blooded humunculi artificiers who crafted 4th edition by spending 1/2 the market price and 1/25th the base cost in experience points. (protip: if someone tries to respond to this by flaming and starting an edition war, don't take the bait.)
I know people who've felt wronged by Paizo back in the Playtest days, and while I am equally against edition war threads, I do want to say that not everyone shares that view on the staff. James Jacobs is a nice guy in my opinion, but Sean K. Reynolds still rubs me (and some other people) the wrong way for good reasons. Then again, I'm not going to dwell on that any deeper since it will pretty surely turn into a flamefest.
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I know people who've felt wronged by Paizo back in the Playtest days, and while I am equally against edition war threads, I do want to say that not everyone shares that view on the staff. James Jacobs is a nice guy in my opinion, but Sean K. Reynolds still rubs me (and some other people) the wrong way for good reasons. Then again, I'm not going to dwell on that any deeper since it will pretty surely turn into a flamefest.
Wronged by Paizo? Pray tell, explain.
Let's just say it involved reports about game inbalance found in the playtests being ignored in favor of "did you kids have fun" style playtesting that kinda wrecked the game balance? There's a reason why there were debates about the Rogue and Monk being too weak a few months back. Now, shall we get back to the topic at hand before someone explodes with rage? :)
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Let's just say it involved reports about errors found in the playtests being ignored in favor of "did you kids have fun" style playtesting that kinda wrecked the game balance? There's a reason why there were debates about the Rogue and Monk being too weak a few months back. Now, shall we get back to the topic at hand before someone explodes with rage? :)
No. You don't get away with drive-by so easily.
I think I know who you are referencing. I think we're much better without them around here, and I don't care about their opinions as long as they use the wrong orifice to articulate them.
James Jacobs is a nice guy in my opinion, but Sean K. Reynolds still rubs me (and some other people) the wrong way for good reasons. Then again, I'm not going to dwell on that any deeper since it will pretty surely turn into a flamefest.
SKR is actually the one who added some parts of my idea to the hex errata. You just have to not point things out the way Raving Dork does.
Pen and Paper game players tend to turtle and get defensive when confronted with hordes of fire and bile spewing shield chewing barbarian raging angry posters.
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Let's just say it involved reports about game inbalance found in the playtests being ignored in favor of "did you kids have fun" style playtesting that kinda wrecked the game balance? There's a reason why there were debates about the Rogue and Monk being too weak a few months back. Now, shall we get back to the topic at hand before someone explodes with rage? :)
That is, and I can't emphasize this enough, not the same as being "wronged by Paizo". That's just an example of the powers that be using a different set of criteria to make their final decision. The users who spun that into being "wronged by Paizo" pretty much demonstrated their lack of maturity.
Let's just say it involved reports about game inbalance found in the playtests being ignored in favor of "did you kids have fun" style playtesting that kinda wrecked the game balance? There's a reason why there were debates about the Rogue and Monk being too weak a few months back. Now, shall we get back to the topic at hand before someone explodes with rage? :)
NO
WE MUST DISCUSS THIS NOWNow I don't think I've seen that post, but I must say that I kinda agree with his vision of the game. Fun >>>>> Balance.
But that doesn't mean that ignoring a viewpoint in favour of another makes you rude and offensive, which is the topic we are discussing.
Did Sean K tell "look, the important thing is that you had fun" or "shut up about the balance and start having fun you morons"? It makes a world of difference.
Well, I tried to keep this civil and instead YOU guys decide to jump (though at least Pixel is being polite about it). You are already biased against my pals from the start, so I might as well just be quiet and not feed you any more than I already have. The only point I am going to throw is this: "Try having fun when there is no balance and when your character is nothing more than dead weight to your allies by the end". And from what I saw, Pixel, it was more of the latter being said and people who did number crunching getting kicked out all of a sudden.
Also, "to each his own". Even though I could houserule the bad stuff, it doesn't mean it wasn't originally there.
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Well, I tried to keep this civil and instead YOU guys decide to jump (though at least Pixel is being polite about it). You are already biased against my pals from the start, so I might as well just be quiet and not feed you any more than I already have. The only point I am going to throw is this: "Try having fun when there is no balance and when your character is nothing more than dead weight by the end."
Also, "to each his own". Even though I could houserule the bad stuff, it doesn't mean it wasn't originall there.
It's you who started with snide remarks and used the term "wronged". Please, don't act like a victim here. Drive-by flamebaits are old, tried, and most of use have developed the ability to spot them at a long distance.
And you do continue, using the old "I think X but let's not discuss it here" routine. It's a discussion forum, so either your post is open to discussion, or you don't post it, simple.
And if you consider these people your "pals", it does rise a warning flag or two. The problem with them was not their opinions, but their manner of presenting them. If you consider such manner normal, I'd be very careful around here.
I find it funny how you accuse me of flame-baiting, and then start your own troll-fest, Gorbacz. I'm sorry if I had fun having one of those people as DM, but at least she could run a campaign where I could play the class-race combo I wanted without always falling behind in either skill checks, combat or RPing in and of itself. In other words, I could PLAY MY CHARACTER without needing to optimize.
Well, I tried to keep this civil and instead YOU guys decide to jump (though at least Pixel is being polite about it). You are already biased against my pals from the start, so I might as well just be quiet and not feed you any more than I already have. The only point I am going to throw is this: "Try having fun when there is no balance and when your character is nothing more than dead weight to your allies by the end."
Also, "to each his own". Even though I could houserule the bad stuff, it doesn't mean it wasn't originall there.
Well, you just can't point out that one of the main developers rubbed you the wrong way and expect us to not be curious about it.
But let's not focus on that. I think that many disagreement about the game and playtest are mainly caused by our personal preferences and different expectations. That doesn't mean that we couldn't get along and disagree politely. The only thing I really wanted to know was whether Sean K was rude to you or not when you two were arguing, but I understand if you don't want to put more fuel on the fire.
Well, the disagreements on playstyle is enough (it happens all the time), but when a part of the community at the playtest times were ignored or just dismissed in favor of another group, I can understand why they're still somewhat sore about it. I had no part in it myself, but I am trying to see both sides of the issue. Lastly, the people I speak of are not as bad as Gorbacz implies once you actually get to know them.
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Well, the disagreements on playstyle is enough (it happens all the time), but when a part of the community at the playtest times were ignored or just dismissed, I can understand why they're still somewhat sore about it. I had no part in it myself, but I am trying to see both sides of the issue.
The problem is that you don't see the "don't be a jerk" side of the issue. If you enjoy people defecating on you while presenting their opinion - fine, but don't expect most of us to share that view.
There are jerks on both sides. This is the internet, after all. And did you completely ignore the part where I actually pointed out that they had a reason to be somewhat annoyed by the treatment they received? Also, I take the more caustic remarks they throw as humor, which it seems to be turning to the more you read on. Then again, you're seething with so much hate for them that I wouldn't be surprised if you said that you're blind to it.
When I told those guys of my problems with DMing my Pathfinder campaign once, I'm glad they were at least honest about where I had failed and why. Sure, they were incredibly rude about it, but I got to hear what I needed to hear instead of what I wanted to hear.
Well, the disagreements on playstyle is enough (it happens all the time), but when a part of the community at the playtest times were ignored or just dismissed in favor of another group, I can understand why they're still somewhat sore about it. I had no part in it myself, but I am trying to see both sides of the issue, and they're not as bad as Gorbacz implies once you actually get to know them.
But I bet they weren't the only playtesters involved either. When you say that their experience was ignored and dismissed, you are probably forgetting other experiences that were considered and taken into account instead. My or your or somebody else's opinions about the game are not the only ones. The developers can't listen to everybody, and cannot accomodate every choice or playstyle.
The fact that they are actually listening to at least someone, and that the playtest is open, unlike most gaming companies, is something that I'm happy about, in my opinion at least.
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There are jerks on both sides. This is the internet, after all. And did you completely ignore the part where I actually pointed out that they had a reason to be somewhat annoyed by the treatment they received? Also, I take the more caustic remarks they throw as humor, which it seems to be turning to the more you read on. Then again, you're seething with so much hate for them that I wouldn't be surprised if you said that you're blind to it.
When I told of my problems with DMing my Pathfinder campaign once, I'm glad they were at least honest about where I had failed and why. Sure, they were incredibly rude about it, but I'm fine with brutal honesty with a few silly remarks.
If you're fine with brutal honesty with a few silly remarks, why do you consider me "trolling" and "seething with hate"? I'm just brutally honest with a few silly remarks.
The reason why your remarks are obviously of the troll and flame varieties are because honesty requires facts (there are no facts involved with what you are saying) and because you are simply attacking a group of people you disagree with instead of speaking of actual topics where there is only a "yes or no/right or wrong" answer.
If the afformentioned issue is the one that comes to mind some people were gonna feel ignored until it got removed. If not then its nothing to cry over. I still a potentionally good class got hosed because of the play test.
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The reason why your remarks are obviously of the troll and flame varieties are because honesty requires facts (there are no facts involved with what you are saying) and because you are simply attacking a group of people you disagree with instead of speaking of actual topics where there is only a "yes or no/right or wrong" answer.
The only relevant fact is that they were removed for violating the "don't be a jerk" rule. Repeatedly.
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This thread went well.
This thread went well.
Indeed it did. I also wonder what makes Gorbacz so hostile towards those people I speak of. Sure, they're rude (not all of them are, actually), but they still made good points while they were here.
General consensus says no.
I am continually surprised by the emotions people invest in gaming companies and their products.
Sadly, this conversation did indeed proceed as expected. :(
It tends to happen. Gorbacz just loves to attack me whenever I happen to mention those people I speak of. His vehement hatred of them drove this thread downhill, and if I weren't here, it wouldn't have happened. So, are you going to blame me for hanging around these forums, or are you going to rightfully blame him for latching on to a few words and inciting this whole argument?
I am continually surprised by the emotions people invest in gaming companies and their products.
Sadly, this conversation did indeed proceed as expected. :(
I'm not seeing anything that bad in this conversation to be honest. RPG gamers are actually more educated and polite than the average person. And even the dreaded Edition Wars were nothing compared to the still raging Console Wars between videogamers. If you want to see "a surprising amount of emotion" on display, take a look at a random videogame board.
It tends to happen. Gorbacz just loves to attack me whenever I happen to mention those people I speak of. His vehement hatred of them drove this thread downhill, and if I weren't here, it wouldn't have happened.
Well, maybe you just should have ignored Gorbacz's post. Is not that difficult.
Icyshadow: I'm not going to blame either of you. I'm going to flag any post I think is "too far" and go back to reading about RPGs.
My comments in this thread are not meant to single out anyone in particular. I just found it ironic, given the OP.
It's alright, I won't hold that against you. I mean, why the hell would I do that? :)
I just wish people like Gorbacz and the guys I speak of could meet eye-to-eye, without daggers being involved.
I'm not seeing anything that bad in this conversation to be honest. RPG gamers are actually more educated and polite than the average person. And even the dreaded Edition Wars were nothing compared to the still raging Console Wars between videogamers. If you want to see "a surprising amount of emotion" on display, take a look at a random videogame board.I am continually surprised by the emotions people invest in gaming companies and their products.
Sadly, this conversation did indeed proceed as expected. :(
I don't really regard "those guys are worse" as much of a defense. I'm continually surprised by how much people care that others have different preferences. I also don't think it's particularly bad (I make a point of flagging and not responding to the truly bad posts). I do think it's kind of sad though - I get much more out of discussion with people who disagree with me. It's unfortunate that disagreements about preferences so often lead into baseless speculation about the motives or talents of various RPG professionals.
Well, the disagreements on playstyle is enough (it happens all the time), but when a part of the community at the playtest times were ignored or just dismissed in favor of another group, I can understand why they're still somewhat sore about it. I had no part in it myself, but I am trying to see both sides of the issue. Lastly, the people I speak of are not as bad as Gorbacz implies once you actually get to know them.
It doesn't matter if these people are nice in person or in some threads. If they're exhibiting bad posting behavior because their ideas and opinions were not the ones endorsed by the publishers, that's their fault and we shouldn't tolerate it.
They may be disappointed, but they haven't been wronged by the decisions of Paizo designers. How they deal with their disappointment is a mark of their level of maturity. It's perfectly fine if they're critical of the game and the decisions made, but it's not fine if they're rude and obnoxious about it here. Such behavior may be common on the Internet, but that doesn't make it an acceptable standard of behavior.
I thought this was about the "I hate Asian theme, so stop making Tian products" whine.
Well, the disagreements on playstyle is enough (it happens all the time), but when a part of the community at the playtest times were ignored or just dismissed in favor of another group, I can understand why they're still somewhat sore about it. I had no part in it myself, but I am trying to see both sides of the issue. Lastly, the people I speak of are not as bad as Gorbacz implies once you actually get to know them.It doesn't matter if these people are nice in person or in some threads. If they're exhibiting bad posting behavior because their ideas and opinions were not the ones endorsed by the publishers, that's their fault and we shouldn't tolerate it.
They may be disappointed, but they haven't been wronged by the decisions of Paizo designers. How they deal with their disappointment is a mark of their level of maturity. It's perfectly fine if they're critical of the game and the decisions made, but it's not fine if they're rude and obnoxious about it here. Such behavior may be common on the Internet, but that doesn't make it an acceptable standard of behavior.
I actually read some of their old posts in the archives, and I didn't see this rudeness everyone speaks of in at least two guy's posts (one of them actually mentioned being trolled quite often around here without warning). So what you guys see is sort of beyond me anyway despite the fact that I've had some of the most caustic of posts thrown at me by them and also have been able to befriend a few of them as well. Anyway, they've already been kicked out and I doubt they want to come back since the welcome would definitely be a warm one judging from how you and Gorbacz are talking about them. No offense, of course.
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I actually read some of their old posts in the archives, and I didn't see this rudeness everyone speaks of in at least one guy's posts. So what you guys see is sort of beyond me anyway despite the fact that I've had the most caustic of posts thrown at me by them and also have been able to befriend a few of them as well.Well, the disagreements on playstyle is enough (it happens all the time), but when a part of the community at the playtest times were ignored or just dismissed in favor of another group, I can understand why they're still somewhat sore about it. I had no part in it myself, but I am trying to see both sides of the issue. Lastly, the people I speak of are not as bad as Gorbacz implies once you actually get to know them.It doesn't matter if these people are nice in person or in some threads. If they're exhibiting bad posting behavior because their ideas and opinions were not the ones endorsed by the publishers, that's their fault and we shouldn't tolerate it.
They may be disappointed, but they haven't been wronged by the decisions of Paizo designers. How they deal with their disappointment is a mark of their level of maturity. It's perfectly fine if they're critical of the game and the decisions made, but it's not fine if they're rude and obnoxious about it here. Such behavior may be common on the Internet, but that doesn't make it an acceptable standard of behavior.
The second sentence of your post explains the first one. :)
That being pals with them is possible if you put some effort into getting to know them better?
I think that actually applies to a lot of people.