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This is actually less for advice than as a workspace for me to "think out loud" about this concept/build. Input is still welcome, though. :)
(For reference, this is for PFS.)
Version1
Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms: Elven Curve Blade)
STR 10
DEX 17 (15+2)
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 14
CHA 10
01:Ranger1[Skirmisher,Urban,Guide][Ranger's Focus +2 1/day], Weapon Finesse
02:Ranger2[Combat Style:2HW][Power Attack]
03:Barbarian1[Urban][Crowd Control][Controlled Rage], Extra Rage
04:Ranger3[Favored Community][Trapfinding][BAB+4][DEX+1=18]
Need Agile weapon for DEX to damage.
Version2
Half-Elf (Adaptability: Skill Focus[Sense Motive])
STR 17 (15+2)
DEX 14
CON 15
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 07
[Trait for +1 Sense Motive and class skill]
01:Ranger1[Skirmisher,Urban,Guide][Ranger's Focus +2 1/day], Improved Unarmed Strike
02:Ranger2[Combat Style:2HW][Power Attack]
03:Ranger3[Favored Community][Trapfinding], Snake Style
04:Ranger4[Ranger's Focus +2 2/day][BAB+4][STR+1=18]
Doesn't get Acrobatics as class skill.
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So many of these finese builds deny the need for Str to actually adventure.
The lightest REALISTIC load for light armour I've seen for anyone hoping to use armour is 12 Str... and thats with a Masterwork Pack that adds 1 to str for carrying purposes, with an eye to having something in the way off a missile weapon OTHER than a sling, and carrying essentials like, you know, food and water. Tinderbox, whetstone, torches or lanterns etc all take space. Forget about rope...
Hm, good point, I'd better do some math:
STR 10 = 33lb light load
Chain shirt = 25lbs (yikes)
ElvCurveBlade = 7lbs (crap, already at 32lbs)
But wait! To make room for DEX-rage to improve AC, I was gonna get mithral armor:
Mithral CShirt = 12.5lbs
ElvCurveBlade = 7lbs
Remaining = 13.5lbs
So I'd definitely have to watch what I carry. But there's enough room for a backpack, silk rope, and some trail rations, with room to spare. If I go on a longer mission, I might have to get someone to help carry traveling gear, but otherwise I should be fine.
Thanks for the heads-up, though. I didn't even think about that! Kind of makes me lean toward the STR version....
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you should have atlas a 13 str for power attack. that'll up your damage output to decent levels
Once I get a +1 agile elven curve blade at around level 5, the damage (with controlled rage and power attack) will be 1d10+13/18-20/x2. That seems decent, right? ;)
I'm not sure how viable it would be for adventuring (meaning if it'd survive long enough to be worth it), but a donkey only costs 8gp and a cart or pack saddle are only an extra 15gp.
5cp a day for feed (keep 10 days worth in a barrel in the cart), and you don't need to worry over much about encumberance until you go into a place the donkey can't.
Again - I'm not sure if that'd be viable, but it's an option for a low-strength character that doesn't require too much bookkeeping.
I'd recommend Google Docs.
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Alright, the Finesse version is seeming to have some trouble - encumbrance, GP cost (need mithral armor and a +2 equivalent weapon to really get online). Also, the controlled rage seems redundant in communicating the "mojo" element when I've already got Ranger's Focus.
The Snake Style version is smoother and cheaper, but Snake Style itself is not as flavorfully communicative as I would have liked and is therefore not worth the feats and other hurdles.
So here's a version that uses Ranger's Focus and Skirmisher Tricks for the "mojo" element, and uses other means to communicate the "sage" element.
Version3
Half-Elf [Dual-Minded]
Monoclassed Ranger[Urban,Guide,Skirmisher]
STR 17 (15+2)
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 12
[Traits for +1/class for Diplomacy and Sense Motive]
01:Ranger1[Ranger's Focus +2, 1/day], Toughness
02:Ranger2[Combat Style:2HW][Power Attack]
03:Ranger3[Favored Community][Trapfinding], Furious Focus
04:Ranger4[Ranger's Focus +2 2/day][BAB+4][STR+1=18]
05:Ranger5[Ranger's Focus +4 2/day][3/day Hunter's Trick: Skill Sage], FEAT
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The feat "Breadth of Experience" is a perfect flavor fit for this guy. So I'm going to see if I can do this with a full-blooded Elf...
Version4
Elf
Monoclassed Ranger[Urban,Guide,Skirmisher]
STR 17
DEX 14 (12+2)
CON 12 (14-2)
INT 10 (08+2)
WIS 12
CHA 10
[Traits for +1/class for Diplomacy and Sense Motive]
01:Ranger1[Ranger's Focus +2, 1/day], Breadth of Experience
02:Ranger2[Combat Style:2HW][Power Attack]
03:Ranger3[Favored Community][Trapfinding], Furious Focus
04:Ranger4[Ranger's Focus +2 2/day][BAB+4][STR+1=18]
05:Ranger5[Ranger's Focus +4 2/day][3/day Hunter's Trick: Skill Sage], FEAT
Alternatively, I could drop STR to 16 and get a STR belt later... That would let me bring CON up... Hm...
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If you're going to be an urban ranger, why not be an urban barbarian too -- but, he's the cool trick: do not use Controlled Rage, but ordinary rage instead? (So, STR to 21, and help in the hit-point and will-save dept.) Bonus: Diplomacy as a class skill saves a trait (you also get Kn:Local, which is fairly commonly asked for in PFS).
Rationale for barb when going strength route: if you're going to 2hPA, don't mess around. Your AC will bite compared to a S&B fighter, so you really have to dish it out to compete with Tier 6+ BBEMs who'll maul you bad on a full-attack.
Deal-breaker fly-in-the-oinment: Raging Vitality is pretty much unattainable in an elf who doesn't want to spend 10 build points minimum on CON. No RV equals baaad juju headed your way some time or other.
....I'm thinking you had the better idea earlier on with the curve-sword, who just needs a little help to get by until Agile (you can make a weapon mithral, btw; shaving 3.5lbs off that sword). And, would it really kill you to move with medium encumbrance for awhile until you pick up a haversack?
Last I checked, monsters showed little inhibition to engagement in PFS at low level, so movement is generally a non-issue 95% of the time.
= = = = = =
Half-elf (or elf)
STR:14
DEX+18
CON:14 (or 12 elf)
INT:12 (or 14 elf)
WIS:12
CHA:07 (hey: you're a ranger; you're supposed to be dour and gloomy)
traits: Berserker of the Society (rage+3r/d), Armor Expert
01 Barb1 [urban],[elven curve blade proficiency], Extra Rage
02 fight1 [Cad], Weapon Finesse
03 rang1 [urban], Quick Draw
04 rang2 [archery][Rapid Shot], DEX>19
05 barb2 [Uncanny Dodge][Reckless Abandon+1]
06 rang3 or fight2 (Deadly Aim) ...etc.
"Why, Hello, there, Mr. Switch-Hitter! Would you like to swap wiv-, er, weapons?"
* STR at 14 means Power Attack is available without requiring ranger to avoid prerequisites, so take archery[Rapid Shot] instead.
* Cad gives you Escape Artist in a BAB+1 class.
* 1 rank +3/Class(Barb[Urban]) in Diplomacy overrides that CHA:07 right nicely.
The general idea is to stick to archery until you actually have the Agile sword -- and you'll dish out the damage quite nicely doing so. Delay fighter level until 5th or even barb level until 3rd if you'd really like to front-load archery.
Appearance: dress like a cleric, and bad guys might leave your will save alone.
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1. Medium encumbrance by weight gives you max DEX to AC of +3, regardless of what armor you're wearing. Kind of an issue.
2. You advocate 14 STR for PA, but don't actually include PA in the build?
3. Why is Escape Artist worth a level dip?
4. I already have three low-CHA-but-positive-Diplomacy-mod characters. I'd like to try one who's actually personable for a change, especially if I'm going for the kindly old sage vibe. Which I'd kind of like to. So the more I look at it, the more I really want at least a 10 CHA.
5. Related to the concept nugget in #4, I'd really like to explore the possibility of the Breadth of Knowledge feat.
Build version 5 to follow.
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Version5
Elf
STR 14
DEX 18 (16+2)
CON 12 (14-2)
INT 12 (10+2)
WIS 10
CHA 10
Traits: Something for +1 Will (or maybe Skeptic, for the "other half" of my racial save bonus), and that one you listed for extra rage rounds (where's that from, anyway? And is it faction-specific?)
01:Fighter1[Tactician], Breadth of Experience
02:Fighter2[Tactician][Tactical Awareness +1][Weapon Finesse](1d10+3)
03:Barbarian1[Urban][Crowd Control][Controlled Rage], Power Attack (1d10+6)
04:Barbarian2[Urban][Uncanny Dodge][Rage Power:Superstition?](1d10+9)
05:Barbarian3[Urban][Trap Sense], Iron Will or Furious Focus?
With 14 STR and 2hPA, adding Agile to the Curve Blade is less of a necessity and more of a bonus. Which is nice. And it makes my carrying capacity 58lbs for a light load. Which is also nice.
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1. Medium encumbrance by weight gives you max DEX to AC of +3, regardless of what armor you're wearing. Kind of an issue.Got me there (I've never played medium-load character before, unless it was a dwarf fighter for whom DEX 16 is a dream).
2. You advocate 14 STR for PA, but don't actually include PA in the build?The idea there was that you wouldn't be using the sword that much until you had Agile on it. Anybody not near you and not in melee is a Rapid Shot target.
3. Why is Escape Artist worth a level dip?It's not; but, unless your heart is set on Ranger spells as fast as you can get 'em without paying, then fighter is worth a dip for feats...and why not CAD if you don't need medium armor and do like extra skill points?
4. I already have three low-CHA-but-positive-Diplomacy-mod characters. I'd like to try one who's actually personable for a change,Well, <chuckle>, a CHA10 or 12 isn't that far toward being personable from 07. You're basically eating a quarter to a third of your build points to elevate a stat you're simply not going to use much, if at all. (It'd be one thing if you were a rogue and UMDing and making feints, but as a ranger archetype who forfeits Handle Animal, you'll barely touch it.)
especially if I'm going for the kindly old sage vibe. Which I'd kind of like to. So the more I look at it, the more I really want at least a 10 CHA.
5. Related to the concept nugget in #4, I'd really like to explore the possibility of the Breadth of Knowledge feat.
So make a bard. -- Then you can be a kindly old likeable sage who actually puts that CHA to use. (Such a bard will also be a change of pace from those annoying lecherous simpering put-down type Taldoran bards we here so much about but seem to be refreshingly free of at least in the local vacinity.)
Works well with the Dervish thing you were interested in awhile ago.
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5. Related to the concept nugget in #4, I'd really like to explore the possibility of the Breadth of Knowledge feat.So make a bard. -- Then you can be a kindly old likeable sage who actually puts that CHA to use.
Works well with the Dervish thing you were interested in awhile ago.
Well, OK; maybe not with the dervish thing, at least not as a full-on melee fighter who forfeits any party utility.
elf, played against bonuses, but works alright....
STR:15 (bump 4th)
DEX+14
CON-10
INT+14
WIS:12
CHA:14 (bump 8th, 12th)
Traits: Maestro of the Society, Threatening Defender
01 fight1 Toughness, Breadth of Experience
02 bard1
02 fight2 Combat Expertise, Power Attack
04 bard2 (all bard hereon)
....go to town with your Elven sword...but have an Efficient Quiver full of javalins too. Good, ol' unsung javalins that are only 1pt less damaging that arrows, but cost thousands and thousands of gold less than a twinked bow.
-- And you actually have the skill points to make Breadth of Experience pay off in the long run.
(If you did him as your First Steps GM credit, he'd be 2nd level before you played him, so you'd get past the more boring fighter stuff at 1st.)
-- I recommend not taking a fighter archetype which forfeits Survival.)
In line with Mike's suggested build above, I would recommend the archivist archetype for bard in this case for the Naturalist class ability. Seems to fit with a thoughtful, perceptive sage-type guy.
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In line with Mike's suggested build above, I would recommend the archivist archetype for bard in this case for the Naturalist class ability. Seems to fit with a thoughtful, perceptive sage-type guy.
** spoiler omitted **
Hm.... I should probably just peruse the various bard archetypes in general. I haven't really looked at them too much.
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(Reconsidering last post's build; dislike Power Attack route, as forfeits AC resulting in monster-chow by mid-levels....
In line with Mike's suggested build above, I would recommend the archivist archetype for bard in this case for the Naturalist class ability.
Well, there's a better way to do it, and that's just to tuck in some ranger (and hopefully arrive at our grand-unification of old-charismatic-knowledge-skills-guy-who-doesn't-suck-in-combat concepts):
Old charismatic guy, Take 2:
human (Duh -- we're a bard! -- we don't need Breadth of Experience because all Knowledge skills are class!)
STR:12
DEX+16
CON:12
INT:14
WIS:12
CHA:14
Traits: Maestro of the Society, Threatening Defender
01 ranger1 (archtype WITH survival), Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
02 bard1 (regular old buff-the-party bard, because it gets the chicks for distinguished gentlemen with graying sides)
02 ranger2 [Rapid Shot], Dervish Dance
04 bard2 (all bard hereon)
...this, I think, is about ideal: You have archery, melee, spells, 9 skills/level, good AC, good saves, enough strength to carry your crap, no negatives and no "dead" build-points in unused stats. Disable Device and Fly are the only two skills that aren't class for you.
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INT:12
01 ranger1 (archtype WITH survival), Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
1. Why do I want CE?
2. CE requires 13 INT....this, I think, is about ideal: You have archery, melee, spells, 8 skills/level, good AC, good saves, an 18 primary at 4th, enough strength to carry your crap, no negatives and no "dead" build-points in unused stats.
When was archery a requirement?
And how did you make AC better by going with Dervish Dance instead of a 2H weapon? Neither one gets to use a shield.
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(Dammit; will you let me edit these buggers a couple times before pouncing? Jeesh; put that beast-totem down, boy...)
Dervish Dance increases your AC over Power Attack because you get to wear a buckler. With a +1 buckler and Combat Expertise, you're +1 attack (due to Threatening Defender) and +4 AC better than the Power Attacker at BAB4. Damage in melee is less, of course; but the object is to survive a battle of attrition versus a flying chimera with five attacks and a breath weapon at 5th level.
....and thus also archery (and it's a gimme in a DEX-based build as well).
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(Dammit; will you let me edit these buggers a couple times before pouncing? Jeesh; put that beast-totem down, boy...)
Bored at work; deal with it! ;)
Dervish Dance increases your AC over Power Attack because you get to wear a buckler.
A shield negates DD:
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
So no dice.
With a +1 buckler and Combat Expertise, you're +1 attack (due to Threatening Defender) and +4 AC better than the Power Attacker at BAB4. Damage in melee is less, of course; but the object is to survive a battle of attrition versus a flying chimera with five attacks and a breath weapon at 5th level.
"Threatening Defender"...? Found it in the SRD, but it's labeled as Fan Content. What's the source, and is it PFS-legal?
....and thus also archery (and it's a gimme in a DEX-based build as well).
I have no problem carrying a bow so that I'm not twiddling my thumbs when I can't reach the bad guy. But for this character, I don't plan on investing in it.
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i believe its the fact a buckler is held in your hand, but is strapped to the forearm. the hand is completely free, and doesn't invalidate dervish dance.
A shield negates DD:
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.So no dice.
Unless there's been some kind of developer clarification on that, I can't imagine any GM letting that fly. So until you link such a clarification, I'm going to go on the assumption (and honest belief) that the buckler is a no-go.
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The Jiggy I was reading yesterday was an ardent champion of the letter of the text in the rules.
There's a difference between being nitpicky with a formula and being nitpicky with wordcount-conserving sentence structure.
A buckler is neither a heavy nor light "shield",
But it IS a "shield". The feat says nothing of only heavy or light.
nor held "in your hand".
A light shield isn't held in your hand, either, as evidenced by the fact that you can carry other items with that hand at no penalty.
If you want to argue it further, feel free to make a rules thread, but you know as well as I do that NO local GM is gonna let that fly in PFS without a FAQ printout, so we might as well leave it out of this build.
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A light shield isn't held in your hand, either, as evidenced by the fact that you can carry other items with that hand at no penalty.
"You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it...."
A buckler is a different animal: it's completely on your forearm (i.e., not using the hand at all), permitting you to TWF, etc.
If you want to argue it further, feel free to make a rules thread, but you know as well as I do that NO local GM is gonna let that fly in PFS without a FAQ printout, so we might as well leave it out of this build.
Frankly I have no idea what local GMs allow, because I haven't gamed under many. The one I game under most has this strange notion that Smite numeric damage bonuses don't multiply on crits (which is one of a couple reasons why Burlap is on hiatus).
<shrug>
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Regarding the buckler issue, a few persons in that Rules thread raised some interesting points. (As usual, nobody from Paizo showed up. :-P)
(You could make a Dervish Dancer fighter who wears mithral full-plate (supports DEX 18 at 2nd), but he can't use a buckler?)
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Getting back on track, here's another variation, this one heavier on the Barbarian...ness...
Version6
Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms: Elven Curve Blade)
STR 14
DEX 16 (14+2)
CON 13
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 10
Traits: Berserker of the Society, something else (reactionary?)
01:Barbarian1[Urban][Crowd Control][Controlled Rage], Weapon Finesse
02:Fighter1[Tactician]
03:Barbarian2[Urban][Rage Power:Superstition][Uncanny Dodge], Power Attack
04:Fighter2[Tactician][Tactical Awareness +1][Bonus Feat:Furious Focus][CON+1=14]
05:Barbarian3[Urban][Trap Sense +1], FEAT
I'm not sure what from there, but it looks alright, eh? I can keep nabbing bonus feats from fighter if I want, or take some dips for other goodies (like skills/saves). I feel pretty decent about this one.
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At this point I don't know what you're really looking for. There's not much sage in the sage....
Q: Does elf (or half-elf) interest you for any reason other than scooping up proficiency in curve sword?
= = = = =
human
STR:15 (all bumps)
DEX:14
CON:12
INT:12
WIS+14
CHA:12
Traits: Dangerously Curious, Honored Fist of the Society
00 saves 01 02 02
01 fight1 03 02 02 [Unarmed][proficiency(monk+exotic)][Panther Style], Dodge, Mobility
02 monk1 05 04 04 [sohei][Devoted Guardian][Combat Reflexes]
03 fight2 06 04 04 Panther Claw, Panther Parry
04 monk2 07 05 05 [INIT+1][Evasion][Deflect Arrows], STR>16
05 monk3 07 05 05 Power Attack
06 monk4 08 06 06 {INIT+2][Ki Pool][Ki Weapon]
07 monk5 08 06 06 FEAT
08 monk6 09 07 07 [INIT+3][Weapon Training+1:(choose category)]
...at 1st, you can use a couple dozen weird weapons, several of which don't suck, and get a free retaliatory strike against someone AoO'ing you for movement through threatened squares.
...at 2nd, you are Flurrying with a temple sword in one hand and a kukri in the other.
...at 3rd, you run right through the enemy, daring them to takes opps against you (you have WIS bonus freebie retaliatory strikes which occur before the opp is resolved).
...4th is a boring level, but a good time to spend cash.
...5th is BAB4; time to 2hPA Flurry that temple sword and through the kukri away (your strength won't 1.5, but you still get 3xPA Flurrying a weapon in two hands).
...6th is free magic weapons and free extra attacks day.
...7th is just a feat.
...8th is the day your opponents dread: you have 15k saved up, and snarf Gloves of Dueling for +3/+3 on a massive assortment of weapons. [Monk] gives you the biggest group; [Polearms] gives you Nodachi (a 5' brace polearm with damage characteristics identical to an Elven Curve Sword) and Fauchard (an exotic reach/trip polearm also with d10/18-20x2) -- and you can Flurry with everything in the group.
Equipment: Gloves of Dueling, wands of Expeditious Retreat, Longstrider, others; Circlet of Persuasion to enhance CHA skills, Strength belt, Wisdom headband (eventually both belt and band will be Perfection +2 for all six stats).
(BTW, I recall you mentioning something awhile back regards a sash or some such odd item than you could place armor bonuses on -- what was it?)
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At this point I don't know what you're really looking for. There's not much sage in the sage....
Not as much sage, no... But that's not the central trope of this concept. It's a peripheral one, but simply having a 12+ WIS and a decent Sense Motive is sufficient for that element. Additional knowledgey things are a plus, but not required.
The other trope I'm going for is the seemingly-frail old man who suddenly "turns on" his mojo when the chips are down. The guy who surprises you with his combat competence. As such, the important element for this is that there be some component of his melee capability that he "turns on". It can't be "always on". For instance, simply having a high primary ability score is in the "always on" category, as are things like Weapon Focus, Favored Enemy, Flurry of Blows, etc. The "mojo mechanic" needs to be something that he chooses to activate. Like the Controlled Rage, the Guide Ranger's Focus, the Dawnflower Dervish's Battle Dance, etc. It needs to be clear not just that he can end you, but that he decides to end you. It's all about the focused intentionality. And bonus points if it doesn't involve increasing STR, as that's a bit more on the brutish side.
So in a way, he is the sage - his power is in his mind, in that he can bring forth a level of focus and determined skill that will win the day.
Q: Does elf (or half-elf) interest you for any reason other than scooping up proficiency in curve sword?
The elf is for the ECBlade, and for the possibility of Breadth of Knowledge, if I can find a build I like that has room for it (the issue being having both that and Weapon Finesse by level 2).
The half-elf is for the ECBlade, and/or simply being one of the best/most flexible races in the game. ;)
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Alright, here's an attempt at a non-BarbFinesse version that uses the thus-far-neglected Meteor Hammer:
Version7
Half-Elf [Dual-Minded]
Ranger[Urban,Skirmisher,Guide]
STR 16 (14+2)
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 11
Traits: Something for +1 Will, Something else
01:Ranger1[Ranger's Focus +2, 1/day], EWP:Meteor Hammer
02:Ranger2[Combat Style:TWF]
03:Bard1[DawnflowerDervish][Battle Dance +2], Extra Performance
04:Ranger3[Favored Community][Trapfinding][CHA+1=12]
05:Ranger4[Ranger's Focus +2 2/day], Power Attack
06:Ranger5[Ranger's Focus +4 2/day][3/day Hunter's Trick: Skill Sage]
07:Ranger6[Combat Style:ITWF][Other Stuff], Furious Focus
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The other trope I'm going for is the seemingly-frail old man who suddenly "turns on" his mojo when the chips are down. The guy who surprises you with his combat competence. As such, the important element for this is that there be some component of his melee capability that he "turns on". It can't be "always on". For instance, simply having a high primary ability score is in the "always on" category, as are things like Weapon Focus, Favored Enemy, Flurry of Blows, etc. The "mojo mechanic" needs to be something that he chooses to activate. Like the Controlled Rage, the Guide Ranger's Focus, the Dawnflower Dervish's Battle Dance, etc. It needs to be clear not just that he can end you, but that he decides to end you. It's all about the focused intentionality. And bonus points if it doesn't involve increasing STR, as that's a bit more on the brutish side.
Hmmm....
human
STR:12 or 07
DEX+17 or 19
CON:12
INT:14
WIS:12
CHA:12
traits: Berserker of the Society, Maestro of the Society
00 saves 01 03 01
01 barb1 03 03 01 [urban] Extra Rage, Weapon Finesse
02 bard1 03 05 03 [dawnflower][Battle Dance+2][Dervish Dance], 1st
03 fight1 05 06 03 [unarmed][Dragon Style], Extra Performance
04 fight2 06 06 03 DEX>18, Two Weapon Fighting
Party role at-first-glance: useless bard who won't buff
What he is in actuality: TWF beat-stick who puts fighters to shame
The way it works: at 4th (assuming perfect prestige acquisition), buy an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. Else a mod later.
Mojo #1: Controlled rage (which nobody notices because you're not growling like a half-orc)
Mojo #2: Battle Dance to turn that DEX into the damage
Mojo #3: Then catch 'em with a left hook, and knock their lights out.
* Rage and Perform(Battle Dance) both for 14r/day (+2/lvl with additional levels of bard or barbarian respectively).
05 bard2 06 07 04 [Versatile Performance(Oratory:Diplomacy/Sense Motive], Combat Expertise
06 barb2 07 07 04 [Uncanny Dodge][Reckless Abandon+2]
* BAB4 good time for Combat Expertise; protect those scrawny old man hitpoints.
* Diplomacy and Sense Motive now default to Perform:Oratory (which is also pulling weight at a day-job check), so don't put any ranks in those two and keep Oratory maxed.
07 bard3 07 07 04 [Inspire Competence], Weapon Focus:Scimitar
08 bard4 07 08 05 CHA>13, 2nd
* WF when we pick up iterative attacks.
* 2nd level bard spells now (free lesser restro).
09 bard5 07 08 05 [Battle Dance+4][Spinning Spellcaster], Improved Initiative
10 bard6 08 09 06 [Suggestion][Versatile Performance(Dance:Acrobatics/Fly)
11 bard7 08 09 06 3rd, Critical Focus
12 bard8 08 10 07 CHA>14, [Meditative Whirl]
Weapon: +1/Agile/Furious/Keen adamantine scimitar
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I'm glad to see I've finally articulated my goal. :)
I think at this point, it would be helpful to me if I reviewed what I've learned so far:
1. Urban Barbarian is cool for the DEXrage, but that's about it.
2. DEXrage is a great Mojo, but only if I have an Agile weapon (8k gold) or am Dervish Dancing (potential issues with AC, depending on how the buckler issue turns out).
3. I think relying largely on an Agile weapon is too expensive for my taste. I want a build that doesn't need it.
4. I don't like Dervish Dance unless I can use a buckler, and for now I'm not willing to assume I can. So barring future clarification, Dervish Dance is out of the running.
5. With Agile and Dervish Dance out, so is Urban Barbarian.
6. The triple-archetype ranger I've been looking at feels really good; has a moderate Mojo, has skills, full-BAB, two good saves, and so forth.
7. The +2 battle dance of the Dawnflower Dervish might be worth a dip all on its own, even without using Dervish Dance.
Note to self:
Future builds don't employ Dervish Dance or use Urban Barbarian.
Version8 to follow.
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Version8
Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms: Tekko-Kagi)
STR 16 (14+2)
DEX 16
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 10
Traits: Maestro of the Society, something for +1 Will
01:Ranger1[Urban,Skirmisher,Guide][Ranger's Focus +2 1/day], Two-Weapon Fighting
02:Ranger2[Combat Style TWF:Double Slice]
03:Bard1[DawnflowerDervish][Battle Dance +2], Extra Performance
04:Ranger from here on out
So basically, a Ranger[Guide,Skirmisher,Urban] who takes a one-level dip for the +2 battle dance. I could potentially delay the dip until 4 or 5, making sure I have the cash for a mithral breastplate (since battle dance only works in light armor), or just make do with a chain shirt in the meantime.
Tekko-kagi: it's a 1d3 light piercing weapon with some very interesting abilities. For one thing, it can be used defensively as a buckler, so any round that I don't full-attack, I've got +1 AC. Furthermore, it can disarm bladed weapons without provoking an AoO and gets a +2 in the attempt. That's right: against swords and the like, EWP:Tekko-kagi is like Improved Disarm without the prerequisites! (Also, getting a mithral one is cheaper than a regular masterwork one.)
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Aside from 12hp at 1st, you also get Acrobatics and Perception as class.I'm glad to see I've finally articulated my goal. :)
I think at this point, it would be helpful to me if I reviewed what I've learned so far:
1. Urban Barbarian is cool for the DEXrage, but that's about it.
2. DEXrage is a great Mojo, but only if I have an Agile weapon (8k gold) or am Dervish Dancing (potential issues with AC, depending on how the buckler issue turns out).Assuming you never buy higher than a +2 buckler, the most it'll matter is 3AC. If you TWF with an unarmed strike, it's a moot point. If you wear the buckler on the scimitar arm, the AC is always there when you're being ambushed or for any situation in which you're not attacking.
3. I think relying largely on an Agile weapon is too expensive for my taste. I want a build that doesn't need it.
Reasonable objection. (Waiting until 4th to spend 5k is a maddeningly long ordeal.)
4. I don't like Dervish Dance unless I can use a buckler, and for now I'm not willing to assume I can.
<perplexed> ...you liked it before when you assumed you couldn't. :-)
= = = =
Tekko ...although the text of this weapon mentions using it defensively like a buckler, it doesn't have a listed AC bonus and doesn't appear on the Shields table; you also don't know whether or not it needs to be "double"-enchanted to receive bonuses to both weapon attacks and AC, or whether "like a buckler" means it's subject to whatever limitations a buckler is (if any) for the purposes of Dervish Dance.
(And: Word on "maneuver" weapons: well in excess of half of the PFS encounters so far in year 3 mods involve opponents without manufactured weapons -- so if you're expecting a ton of use out of disarm/sunder, you may be disappointed.)
Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms: Tekko-Kagi)
STR 16 (14+2)
DEX 1601:Ranger1[Urban,Skirmisher,Guide][Ranger's Focus +2 1/day], Two-Weapon Fighting
02:Ranger2[Combat Style TWF:Double Slice]
03:Bard1[DawnflowerDervish][Battle Dance +2], Extra Performance
04:Ranger from here on out
1) You have TWF and get Dervish Dance from dawnflower, by no apparent mechanism for using an unarmed strike on the off-hand, or Quick Draw for getting a weapon into it after using Dervish Dance to deliver a strike.
2) I'm worried that you'll quickly tire of the concept; with the dawnflower dip it'll be 6th level before you get a second ranger's focus, meaning that most of your "mojo" is reserved for a single opponent in one encounter for half the play-time of the character.
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 10
Your melee fighter has barely more hitpoints than the average CON14 wizard with Toughness (at 3rd level you have 24HP; the wizard has 27HP+False Life). (I note the continued reticence in dumping scores you don't use -- I'm not a fan of INT7/CHA7 builds, but INT10/CHA10 is arguably worse if you're building a BBEM's melee punching-bag who doesn't use either stat.)
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Aside from 12hp at 1st, you also get Acrobatics and Perception as class.
Fair point. But there are traits for Perception as class, and it's not the end of the world if I miss Acro. 12HP is something, I confess. But it's still mainly for the DEXrage, which is expensive to make work. And I'm vetoing STRrage on flavor grounds.
4. I don't like Dervish Dance unless I can use a buckler, and for now I'm not willing to assume I can.<perplexed> ...you liked it before when you assumed you couldn't.
I looked into it when I assumed I couldn't. Then I decided I didn't like how low my AC would be. That's kind of the point of all these hypothetical builds; to figure out what I like. :D
Tekko ...although the text of this weapon mentions using it defensively like a buckler, it doesn't have a listed AC bonus and doesn't appear on the Shields table; you also don't know whether or not it needs to be "double"-enchanted to receive bonuses to both weapon attacks and AC, or whether "like a buckler" means it's subject to whatever limitations a buckler is (if any) for the purposes of Dervish Dance.
It doesn't have a listed AC bonus, but "as a buckler" can't mean anything but +1 AC. I wasn't planning on enchanting it; just having it there for 1 AC anytime I'm being ambushed or otherwise not full-attacking. Also be aware that the build with the tekko-kagi wasn't going to be employing Dervish Dance.
Word on "maneuver" weapons: well in excess of half of the PFS encounters so far in year 3 mods involve opponents without manufactured weapons -- so if you're expecting a ton of use out of disarm/sunder, you may be disappointed.
Just a fun little extra is all. Not planning on relying on it.
1) You have TWF and get Dervish Dance from dawnflower, by no apparent mechanism for using an unarmed strike on the off-hand, or Quick Draw for getting a weapon into it after using Dervish Dance to deliver a strike.
This build wasn't planning on employing Dervish Dance; the dip is purely for Battle Dance. The idea is that (after the first round, where I need a move action to activate) a +2 to hit and damage goes a lot farther when you have 2 attacks/round.
Basically, this version grew out of the realization that all the "mojo" mechanics I've been looking at are static bonuses, and those get better the more attacks you have. But then I had the same low-AC issue that I didn't like with the 2H ElfBlade guy, so I got the idea to use a tekko-kagi: at any given moment I'm either TWFing to double up on my damage bonuses, or I've got an extra point of AC.
2) I'm worried that you'll quickly tire of the concept; with the dawnflower dip it'll be 6th level before you get a second ranger's focus, meaning that most of your "mojo" is reserved for a single opponent in one encounter for half the play-time of the character.
This bit perplexes me. Prior to the dip, I've only got "mojo" against one enemy per day. The dip gives me Battle Dance (which works regardless of whether I use Dervish Dance or not) so that I can (with the trait and Extra Performance) have "mojo" against all enemies for 13 rounds/day. So I'm not sure what you're talking about here.
Your melee fighter has barely more hitpoints than the average CON14 wizard with Toughness (at 3rd level you have 24HP; the wizard has 27HP+False Life).
Note that the 4th level stat bump goes to CON, giving me hit points retroactively. So at 4th, I've got 3d10(10+6+6)+d8(5)+CON(2+2+2+2)=35HP, plus FCB (so up to 39HP). That doesn't seem that bad, does it?
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This build wasn't planning on employing Dervish Dance; the dip is purely for Battle Dance. The idea is that (after the first round, where I need a move action to activate) a +2 to hit and damage goes a lot farther when you have 2 attacks/round.
To get the best use out of it, play an archer or a monk.
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Necro! I just discovered a new potential Mojo Mechanic: the Inquisitor's "Judgment" ability. They're only 3/4 BAB, but have good skills and I'll be buffing my attacks plenty anyway.
Also, there just happens to be an Inquisition which lets me use WIS instead of CHA for social skills - so the wise sage can really shine through (can't get much more flavorful than WIS to Diplomacy!) and also dump CHA.
I can't seem to stay away from the idea of the Urban Barb dip, though. I just love the "fast mode" Mojo of the DEX rage. (I also like the idea of having more than one Mojo.)
Finesse Inquisitor/Barb
Half-Elf [Ancestral Arms: Wakizashi (light/1d6/18-20/x2/S or P)]
STR 14
DEX 17 (15+2)
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 07
Traits: Berserker of the Society (+3 rounds/day rage), Reactionary (+2 Initiative)
01:Barbarian1[Urban][Controlled Rage 9rd/day][Crowd Control], Weapon Finesse
02:Inquisitor1[Spellbreaker][Conversion Inquisition][Judgment 1/day][Stern Gaze][Strong Willed][1st level spells]
03:Inquisitor2[Cunning Initiative][Detect Alignment][Track], Two-Weapon Fighting
04:Inquisitor3[Defense Against Magic][Foil Casting][DEX+1=18]
05:Inquisitor4[Judgment 2/day][2nd level spells], FEAT (Quickdraw?)
There are two big questions here:
1. Do I really need that Barb dip? Inquisitor is getting something at every level; maybe I should just monoclass?
2. Do I use a buckler? Gives me -1 to hit on my off-hand attacks, but gives me +1 AC (plus enhancements) when I'm not full-attacking.
My DPR isn't fantastic (1d6+2/18-20/TWF). Crit range and TWF help, but won't do much to get me past DR. If I save up and eventually get an Agile weapon that'll help immensely - but if I don't, will I still do alright? Of course, this guy has 7 skill ranks/level and good social skills to boot, so he's not relying solely on DPR to be worthwhile.
Thoughts?
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Thinking about it more, the Finesse/TWF Inquisitor should probably not be Ancestral Arms but instead use an already-accessible weapon and use human feats to get online. Something like this:
Human
STR 14
DEX 17 (15+2)
CON 15
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 07
Traits: Reactionary (+2 Init), Something Else
00:[Human Feat:Weapon Finesse]
01:Inquisitor1[Spellbreaker][Conversion Inquisition][Judgment 1/day][Stern Gaze][Strong Willed][1st level spells], Two-Weapon Fighting
02:Inquisitor2[Cunning Initiative][Detect Alignment][Track]
03:Inquisitor3[Defense Against Magic][Foil Casting], FEAT (likely Dodge or Toughness)
04:Inquisitor4[Judgment 2/day][2nd level spells][DEX+1=18]
05:Inquisitor5[Bane][Discern Lies], FEAT
I'm not sure what weapon I'd be using; either a simple weapon (sickle or dagger) or a deity's favored weapon (not sure if there are any decent light weapons favored by PFS-legal deities; I'd have to check).
In any case, I'd be TWFing for about 1d6+2 (1d6+1 off-hand).
AC would be 10+4(DEX)+1(Dodge)+5(Kikko Armor)=20 plus enhancements. Seems reasonable for a TWF character, yes?
And here's another idea:
Human
STR 12
DEX 18 (16+2)
CON 15
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 07
Traits: Berserker of the Society (+3rd/day rage), Reactionary (+2 Init)
00:[Human Bonus Feat:Dodge]
01:Barbarian1[Urban][Controlled Rage 9rd/day][Crowd Control], Weapon Finesse
02:Inquisitor1[Spellbreaker][Conversion Inquisition][Judgment 1/day][Stern Gaze][Strong Willed][1st level spells]
03:Inquisitor2[Cunning Initiative][Detect Alignment][Track], Dervish Dance
04:Inquisitor3[Defense Against Magic][Foil Casting][CON+1=16]
05:Inquisitor4[Judgment 2/day][2nd level spells], FEAT
In this version, I have an AC of 19 until I can afford a mithral breastplate (can only use DDance feat in light armor), at which point I have 21 AC plus enhancements.
I'm only using one weapon, but hit for 1d6+4 (or 1d6+6 while raging) and keep a hand free for spellcasting if need be. I have an awesome Fort save, okay Reflex, and good Will with the ability to roll twice on all saves against mind-affecting effects.
I can't decide which I like better. :P
I like the Dervish Inquisitor better, though if kukris are legal they might be a cool looking weapon for your TWFer if you decided on that route. Also, would dipping into your triple-archetyped ranger for a level or 2 be worth it in your TWF build do you think?
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I like the Dervish Inquisitor better, though if kukris are legal they might be a cool looking weapon for your TWFer if you decided on that route.
Kukris are martial, and the Inquisitor only gets simple plus some ranged options and deity's favored weapon. Know any deities who favor the kukri? Because yes, it would be cool. :)
Alternatively, I could use moderately-cool daggers and take the River Rat trait for +1 damage. Come to think of it, +1 damage versus +1 threat range is probably better. Plus I have two different damage types with the daggers.
Also, would dipping into your triple-archetyped ranger for a level or 2 be worth it in your TWF build do you think?
I'm hesitant. I don't really gain that much without making it 2 levels (for the bonus feat), and that really slows down the features of the Inquisitor. I think I'd more readily dip fighter at level 1 for the bonus feat and then go straight Inquisitor.